THE MATCHDAY THREAD Discuss ICT & other games in this thread as they happen Inverness CT -V- Queen of the South PREVIEW January 5th 2019 @ 3:00pm, Caledonian Stadium Follow us on Twitter Follow us on Facebook Go to the Chatroom Media Coverage   AUDIO COVERAGE BBC Sportsound BBC Sportsound [UK Only]   LIVE TEXT (ONLINE) Sporting Life BBC    VIDEO SPFL YouTube Channel ICT Official YouTube Channel   TEAM LINEUPS    Tweets by @ICTFC Tweets by @ICTFC

2 hours ago, TheMantis said:

 

 

I’m not buying all this, you say you like debate and then you imply that people who disagree with you are sheep while giving the old Devil’s Advocate excuse  ?

I gave you plenty of facts and figures to debate with in these two posts but you’re not offering much to refute them  except deflection. In all seriousness, how long have you been supporting ICT? You joined the forum in March which is not a crime in itself, but if you’re going to claim any credibility then you have to be able to refer back to happier days and better players which is why most people are peed off by where we are.

I regret if big Jordan is daft enough to listen to gossip on here. I always encourage the players at games but on a forum they’re fair game.

As you have said yourself you don’t get to as many games now, yet you seem to want to criticise players without actually watching the 90 mins in the stadium. Now I understand you may have valid reasons for not being there.

You have a problem with me using the term Sheep but isn’t that like being a sheep and following other people’s opinions rather than watching the 90 mins and coming to your own opinion.

I agree with you that some are peed off because we have been at a higher level but that is a problem of fans not accepting where we actually are. Expectation sometimes can be a hindrance and clouds ones judgement of players on the field of play. The booing of Polworth when he was subbed yesterday was a disgrace . We have to accept we are playing in the Championship which is a tough league Rangers and Hibs  found that out and took 3 seasons to get back to premiership and they have far bigger resources than ourselves . Now  Dundee Utd are in their 3rd year down here yet some of our fans can’t accept its where we are.

Its clear that some fans on here don’t seem to like our strikers or think they are any good especially White who gets stick constantly.

You quoted Shankland who is having an excellent season but he plays in a team who plays with two up top , he has also been with Ayr last season in a league below getting used to playing with his team mates and being in a winning side. Also Shankland starts constantly which is a massive benefit to strikers. Shankland is proving to be more prolific than ours but that does not prove that ours are duds.

When I last checked  only 3 ( Dobbie Shankland and McKay) players have better ratios than White yet many of our fans say he is a dud when clearly the facts don’t support that particular opinion. However it may be just a preference of a type of player and White doesn’t fit the profile of some folks preference , that’s fine in my book, but some of the abuse he gets on here is incredible when you actually look at what he has achieved in only his first few months with us.

Our strikers are in and out of team as the manager chops and changes the strikers , and I feel we have started with one up top too many times so based on all of this Our three strikers have done well to have the stats they have achieved but it’s still not good enough for some fans.

I stand by my quoting of stats 

 Goals / Starts/ratio

White 9 goals /15 starts:/ 1 goal every 1.66 starts

Austin 4 goals / 7 starts / 1 goal every 1.75 starts

Oakley 5 goals /11 starts/ 1 goal every 2.2 starts 

Most clubs would be happy to have strikers who are scoring a goal every couple of games. We have two who have better ratios than that and one who is just outside of that , but the problem is we only start one of them at a time.Austin is a forgotten man for starting games yet has decent stats, we started the season playing two up and won four games out of five . 

So Mantis do you agree the stats are decent or not.?

I have no problem with yourself or others  having a different opinion to mine, but to keep on just blaming the strikers after every performance is surely not an accurate reflection of the problems of the team.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 20197 yr by Gregor

Have to agree with Gregor. If you only play one player up front and no genuine attacking midfielder, then, unless they are far too good for this division, there's going to be a lack of goals.

Abandon this 4-2-3-1 formation. There's patently enough evidence that we dominate possession without penetration. Take a chance with two strikers. It's the only way to have a chance of scoring enough goals.

That was quite a read and leaves me drained.

It does raise the question as to whether or nor Robbo is the Man for the Job? But, if so, then who is and where would he or she come from?

Unless there is a dramatic rise in effort and an upped tempo then this season is a bust. Many parts of the Ross County game  showed us up well but that too faded and R C were in command again by the end of the game and accordingly won that game. A winning team does nor fade  or throw in the towel  because the spurts of energy and effort has a fading spell. They keep at it  and that is why I ask..."are they as  fit as they should be for professional players or are they very young boys who need a lot of encouragement? "

The team seems to be disorganised and lacking solid direction --either that or the players we have  just won't be able to handle it?

 

8 hours ago, starchief said:

Have to agree with Gregor. If you only play one player up front and no genuine attacking midfielder, then, unless they are far too good for this division, there's going to be a lack of goals.

Abandon this 4-2-3-1 formation. There's patently enough evidence that we dominate possession without penetration. Take a chance with two strikers. It's the only way to have a chance of scoring enough goals.

Went with 2 up top at the end of Queens game and got overrun in midfield loosing us the game no enough energy in our midfield to go 2 up top which is why Robbo doesn't and tbf we do create enough chances that a decent striker should score a fair few ! White actually played ok against queens ! I also don't get how some fans think it's the support causing poor home performances I never abuse players at games but come on they're the main players look at the game against Dunfermline end of last season belting support why coz it was obvs the players gave it there all!

15 minutes ago, Alan Simpson said:

Went with 2 up top at the end of Queens game and got overrun in midfield loosing us the game no enough energy in our midfield to go 2 up top which is why Robbo doesn't and tbf we do create enough chances that a decent striker should score a fair few ! White actually played ok against queens ! I also don't get how some fans think it's the support causing poor home performances I never abuse players at games but come on they're the main players look at the game against Dunfermline end of last season belting support why coz it was obvs the players gave it there all!

Actually, when we went 2 up top we scored 5 minutes later.  The problem was how we then dropped back defending the lead rather than continuing to do what got us the goal.  Having just put 2 up top, dropping back therefore made us more exposed in midfield.

I also think White did OK with a very solid overall contribution to the team performance. Sometimes he drops back a fair bit to help with the defence and he made a lot of good contributions in the build up play.  If he is played in that way, having 2 up front makes a lot of sense allowing for a more fluid system which can make it harder for defences to pick up.

16 hours ago, Gregor said:

As you have said yourself you don’t get to as many games now, yet you seem to want to criticise players without actually watching the 90 mins in the stadium. Now I understand you may have valid reasons for not being there.

You have a problem with me using the term Sheep but isn’t that like being a sheep and following other people’s opinions rather than watching the 90 mins and coming to your own opinion.

I agree with you that some are peed off because we have been at a higher level but that is a problem of fans not accepting where we actually are. Expectation sometimes can be a hindrance and clouds ones judgement of players on the field of play. The booing of Polworth when he was subbed yesterday was a disgrace . We have to accept we are playing in the Championship which is a tough league Rangers and Hibs  found that out and took 3 seasons to get back to premiership and they have far bigger resources than ourselves . Now  Dundee Utd are in their 3rd year down here yet some of our fans can’t accept its where we are.

Its clear that some fans on here don’t seem to like our strikers or think they are any good especially White who gets stick constantly.

You quoted Shankland who is having an excellent season but he plays in a team who plays with two up top , he has also been with Ayr last season in a league below getting used to playing with his team mates and being in a winning side. Also Shankland starts constantly which is a massive benefit to strikers. Shankland is proving to be more prolific than ours but that does not prove that ours are duds.

When I last checked  only 3 ( Dobbie Shankland and McKay) players have better ratios than White yet many of our fans say he is a dud when clearly the facts don’t support that particular opinion. However it may be just a preference of a type of player and White doesn’t fit the profile of some folks preference , that’s fine in my book, but some of the abuse he gets on here is incredible when you actually look at what he has achieved in only his first few months with us.

Our strikers are in and out of team as the manager chops and changes the strikers , and I feel we have started with one up top too many times so based on all of this Our three strikers have done well to have the stats they have achieved but it’s still not good enough for some fans.

I stand by my quoting of stats 

 Goals / Starts/ratio

White 9 goals /15 starts:/ 1 goal every 1.66 starts

Austin 4 goals / 7 starts / 1 goal every 1.75 starts

Oakley 5 goals /11 starts/ 1 goal every 2.2 starts 

Most clubs would be happy to have strikers who are scoring a goal every couple of games. We have two who have better ratios than that and one who is just outside of that , but the problem is we only start one of them at a time.Austin is a forgotten man for starting games yet has decent stats, we started the season playing two up and won four games out of five . 

So Mantis do you agree the stats are decent or not.?

I have no problem with yourself or others  having a different opinion to mine, but to keep on just blaming the strikers after every performance is surely not an accurate reflection of the problems of the team.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gregor as much as you love Jordan the man love is obvious but he is the 11th best striker in the championship.  As you love stats goal to mins played ratio of 5 goals in 1044 mins played which equates to 1 goal every 2.42 start. Oakley has 4 goals in 640 mins played in championship giving him a goal every 1.82 games. White has played a full 11.6 games with a 5 goal return Oakley 7.1 full games with 4 goal return. White playing a full 4.5 games more than Oakley scoring one more goal. You tell me who is the better striker in this league this season. Previous accolades at different clubs in different seasons with different players make no difference to the here and now. 

Edited January 7, 20197 yr by MorayJaggie

These stats are increasingly boring. Facts are simples. We have scored only 26 goals in 19 games which is less than every team above us (excluding Morton), while we have actually only conceded 22 which is less than several teams higher in the league. Goals win games and we dont have enough.

Churning out the same stats in different formats for indivduals does little other than fail to address that Robbo has tried many player options and combinations yet has failed to find one that works. There is a clear lack of goals from other areas of the pitch - the midfield offers little and the defense aren't scoring at set pieces.

We need creativity & goals from the middle of the park - perhaps then the strikers will contribute more, they dont have the ability to create for themselves which means we need to either alter how we play to get the best out of them.

4 hours ago, bdu98196 said:

These stats are increasingly boring. Facts are simples. We have scored only 26 goals in 19 games which is less than every team above us (excluding Morton), while we have actually only conceded 22 which is less than several teams higher in the league. Goals win games and we dont have enough.

Churning out the same stats in different formats for indivduals does little other than fail to address that Robbo has tried many player options and combinations yet has failed to find one that works. There is a clear lack of goals from other areas of the pitch - the midfield offers little and the defense aren't scoring at set pieces.

We need creativity & goals from the middle of the park - perhaps then the strikers will contribute more, they dont have the ability to create for themselves which means we need to either alter how we play to get the best out of them.

Unfortunately he has never tried White and Oakley together also he has never tried Walsh up top with any other striker either so Robbo hasn’t tried all that he could try.

5 hours ago, bdu98196 said:

These stats are increasingly boring. Facts are simples. We have scored only 26 goals in 19 games which is less than every team above us (excluding Morton), while we have actually only conceded 22 which is less than several teams higher in the league. Goals win games and we dont have enough.

Churning out the same stats in different formats for indivduals does little other than fail to address that Robbo has tried many player options and combinations yet has failed to find one that works. There is a clear lack of goals from other areas of the pitch - the midfield offers little and the defense aren't scoring at set pieces.

We need creativity & goals from the middle of the park - perhaps then the strikers will contribute more, they dont have the ability to create for themselves which means we need to either alter how we play to get the best out of them.

Listening to talk sport this morning and Danny Murphy was discussing Defoe going to Rangers , his comment was  get the ball to his feet and he will score goals , the same goes for most centre forward as they depend on good service.

5 hours ago, MorayJaggie said:

Gregor as much as you love Jordan the man love is obvious but he is the 11th best striker in the championship.  As you love stats goal to mins played ratio of 5 goals in 1044 mins played which equates to 1 goal every 2.42 start. Oakley has 4 goals in 640 mins played in championship giving him a goal every 1.82 games. White has played a full 11.6 games with a 5 goal return Oakley 7.1 full games with 4 goal return. White playing a full 4.5 games more than Oakley scoring one more goal. You tell me who is the better striker in this league this season. Previous accolades at different clubs in different seasons with different players make no difference to the here and now. 

 

My point of quoting stats was to counter  the argument that our strikers are rubbish . I think we have 3 good strikers and would like 2 of them getting starts together it wasn’t to say which one was better as they all have similar stats,  but Austin and White have more goals and experience under their belts than Oakley.

Edited January 7, 20197 yr by Gregor

What capabilities do you see that makes you think 2 of our strikers who haven't had match time together will be the solution? Robbo sees these guys in training so clearly doesn't think they complement each other so what is it you see?

3 minutes ago, bdu98196 said:

What capabilities do you see that makes you think 2 of our strikers who haven't had match time together will be the solution? Robbo sees these guys in training so clearly doesn't think they complement each other so what is it you see?

I honestly don’t think you will know until you try at times mate. I mean centre forwards have changed to centre half’s at times in careers.

Also a recent one is the guy from Hearts who was signed for Cardiff as a right back and now plays as Centre forward.

Sometimes managers have a mental block about things and others are braver and try different formations and players in different positions, one thing is sure that 4231 with same players isn’t getting us the wins that we crave.

I feel that Oakley would run into Channels and in behind the defender where White when played as a two can come a bit deeper as he did with Austin on Saturday. 

If we don’t try we won’t know is where I’m coming from. I’m sure they were tried together in a pre season game which Barry Wilson they played well together.

However we haven’t tried them in a competitive game from the start.

 

We started the season 4-4-2 and it was largely unsuccessful. Our better performances and results came when we were 4-5-1/4-2-3-1 whatever you want to call it. The issue is CM, Chalmers nor Trafford are strong enough to play in a two. Hence the need to sacrifice a striker and play with 3 in the middle. Personally from what I have seen, Oakley would be my number 1 choice. But perhaps a run of games for White will bear fruits. We are stuck with what we have by the looks of it. Hope he finds better/more performances/goals/stats soon. How long is Oakley out for btw?

According to Robbo in the paper he was likely to require a scan so might be a while.

As Ron de Legge once said to me "Johndo, 99 percent of all statistics only tell 49 percent of the story" - and then Benjamin Disraeli added "There are three types of lies -- lies, damn lies, and statistics". May as well throw my tuppence in. We have no stand out player - We have no leader/motivator. We are at our best when we have a solid enuff back four but we also need two dogged central midfielders who look for the simple pass. Then pace and width on either side. I have always favoured 2 up front BUT are Oakley and White simply both not pacy enuff and are like two peas in a pod ? To me we need a "penalty box" striker and a target man - neither easy to procure. The answer could be McGregor and MacKay.

22 hours ago, Gregor said:

As you have said yourself you don’t get to as many games now, yet you seem to want to criticise players without actually watching the 90 mins in the stadium. Now I understand you may have valid reasons for not being there.

You have a problem with me using the term Sheep but isn’t that like being a sheep and following other people’s opinions rather than watching the 90 mins and coming to your own opinion.

I agree with you that some are peed off because we have been at a higher level but that is a problem of fans not accepting where we actually are. Expectation sometimes can be a hindrance and clouds ones judgement of players on the field of play. The booing of Polworth when he was subbed yesterday was a disgrace . We have to accept we are playing in the Championship which is a tough league Rangers and Hibs  found that out and took 3 seasons to get back to premiership and they have far bigger resources than ourselves . Now  Dundee Utd are in their 3rd year down here yet some of our fans can’t accept its where we are.

Its clear that some fans on here don’t seem to like our strikers or think they are any good especially White who gets stick constantly.

You quoted Shankland who is having an excellent season but he plays in a team who plays with two up top , he has also been with Ayr last season in a league below getting used to playing with his team mates and being in a winning side. Also Shankland starts constantly which is a massive benefit to strikers. Shankland is proving to be more prolific than ours but that does not prove that ours are duds.

When I last checked  only 3 ( Dobbie Shankland and McKay) players have better ratios than White yet many of our fans say he is a dud when clearly the facts don’t support that particular opinion. However it may be just a preference of a type of player and White doesn’t fit the profile of some folks preference , that’s fine in my book, but some of the abuse he gets on here is incredible when you actually look at what he has achieved in only his first few months with us.

Our strikers are in and out of team as the manager chops and changes the strikers , and I feel we have started with one up top too many times so based on all of this Our three strikers have done well to have the stats they have achieved but it’s still not good enough for some fans.

I stand by my quoting of stats 

 Goals / Starts/ratio

White 9 goals /15 starts:/ 1 goal every 1.66 starts

Austin 4 goals / 7 starts / 1 goal every 1.75 starts

Oakley 5 goals /11 starts/ 1 goal every 2.2 starts 

Most clubs would be happy to have strikers who are scoring a goal every couple of games. We have two who have better ratios than that and one who is just outside of that , but the problem is we only start one of them at a time.Austin is a forgotten man for starting games yet has decent stats, we started the season playing two up and won four games out of five . 

So Mantis do you agree the stats are decent or not.?

I have no problem with yourself or others  having a different opinion to mine, but to keep on just blaming the strikers after every performance is surely not an accurate reflection of the problems of the team.

Right Gregor. I’ve spent all day hanging about the royal infirmary and I’m still here... plus I hate posting on a phone so I’ll be brief and then I’m out ?

i said I don’t get to many home games these days. I get to the away games though. 

A lot of this essay of yours is nothing to do with me, you’re just venting and you’re tarring me with the same brush as all the posters put together. I never boo players, especially not Polworth. It’s not a massive deal to me if Robbo plays two strikers but we haven’t got the players for a 4-4-2 as Polworth + A.N. Other (e.g.Trafford )would get overrun in CM. Then there’s possibly  3 at the back in a 3-5-2 which is another story. 

Your stats for Jordan seem to be heavily skewed by the hat trick against City. Apologies if not so, but it kind of proves my point. One or two posters above have made my points for me so I won’t repeat them. Anyway, this thread is just a circular argument, you obviously feel passionately about it but, as I said, I’m out. 

46 minutes ago, TheMantis said:

Right Gregor. I’ve spent all day hanging about the royal infirmary and I’m still here... plus I hate posting on a phone so I’ll be brief and then I’m out ?

i said I don’t get to many home games these days. I get to the away games though. 

A lot of this essay of yours is nothing to do with me, you’re just venting and you’re tarring me with the same brush as all the posters put together. I never boo players, especially not Polworth. It’s not a massive deal to me if Robbo plays two strikers but we haven’t got the players for a 4-4-2 as Polworth + A.N. Other (e.g.Trafford )would get overrun in CM. Then there’s possibly  3 at the back in a 3-5-2 which is another story. 

Your stats for Jordan seem to be heavily skewed by the hat trick against City. Apologies if not so, but it kind of proves my point. One or two posters above have made my points for me so I won’t repeat them. Anyway, this thread is just a circular argument, you obviously feel passionately about it but, as I said, I’m out. 

No problem mate hope your health is ok 

Rather sheepish reply ? 

1 hour ago, IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER said:

Rather sheepish reply ? 

If you are referring to my reply then I dont think so , health is far more important than football.

1 hour ago, Gregor said:

If you are referring to my reply then I dont think so , health is far more important than football.

Bill Shankly would disagree...

We are just not good enough. We seem to lack fitness and ideas. We have no actual  leader on the pitch. When we do occasionally  play good football it only lasts for a brief period. We seem unable to apply sustained pressure and break teams down. What really gets to me is apart from a period good football which normally lasts about 10 mins at the start of the game we turn into headless chickens run out ideas. We are just not good enough no leaders on and off the park.

1 hour ago, bigman said:

We are just not good enough. We seem to lack fitness and ideas. We have no actual  leader on the pitch. When we do occasionally  play good football it only lasts for a brief period. We seem unable to apply sustained pressure and break teams down. What really gets to me is apart from a period good football which normally lasts about 10 mins at the start of the game we turn into headless chickens run out ideas. We are just not good enough no leaders on and off the park.

the sad fact is we are getting what we pay for

10 minutes ago, caleyboy said:

the sad fact is we are getting what we pay for

And we are paying what we can afford to be at the level we are. 6th highest budget in Championship and 6th place.

I'm sure someone on here will have all the figures and statistics for footfall and turnover at clubs - right now we after many years of over-achieving are heading towards where we should be based on the finances and size. Plenty bigger clubs than us have spent years in the Championship with no sign of getting out, so what makes anyone think we are going to be different?

1 minute ago, bdu98196 said:

And we are paying what we can afford to be at the level we are. 6th highest budget in Championship and 6th place.

I'm sure someone on here will have all the figures and statistics for footfall and turnover at clubs - right now we after many years of over-achieving are heading towards where we should be based on the finances and size. Plenty bigger clubs than us have spent years in the Championship with no sign of getting out, so what makes anyone think we are going to be different?

our problem is that nobody seems to have the answer to our lack of support and lack of funds. Until this guru is found our support will just need to accept the obvious.

Pretty sure Robbo himself has said we can now only offer players a few hundred pounds to play for us whereas before we were able to offer well into four figures a week to sign for ICT. That's the price we are paying for dropping out of the top flight and missing out on TV cash. It was hard enough to get players up to Inverness so I feel for Robbo trying to bring in new players on 1/4 of what previous managers used to work with.

Sadly our fans seem to be drifting away quicker than snow off a dyke which is very concerning and isn't going to help the budget that Robertson has to work with.