Bigotry songs question

[stomach]

I was having a discussion with a mate of mine (unfortunately a Rangers fan) and he was saying how he thought the media have blown out of all proportion the so called bigoted songs that are sung by either side of the old firm.

I said that I thought these songs were terrible and had no place in football. He said they are only designed to wind up the other Old firm team and did no real harm as they were usually only about a battle that had happened hundreds of years ago and used Flower of Scotland as an example of this and said it was not much worse that this.

TBH I wouldn't say I know or particulary cared too much about the Old firm so could not argue with him with any real facts.

So, can anyone tell me what these so called Bigotry songs are about and why they have/should be banned, i.e I need some ammunition for my next 'discussion' with him.

Cheers

[Alex MacLeod]

I dont think singing about being "up to our knees in fenian blood" is really appropriate in this day and age. Nor is it appropriate to chant "f*ck the pope and the vatican" between verses of other songs. Those words are not only winding up Celtic fans but all catholics.

[CaleyD]

I suggest you just avoid talking to Rangers fans and that should solve the problem  :015:

I'm guessing he is comparing the singing of the Sash to the singing of Flower of Scotland and he would be right in the fact that the two songs are very similar in terms of celebrating victories in battle.  The difference between the two is that we don't add our own verses/lines to The Flower of Scotland, whereas Rangers have the habit of adding F** the Pope between verses and at the end of the Sash.

Even without the added lines, the guy you are speaking to has shot himself in the foot by admitting that it is only sung in order to wind up the other half of the OF.  I can't find the link right now but I believe legislation exists that says even though something may not in itself be sectarian, if it is used in order to incite another group/race/organisation then the behaviour can and will be adjudged to have been sectarian and those involved can be punished accordingly.

The same rules apply to singing Flower of Scotland but there's one important difference.  We sing it as we recognise it as being our (unofficial) National Anthem and not with the intent of winding up another nation.  Had your friend been able to argue that Rangers fans sing the Sash as they recognise it as being their Anthem, and was it not for the added lines then people would have no argument.

The same applies to many of the other "Loyalist" songs sung by Rangers, on their own and in the right place and sung for the right reasons then they are fine, but that is not enough for Rangers and by your friends own admission they are sung with the intent of inciting the other half of the OF.

In short, the songs are not Sectarian, it is the manner in which they are used and the added lines which make those who sing them sectarian.

[maimie]

whilst i agree with everything that has been written above i cannot forget that there are 2 sides to this story and i'm equally offended by some of the songs sung by the celtc support.

[SMEE]

The problem lies in the fact that Historically Rangers are a Protestant team and Cellic are Catholic, whose roots lay in the "Homeland" (Ulster and Eire). My understandiing is that the teams were founded by shipuilders from each denomination. I also beleive that Celtic came very close to actually being Queens Park Fc!

A lot These songs are traditional songs (akin to Flower of Scotland) taken from the roots of the original teams for means of Identification. Over the years, the words have been changed to be derogotory and inflamitory.

I would have to say to Maimes point, yes there ARE two sides to each story, but historically, Rangers fans are far worse for dredging up the bigoted bile at any opportunity.

[maimie]

one is as bad as the other

[SMEE]

Not from my experience maime. Dont confuse singin the "traditional" songs with the re-worded bigoted bile

[maimie]

i'm not....

and i have experience too...

believe me - they're as bad as each other

[caley89]

Not from my experience maime. Dont confuse singin the "traditional" songs with the re-worded bigoted bile

i can't stand all this "it's ok for celtic because it's traditional irish songs and it's more political than bigotry". what a load of CRAP!! tell me smee, what's political about singing "f*ck martin luther he's a poof"?? (if you don't know who he is, he was the guy that started the protestant reformation)

trust me and maime, celtic can be just as bad as rangers!!!

[Alex MacLeod]

whilst i agree with everything that has been written above i cannot forget that there are 2 sides to this story and i'm equally offended by some of the songs sung by the celtc support.

Cant say I've ever heard the line caley4life quotes but if you study the words of the songs from both sides, and I have done as part of a project, you will see that the green songs are very much pro-Irish, with no mention of religion, whereas the blue songs are very anti-catholic.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Having stood on the Jungle fer many years Alex I would have to disagree:

North Side - South Side - anywhere you gol - soon there'll be no Protestants at all. Singing a song, singing a soldiers song.

Down in the Gorbals 20 years ago 12 little catholic boys stood in a row ....

The Tim Molloy song: Glory glory what a **** of a way to die. Various ditties about the Queen, the Union and the Crown.

and theres more  :020:

[SMEE]

i can't stand all this "it's ok for celtic because it's traditional irish songs and it's more political than bigotry". what a load of CRAP!! tell me smee, what's political about singing "f*ck martin luther he's a poof"??

Can you show me where i said "its ok for Celtic because its traditional irish songs"? I DO NOT recall saying that at any point! I suggest you read the post closer. While we are at it, I have no problem with Traditional songs being sung, its the "add ons" I have a problem with. wheres the difference in singin the feilds of athenry and lets say..flower of scotland? Also, while your at it, I would like to know where you heard "**** martin luther he's a poof" Cant say av ever heard ANY fans.....let alone tic fans sing it.

To reiterate.....i sed in my experience, Rangers fans are worse for diggin out the biggoted pish

[Guest TinCanFan]

I think it's strange that people, including the police don't come down harder on these morons (it could have something to do with them supporting the two clubs though).  It seems to be that if the Celtic fans are singing about their hatred of Protestants and Rangers singing about their hatred of Catholics nothing seems to be done but if fans of a team like ICT or Motherwell etc were singing songs about how they hated black people or pro-Nazi songs then they would be punished right away.

How how many of these idiot OF "fans" actually go to church everyday?  Very few I reckon.

[Guest donmac298]

I agree with maimie.  Here's just one example:

I'm not a Billy I'm a Tim

I'm not a Billy, I'm a Tim

I'm not a Billy I'm not so f*****g silly

I'm not a billy I'm a Tim.

F**K THE QUEEN.

[SMEE]

TCF...more to the point....how many FROM BOTH SIDES, know wat the history or meanings are behind the songs they are singing. Al wager 60-70% of tic fans dont know the fields of athenry is about the great irish famine. Same goes for the rangers fans and their songs

[caley89]

Dont confuse singin the "traditional" songs with the re-worded bigoted bile

sorry but to me what you are saying there made me think you were saying it's ok for celtic to sing traditional. sorry if i misunderstood what you meant. but anyway, why you so keen to defend celtic? trust me they do sing about martin luther. also most "traditional songs" have referances to the IRA. these people killed thousands of peoples lives protestant and catholic. you could say that it's nearly as bad as saying u want to be up to your knees in fenian blood.

[SMEE]

why you so keen to defend celtic?

Am not keen to defend anyone. Merely giving some input based on direct experience of BOTH sets of fans going back 25+ years. Both Rangers and Celtic fans sing songs that have no place in football. IMHO, one is more guilty of bringing the bigitory to games, a fact which is backed up by the amount of times in recent years they have been reprimanded for it!!

[Guest TinCanFan]

TCF...more to the point....how many FROM BOTH SIDES, know wat the history or meanings are behind the songs they are singing. Al wager 60-70% of tic fans dont know the fields of athenry is about the great irish famine. Same goes for the rangers fans and their songs

Absolutely right.  Religion takes place in a church, mosque etc not in a football stadium.

[caley89]

soundo :022:

[stomach]

Didn't mean to start a fight guys  :023:

I was just wanting to know what Old firms actually sing and what the meaning of the songs are

[Alex MacLeod]

Dont confuse singin the "traditional" songs with the re-worded bigoted bile

sorry but to me what you are saying there made me think you were saying it's ok for celtic to sing traditional. sorry if i misunderstood what you meant. but anyway, why you so keen to defend celtic? trust me they do sing about martin luther. also most "traditional songs" have referances to the IRA. these people killed thousands of peoples lives protestant and catholic. you could say that it's nearly as bad as saying u want to be up to your knees in fenian blood.

And of course the British army, the UDA, UVF, UFF never killed anybody. Between 1969 and 2002 there were 3524 killings: Republican Paramilitary  2056,  Loyalist Paramilitary  1020,  British Security  362,

Irish Security  5,  not known  81

The one difference between the Irish and the Scots is that the Irish continued to fight for what they believed in after 1690. The Scots fought till 1707 then gave it all up.

Incidentally, the Battle of the Boyne was fought between King Williams forces and the Stewart Jacobites, who had fled to Ireland from Scotland. Both sides managed to secure the services of Irishmen to bolster their armies. It was not a battle against the Irish as many people think.

[maimie]

so - because the irish continued to fight makes it ok for celtc fans to sing song about those fights and those who fought at football matches?  scotland is on it's way to independence. we seem to be along the same time scales to achieve this as the irish and have done it without the violence we have seen there so to compare the 2 is a bit wrong

and here's me thinking that celtc were a scottish club too...

as i've said before there is no place in football for these kind of songs from either side...  in my very humble opinion of course....

[SMEE]

Maime, had Scotland been split in two like Ireland, maybe we would have had the same rough ride to Independance, pressuming we even got it in the first place.

[Johnboy]

So, can anyone tell me what these so called Bigotry songs are about and why they have/should be banned, i.e I need some ammunition for my next 'discussion' with him.

Cheers

Hmmmmm.....

I'd say you should have plenty of ammo now, Stomach.... :rolleyes02:

[Guest TinCanFan]

Maime, had Scotland been split in two like Ireland

I'm sure I heard on the telly once that one of the people who auditioned to be King of Scotland back in Robert the Bruce's time wanted to split Scotland in to seven separate bits.