Supporters' Trust Statement No 2

[DJS]

Representatives of both the ICT Supporters Trust and the Football Club met today (Tuesday) to discuss the Singing Section at Saturday’s match with Dunfermline.

The Trust took to the Club the concerns of fans about events at the game.  It is clear that much can be learned from what happened and further dialogue and investigations are required to complete this process.  However, we are pleased that the Football Club remains committed to the Singing Section becoming a permanent fixture at the Tulloch Caledonian Stadium.

The Trust will arrange a meeting for fans in the near future, to which club representatives will be invited, to hear how fans feel this initiative should be taken forward.

[Scotty]

No disrespect intended DJS but that statement does not answer a **** thing.

Comment: The Trust took to the Club the concerns of fans about events at the game >> And the response ?

Comment: It is clear that much can be learned from what happened and further dialogue and investigations are required to complete this process >> Has anyone actually held up their hands and said 'we were wrong' or is it all the fans' fault again ?

Comment: However, we are pleased that the Football Club remains committed to the Singing Section becoming a permanent fixture at the Tulloch Caledonian Stadium >> Are they just as committed to allowing certain stewards to continue to treat fans with utter disrespect and physical intimidation bordering on assault ?

Comment: The Trust will arrange a meeting for fans in the near future, to which club representatives will be invited, to hear how fans feel this initiative should be taken forward. >> I note the use of the word HEAR rather than LISTEN !!!

[RiG]

Parts of this statement also appear on the BBC Scotland News -> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highla...nds/6658065.stm

[Harry Chibber]

nice to see us get some good coverage and some sympathy from the BBC, hopefully the board will see sense

[RiG]

The singing section was much bigger than that honest!  :015:

Half of it disappeared into the North Stand for fear of getting wet  :007:

[Harry Chibber]

The singing section was much bigger than that honest!  :015:

Half of it disappeared into the North Stand for fear of getting wet  :007:

Did Andy and the rest of my lot join in RIG? I did say to them!

[RiG]

Sadly they did not.

[Harry Chibber]

probably scared of the rain :015:

[maimie]

No disrespect intended DJS but that statement does not answer a **** thing.

Comment: The Trust took to the Club the concerns of fans about events at the game >> And the response ?

Comment: It is clear that much can be learned from what happened and further dialogue and investigations are required to complete this process >> Has anyone actually held up their hands and said 'we were wrong' or is it all the fans' fault again ?

Comment: However, we are pleased that the Football Club remains committed to the Singing Section becoming a permanent fixture at the Tulloch Caledonian Stadium >> Are they just as committed to allowing certain stewards to continue to treat fans with utter disrespect and physical intimidation bordering on assault ?

Comment: The Trust will arrange a meeting for fans in the near future, to which club representatives will be invited, to hear how fans feel this initiative should be taken forward. >> I note the use of the word HEAR rather than LISTEN !!!

i can understand your frustrations Harry but there are processes that need to be gone through.

the club cannot respond without going through these.  they have responded so far in that they held a meeting with the trust so that we could put our concerns to them.  they now must go and investigate these and will get back to us.

'blame' cannot be apportioned until these investigations are completed

the stewarding issue is very much at the forefront of things too.  again, it all needs to be looked at and the club were (i'm scared to use this word in case you take it the wrong way but...) sympathetic to our concerns regarding this issue and you can rest assured that it will not be let lie.

i think you will find that the club WILL listen to what has to be said.

i think in many ways you are being critical of DJS's use of language and not looking at what he is actually saying - but maybe i'm wrong...

[Harry Chibber]

:029:

you're quoting Scotty, but to be fair I agree with all he has posted

[chris123]

"An investigation is to be launched into why members of an SPL football club's official singing section were ejected from their home stadium."

When it says investigation I pressume its an internal club thing?

[tm4tj]

No, the KGB, FBI and Interpol will be involved, not to mention Thunderbirds.

I see the Mounties are already on the case. :ban-llama:

[Scotty]

i think in many ways you are being critical of DJS's use of language and not looking at what he is actually saying - but maybe i'm wrong...

No Maimie, I do have a reasonable grasp of the language (as does DJS) so I was actually looking at what he was saying and it amounted to nothing.

It had the feel of a joint press release where the consensus was 'we need to say something without actually saying anything'. If that is the case, I would much prefer the supporters trust to retain its integrity and come out and say something along the lines of the following example as opposed to this spin.

"we held discussions with the club where we put the supporters' concerns about the incidents of Saturday to them. Although nothing has been conclusively resolved we feel they did listen sympathetically to these concerns and we will be organising a further meeting in the near future to discuss the matters further when the club have concluded their own investigations.

We will also be arranging a meeting for fans in the near future, to which club representatives will be invited. The purpose of this meeting will be for both sides to discuss how this initiative should move forward."

My version essentially says the same thing but without using empty phrases like "it is clear that much can be learned from what happened" which is dubious and sounds like spin to say the least ....... what can be learned ? who is doing the learning ?

anyhow .... moving away from the semantics of the original statement, I prefer your version which is a little clearer and gives us a better idea of the path.....

[li]concerns have been put to the club [great - just what was asked for][/li]
[li]club will investigate these concerns - [thats fair enough - they need to do that][/li]
[li]further dialogue after investigation - [exactly whats needed][/li]
[li]stewarding an issue, club sympathetic - [i hope so -THIS TIME - it has been raised dozens of times and fallen on deaf ears each time][/li]
[li]club to listen to fans ideas (at future meeting we presume) - [good - club can say what is possible, fans can say what they desire and a consensus can be reached][/li]

[EWS]

That article from the BBC is a very positive step.  It get's the fact that we are unhappy out there, and will do more for this 'cause' then any amount of bleating on here.  It wouldn't suprise me to find something in the tabloid press about this tomorrow - and then maybe a comment from a sports writer or two.

If the club are serious about the fans, they will lead from the front.  Be a beacon for what other teams can achieve - and if we can introduce something that benfits not just our fans, but all of football then so be it.  We have already made the SPL change their rules, let's do it again!

[DJS]

No disrespect intended DJS but that statement does not answer a **** thing.

Comment: The Trust took to the Club the concerns of fans about events at the game >> And the response ?

Comment: It is clear that much can be learned from what happened and further dialogue and investigations are required to complete this process >> Has anyone actually held up their hands and said 'we were wrong' or is it all the fans' fault again ?

Comment: However, we are pleased that the Football Club remains committed to the Singing Section becoming a permanent fixture at the Tulloch Caledonian Stadium >> Are they just as committed to allowing certain stewards to continue to treat fans with utter disrespect and physical intimidation bordering on assault ?

Comment: The Trust will arrange a meeting for fans in the near future, to which club representatives will be invited, to hear how fans feel this initiative should be taken forward. >> I note the use of the word HEAR rather than LISTEN !!!

First of all, Scotty, the above statement is not DJS speaking but the Supporters' Trust.  

Now, though, DJS will have his say.

Comment 1 - I think the club is somewhat horrified at what has happened and there is a determination from the Chairman that it not happen again.  However, he certainly does not want to see the Singing Section strangled at birth which is good.

Comment 2 - No and don't know yet

Comment 3 - Only time will tell but the Trust will keep pressing them on this one.

Comment 4 - Hear or Listen? - Take your pick.  We can do both.

If any future Singing Section must be all seated it may never get off the ground (poor choice of words, I know) and supporters need to be consulted about that.  There is no point in the club arranging something if it is not wanted.  What is clear is that we cannot expect ICT to say that a standing Singing Section will be ok because they simply can't do that.  Some Glasgow based bureaucrat would be on their case in no time.  The Supporters' Trust has argued with the club for some time that  the approach to fans standing needs to be consistent and uniform.  Telling 20 people to sit down when you are unwilling to tell 2000 cannot be defended.

The Trust can't run away from what happened on Saturday because we were involved in arranging the event.  I honestly don't think we could have foreseen the heavy handed approach of police and stewards because we have never seen such an approach before at TCS.  I hope we never do again and we will work towards that end.

We have spoken to some of those who were ejected and it would be good to speak to the others.  I am conscious as I type that we have not spoken to IHE yet and I will do that.

The media interest in this has been quite remarkable and Les Kidger, in particular, has been very busy dealing with TV, radio and the papers.  That actually started around half-time on Saturday.

[Scotty]

DJS - Thanks for the response. Between your answer and maimie's earlier answer I think the vagueness of the original statement has been rectified. I also understand that the expanded responses from you both are 'personal opinion' and cannot be attributed as any official statement from the trust as a whole.

I think one of the huge issues here is consistency. Fans have been saying for years that there is no consistency in the application of certain rules in different parts of the ground or when 'certain' teams come to call.

I think everyone realises that the rules as they currently stand mean that the club has to enforce things a certain way and the all-seated rule is one of these. However, it seems ludicrous to invite fans to form a singing section and then treat those very fans with a higher level of scrutiny or to single certain ones out and then do nothing about those standing in other parts of the ground. It is also disturbing to read the accounts of how people were manhandled which seems to go against the stewarding company's own job description for a steward .....

"Providing assistance and safety advice to people attending a wide range of events including many types of sporting occasions, outdoor and indoor concerts. The ability to work within a team, displaying initiative and common sense to the benefit of the public and the occasion. No experience is necessary, however you will be required to undergo compulsory training including basic first aid and fire safety. In addition to this a "first day" induction course will be provided that will enable you to become familiar with your workplace prior to being assigned your duties."

[MorayJaggie]

Has anyone read the comments from Chief Inspector Cox in the Inverness courier.  he says that the fans were not repspecting other fams and were causing a health and saftey issue and basically blamed the incident on them not obeying the stewards.

Complete garbage

[chris123]

That article from the BBC is a very positive step.  It get's the fact that we are unhappy out there, and will do more for this 'cause' then any amount of bleating on here.

It was the "bleating" on here that got it there in the first place.

[ICTBTTH]

Has anyone read the comments from Chief Inspector Cox in the Inverness courier.  he says that the fans were not repspecting other fams and were causing a health and saftey issue and basically blamed the incident on them not obeying the stewards.

Complete garbage

how the **** could the people standing in the singing section not be respecting other fans. I would understand they're concern if it was in sections B or C of the main stand or even in the north but that is complete bulls***.  most of the stewards agreed with me that we shud have been able to stand when we wanted to.

[L_G]

Has anyone read the comments from Chief Inspector Cox in the Inverness courier.  he says that the fans were not repspecting other fams and were causing a health and saftey issue and basically blamed the incident on them not obeying the stewards.

Complete garbage

how the **** could the people standing in the singing section not be respecting other fans. I would understand they're concern if it was in sections B or C of the main stand or even in the north but that is complete bulls***.   most of the stewards agreed with me that we shud have been able to stand when we wanted to.

Fair point, but the one thing that nobody can say is that you should be allowed to stand as it is clearly stated in the SPL Ground Rules that standing in an all seated stadium is forbidden.  He makes 2 points in his statement and one is for safety reasons and that is why the rule is there so we can't argue that point.  On this occasion there were no other fans in the same section to be inconvenienced which is why this section was good to use for the pilot.

Personally I know that some stewards and the police officers were uncomfortable carrying out the instructions they had been given from a higher authority as they were happy that everyone in this section was behaving well and it was only the apparent targeting of this area that annoyed some of the fans.  If all sections of fans had been treated the same then the club would have no case to answer.  The trust will pursue this and once we have some responses from the club we will hold a trust meeting to discuss the issues and look to ways of improving on this for next season.

The official line will always have to be that you must sit as the SPL rules say exactly that.

The heavy handedness of the stewards will be investigated as a seperate issue.

[Alex MacLeod]

The official line will always have to be that you must sit as the SPL rules say exactly that.

Agree with that Laura but perhaps its time all Trusts got together and lobbied the SPL to have this rule changed. Personally I believe that a dedicated standing/singing area, limited to about 300, at every ground would not present any significant safety/crowd control problems. The SPL made the rules and we've seen that these rules are changeable, i.e reducing ground capacity requirements from 10k to 6k, so lets see them give consideration to the customer and change this one.

[L_G]

As a direct result of our meeting yesterday the Club Chairman (Alan Savage) has agreed to write to all of the SPL chairmen to get their views to see if it is something they could put forward.  As you quite rightly say Alex, rules can be changed and our chairman is happy to get behind this.  It depends how much support he gets, but at the end of the day I have no doubt that the OF will be the driving force behind keeping the current set of rules. (Even although they have a singing section at Ibrox who are allowed to stand throughout the game, without interference from the police/stewards)

We will just have to wait and see what we can achieve, but rest assured it has been discussed and will continue to be discussed over the closed season, with a view to having a better arrangement for next season.

[caley89]

  It depends how much support he gets, but at the end of the day I have no doubt that the OF will be the driving force behind keeping the current set of rules. .

why would they be?? i thought out of all th 12 clubs they would be th most likeliest to support this action.

[Scotty]

Even although they have a singing section at Ibrox who are allowed to stand throughout the game, without interference from the police/stewards

Not doubting the accuracy of your info LG - but how is this possible if, as you said in an earlier post "it is clearly stated in the SPL Ground Rules that standing in an all seated stadium is forbidden" ? Either it is allowed and anyone can establish a section like this or it is not allowed and Rangers are not only breaking but also flouting the rules.

If they do allow a sizeable proportion of their fans to stand I would think they might be the first club to support the notion of adjusting this rule ... anything else would be hypocritical in the extreme.

[chris123]

I dont see why any of the clubs would protest, particularly Gretna, as surely it would only need to be an optional thing, its not like it would be forced on clubs. They can stick with their seats if the like.

Edit: Just rememberd that Ibrox has its precious 5 star rating to think about. Might be a problem.

Btw does anyone know what "star rating" our ground is