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Edited September 11, 20159 yr by Scotty

Whether he went to ground or not should be irrelevant with respect to whether the Hearts player got sent off or not.  If the officials saw the punch, regardless of how hard it may have been, then the player should be off.  If the officials did not see the punch then the player should stay on.  Going to ground after the punch was thrown cannot change whether the officials saw the punch or not.  If the victim of a punch goes to ground then the referee needs also to consider whether that is a reasonable response to the punch that was thrown.  If the referee decides it wasn't then the "victim" might also receive a card.  Best to stay on one's feet IMO but we do need the clubs and the footballing public to expect firmer action from referees and the SFA to address all the cheating nonsense off the ball that has become such an integral part of the modern game.

The bit I have highlighted is total codswallop.  The moment the referee makes the decision that Oshaniwa has committed a foul, then Sho-Silva's reaction does not come under consideration...unless he retaliates.  He could have gone down and rolled all the way to the centre circle, it would have still not resulted in him getting booked.

I don't think it is me that is talking total codswallop.  The rules of the game state that a player should be cautioned if he "attempts to deceive the referee by feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled."  These are two separate things and therefore with respect to feigning injury it is irrelevant whether the player has actually been fouled or not.  Equally, any action the referee may have taken against the player perpetrating the foul is also irrelevant.  Sho-Silva's did not pretend to be fouled because he clearly was fouled, but what he may have done was to feign injury in a misguided attempt to draw the officials' attention to the incident.  If the referee felt that the foul could not have led to the level of injury ShoSilva's actions were indicating, then under the laws of the game he should have cautioned Sho-Silva for feigning injury.  I am offering absolutely no opinion as to whether Sho-Silva's reaction was inappropriate or not, all I'm saying is that because he went to ground, the referee had a decision to make which he would not have had to make had Sho-Sliva stayed on his feet.

Sorry, but you are wrong.  It is only an offence to feign injury in order to win a foul or in an attempt to get an opponent cautioned. If the rule was as per your interpretation, then every time a player was fouled and took an extra roll or held a shin and then got back up, they would be booked....and that doesn't happen.  The reason it doesn't happen is because the rules don't say it should.

In short....Sho-Silva did not pretend he got punched.....he DID get punched and the rule you quote (which is the rule on simulation) does not get any consideration the moment the referee determines that he was fouled.

Just because players don't get cautioned every time for the minor types of simulation you quote does not mean that such actions aren't against the rules.  By your very flawed logic you might as well say that because players don't always get booked for holding and shirt pulling in the penalty area that the rules don't say that holding and shirt pulling is not allowed.

Presumably you can provide some quote or reference to support your opinion that the rules on simulation do not apply if the referee judges that the player actually was fouled?  What you are saying is that it is perfectly OK under the laws of the game for a player to feign injury in order to make an offence look worse than it actually was, provided that the referee actually awards a foul.  You must accept that whether the referee awards a foul or not, the intention and actions of the player simulating is exactly the same and therefore should logically be dealt with in the same way. 

 

Starting to think you're on the wind-up now.  How can a player be booked on the rules pertaining to simulation after the referee gives a decision which, in and of itself, states that there has been no simulation.

I'm not making an argument that "sometimes players don't get booked for it".  I'm saying that players "NEVER" get booked for it....and the reason for that is because the rule is not there to be applied in the strange manner that you are suggesting.  The evidence (and logic) speaks for itself.

That's my last post on the subject.

I take it that is your last post on the subject because you cannot produce any wording in FIFA or SFA regs to back up your ridiculous position?  To say that a player will only be dealt with for an offence depending on whether another player is dealt with for a different, albeit related, offence is patently absurd. _Although I do accept there are things FIFA and the SFA say which are patently absurd!)

The rule I quote above states that a player should be cautioned if he "attempts to deceive the referee by feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled."  Clearly he was not pretending to have been fouled because we can all see that he was struck, but the other and quite separate part of the simulation law is about feigning injury.  As far as I am aware, the law simply refers to feigning injury and does not differentiate between feigning injury when the referee awards a foul and when he does not. I may be wrong - but if anyone thinks I am, please provide the evidence!

Let's be clear, I am in no way accusing Sho-Silva of simulation.  All I am saying is the fact he went to ground gave the referee a decision to make under the simulation rule.  In my view he made the right decision by not cautioning Tobi.    

Bottom line here is that, as a general rule, just because you actually have been fouled does not make it OK to feign injury.  I have backed up my view by quoting the FIFA rule on the subject.  It appears that CaleyD thinks referees have been told it is perfectly OK for players to feign injury as long as they actually were fouled but offers no evidence to support such a bizarre point of view.

By the way, I thought Sho-Silva was a breath of fresh air when he came on.  He was hardworking, enthusiastic and positive in his approach - an extremely welcome addition to the club.

 

Alexander's reaction was interesting and shines a light on the Sho-Silva incident. He clearly saw the incident at very close hand and publicly b@ll@cked his own player, at the same time trying to pick Sho-Silva up. Alexander obviously felt Oshinawa was the villain of the piece. It was a clear red card IMO (but only after seeing the slow-mo) but Sho-Silva should not have gone to ground, irrespective of whether the red card would not have been waved if he had stayed on his feet. It was simply wrong and hopefully that is explained to him by our best professionals and it doesn't happen again - he's a young lad and will be fine with the right guidance.

 If Gary Cornish goes down as easily as that in his big fight tomorrow, the fight will be over within 30 seconds!

Well actually.....

'No Sho-Silva without punch'

There's no doubt that the Hearts player deserved to be sent off. It's simply a red card if you aim a punch or even raise your hands aggressively towards another player's face - regardless of how 'successful' said punch was! Even a 'missed punch' is treated the same as a full-blown haymaker, as the intent was there. So, in my mind the ref got it spot on.
However, the reaction of Sho-Silva was poor. He exaggerated AND feigned injury. A disgraceful example for kids watching.
I'm not going to join the hypocrites who see any opposition players 'going-to-ground' easily to influence the referee as cheats, when ours doing the same are simply being 'streetwise'.

In a few months time, there may be an incident in our box, at a corner. where Josh is jostling with a player and for a moment possibly gets hold of his jersey. The striker goes down and gets a penalty, when he clearly could have stayed on his feet, but has dropped as he's aware 'the tug' has gone un-noticed - but needed to get the referee's 'attention'. Cries of 'cheats' on here.

There's a bigger picture though than an incident in a bog standard, Friday night Scottish League fixture. The integrity of the game and where it's now going.
This 'going down holding the face' culture is ruining football, as is diving - so, instead of condoning him because he happens to temporarily be in an ICT top, grow-a-pair, and criticise this behaviour as unacceptable - it's a cancer on the game.

The English FA are trying to clamp down on this crap. Down there, retrospective bans can be now issued to players who've tried to con the ref with simulation or exaggeration.
The first 'culprit' is a player from obscure, non-league outfit, Welling United. Ironically, where Sho-Silva's been 'learning' his trade!

Don't want to be too harsh on the boy as he's young, but he needs to learn his lesson - I suppose that's part of the reason he's up here - but, Yogi should drop him for the next game, out of principle.

Reminds me of the Christmas Carol

With The words " And so it continued by day and by night "

Its all over forget it

The sending off was simple. If Silva didn't go down Oshaniwa would have stayed on the pitch for punching another player. The rules are very simple. You can't punch another player and he needed to make the ref aware of that

The ref wasn't sure what had happened but the linesman on the Main Stand side saw it and spoke to the ref via ear piece. I didn't see a flag go up from where I was sitting but the commentators on BBC Scotland had said the linesman had seen it straight away, this was confirmed when during the highlights on tv we see the ref glance towards the standside official and his manner after looked like he was listening to the official as he walked over to the goal mouth. Its neither here nor there the way Silva reacted, the result would have still been a straight red anyway for the Hearts player.

Hold on a minute, I think we won the game.

Hold on a minute, I think we won the game.

Thank goodness someone noticed !!!!!!!

Has anyone actually spoken to the lad about why he went down? he was quite shocked when it happened and could well have thought to #himself hang on I need a moment, so flopped down to get ready for the incoming corner..........just as plausible as some of the comments........... hung without jury again in some instances.

Great win and very well done the new boys.

Hold on a minute, I think we won the game.

Absolutely and looking forward to next week's game now.

Alexander's reaction was interesting and shines a light on the Sho-Silva incident. He clearly saw the incident at very close hand and publicly b@ll@cked his own player, at the same time trying to pick Sho-Silva up. Alexander obviously felt Oshinawa was the villain of the piece. It was a clear red card IMO (but only after seeing the slow-mo) but Sho-Silva should not have gone to ground, irrespective of whether the red card would not have been waved if he had stayed on his feet. It was simply wrong and hopefully that is explained to him by our best professionals and it doesn't happen again - he's a young lad and will be fine with the right guidance.

wow, a "dislike" for daring to suggest that going down holding the face when it didn't really hurt is poor, irrespective of the colours a guy is wearing?! Completely agree with Sneckboy - this kind if behaviour is ruining the game of football and I can't condone it simply because the guy involved was playing for us at the time. 

Edited September 13, 20159 yr by PerfICT

The sending off was simple. If Silva didn't go down Oshaniwa would have stayed on the pitch for punching another player. The rules are very simple. You can't punch another player and he needed to make the ref aware of that

Can't agree. Yes there was contact and if the ref sees it it's a red card but there was never anything like enough contact to send him down. That was pure gamesmanship. I realise it's part of the modern game but I'd rather not see our players indulge in it.

Neither would I but, as seen in the Hamilton game, if other teams do this and con the referee, we need to get much more streetwise.

There's no doubt that the Hearts player deserved to be sent off. It's simply a red card if you aim a punch or even raise your hands aggressively towards another player's face - regardless of how 'successful' said punch was! Even a 'missed punch' is treated the same as a full-blown haymaker, as the intent was there. So, in my mind the ref got it spot on.
However, the reaction of Sho-Silva was poor. He exaggerated AND feigned injury. A disgraceful example for kids watching.
I'm not going to join the hypocrites who see any opposition players 'going-to-ground' easily to influence the referee as cheats, when ours doing the same are simply being 'streetwise'.

In a few months time, there may be an incident in our box, at a corner. where Josh is jostling with a player and for a moment possibly gets hold of his jersey. The striker goes down and gets a penalty, when he clearly could have stayed on his feet, but has dropped as he's aware 'the tug' has gone un-noticed - but needed to get the referee's 'attention'. Cries of 'cheats' on here.

There's a bigger picture though than an incident in a bog standard, Friday night Scottish League fixture. The integrity of the game and where it's now going.
This 'going down holding the face' culture is ruining football, as is diving - so, instead of condoning him because he happens to temporarily be in an ICT top, grow-a-pair, and criticise this behaviour as unacceptable - it's a cancer on the game.

The English FA are trying to clamp down on this crap. Down there, retrospective bans can be now issued to players who've tried to con the ref with simulation or exaggeration.
The first 'culprit' is a player from obscure, non-league outfit, Welling United. Ironically, where Sho-Silva's been 'learning' his trade!

Don't want to be too harsh on the boy as he's young, but he needs to learn his lesson - I suppose that's part of the reason he's up here - but, Yogi should drop him for the next game, out of principle.

with regard to your last paragraph, what absolute nonsense to suggest he should be dropped. Agree that cheating or simulation is aa problem within the game but that is, in part, down to poor refereeing in many cases. 

You don't raise your hands. Every player knows this. It's that simple. You don't give a ref an easy excuse to send you off. And hitting someone in the face is the daftest thing to do. His own fault. Our player perhaps didn't cover himself in glory. He's probably not thought about it. Other than I've been hit, I should go down. He's young and I'm sure Yogi will remind him it's not really appreciated in Scotland. It's nothing to really worry about or discuss. 

We're missing the real Storey of the night in that we were Miles better than we've been of late and won the game well. 

Looking forward to the next game now and I think the players will be too. Great! 

Only folk bothered by this are on here it seems. Didn't even get mentioned by the pundits on sportscene! For goodness sake move on. 

So Sho-Silva was sho-boating eh? 

It all goes to show that showing off works.

 Shoot! Them shocking shenanigans are not suitable for ICT. Hope you agree but suits me if you beg to differ.

 

Meantime, back at the ranch. ......"Slainthe!"

Phearts - the true storey

Before

“The boys are all good, feel fresh, ready to go to Inverness and go for the three points,” Neilson told the Evening News. “It’s a good game to have but any game is a good game to have after Hamilton..............we’re in good shape going up to Inverness.”

After

ROBBIE NEILSON admits Hearts got a wake-up call in Inverness last night and warned his players they must fight much harder for points in the Scottish Premiership. Neilson said he refused to get carried away by the impressive start because he knew difficult times would come.

Message to ICT

Never, ever underestimate the opposition. Dundee United will be extremely dangerous this weekend and one win against a cocky young Hearts Manager was just a start.

i have no issue with the lad going down, Hearts player got what was deserved for raising his hands. simples 

Some people need to get over themselves.  It's over, justice was done and we won the game.  The way some people are going on, you'd think it was Sho-Silva that through the punch.  Time to stop this foaming at the mouth and get over it.  I'm cringing reading some of the comments here!

If someone mistimes a punch (assuming they don't miss completely) or a tackle in the box you go down even if you can stay on your feet, that's always been the case for as long as I can remember. It's their problem and the refs not yours.

My. My, "go down, even if you are unhurt etc." What a cynical way of looking at things. So cheating is fine so long as you can get away with nit eh?  Now. Now! Wynthank 15. By that token wait until the boot is  on the other foot and then say nothing, just grin and bear it --stiff upper lip and all that eh?

 

 

This would never have happened at Melchester.

............... you'd think it was Sho-Silva that through the punch...........

or Alice that threw the looking glass?     

If someone acted like that in the opposing side then all those defending Silva would be first on here labelling that player a cheat/diver etc. etc. 

Possibly the most renowned example for play-acting was this - Rivaldo 

The differences? Silva was punched in the face whilst Rivaldo was hit by the ball in the legs... yes... but the fundamentals are the same.  Both aggressors deserved to be sent off and both recipients acted poorly. 

Do I care? Not a jot... we needed a win at all costs and Silva's reaction might have helped us to get the win. The ref might not have seen it and responded as he did if it wasn't for Silva falling to the ground like a bag of spuds and Hearts could have got an equaliser with 11 men on the park but it was the correct decision in the end.

He should be get a good slagging by the senior players in the team for acting like that but the worse crime was the muppet in the Hearts shirt that threw the punch. There's no moral high ground in Silva's actions but I'd take a team of winners over do-gooders any day of the week. 

Probably worth remembering that the linesman had clocked the punch even before Silva went down so the Hearts lad was always going to go. Yes his delayed reaction was a wee bit embarrassing but it mad no difference to the decision the officials eventually took.