Poor poor Celtic fans!

[+Fraz]

I've only very quickly looked over the pervious posts so apologies if I'm going over old ground.

IMO unless there has been a serious identified threat from the police/authorities regarding fans or certain sections of fans then blanket searches see very OTT and are arguably more likely to cause the unrest that they may seek to stop. That said in a nutshell I have no issue with sporadic random searches (even if that includes me) if it helps put off people taking things into the event that they should not. I see little or no difference from a football game to a music festival or even going into a nightclub. In the case of nighclubs - ROAR as i've been told on more than one occasion!

In fairness at TCS it's not the stewards that have ever caused me massive stress it's the bloody traffic wardens outside!

[Heilandee]

CaleyD, I think we generally agree on the wider issue and the attitude thing , but surely in a scenario as described above,little bhoy bloggs should just be turned away and refused admission,no?

Edited January 26, 2012 by Heilandee

[CaleyD]

Yeah, and there's every likelihood that's what would happen because police won't have the manpower to start searching those who refuse stewards or to start lifting everyone who refuses them, but being asked to submit to a police search isn't an optional thing and they would be quite within their rights to lift him. Try refusing a search at an airport and see where that gets ya!!!

Either way, you just know that he's going to be a wee gobshite and walking away peacefully isn't going to happen, especially if he's got a few mates in tow.

I've said from the outset that we don't know how much "intelligence" the decision to search everyone is based on, so we can't really say for sure if it's heavy handed or not. One side will tell you it's extensive, whilst the other side will claim the opposite....the truth will be somewhere in between.

That's not really my concern, my concern is...as I've said...that an organisation such as the Celtic Trust has issued a statement which is only going to serve to exacerbate the situation. The attitude seems to be that if the authorities do not bend to their will then they will seek to make life even more difficult for them. That helps nobody and all we end up with is a battle of wills with each side digging their heals in further and further until something finally gives and all hell breaks loose....and when that happens their will be no winners and the whole of Scottish Football will receive another coat from the tar brush.

[Sorted]

I think, at some point, someone has to make a stand against this. As HD and others have said it does nothing to encourage punters through the gate, merely putting yet another obstacle in your way.

The approach being suggested (why I support the position of the Celtic Trust or any other trust whose supporters are to be treated in this manner) is that it is not reflective of how we police our society. It may be argued with justification, that Celtic supporters are more likely to carry flares into a ground than others. This, however, surely only represents a miniscule proportion of their fans thereby not giving justification for the action.

If this is to be replicated then, for example, Northern Constabulary may have statistics that would lead you to believe that more people are caught drunk driving leaving certain pubs in town than others. Because this gives cause for concern then, in tandem with the approach being used on Celtic supporters, the police should stop every car leaving these establishments at all times! This of course is nonsense but akin to the tactics being used and to which we should object.

Just like drink driving where the police use intelligence, promoted the unacceptability of such behaviour and have the support of many in the community to deal with, those involved in policing/stewarding our game (and it still is our game) should engage with fans and gain theire trust.

How many threads have we seen on CTO and other supporters forums that talk about the heavy handed nature of policing and stewarding? Some with merit, others with none.

In a democratic society (and it is despite the 'there's no one for me to vote for' brigade) surely it's not too much to expect that the behaviour and needs of the vast (and it is hugely vast) majority are put before that of the idiots?

[Scotty]

In a democratic society ... surely it's not too much to expect that the behaviour and needs of the vast (and it is hugely vast) majority are put before that of the idiots?

Indeed ... but surely it is also not too much to expect that that same (vast) majority, and those who purport to speak on their behalf, should be encouraged to apply peer pressure to the idiot faction who are magnifying the issue rather than stir them up and inflame the situation?

Its a direct parallel to your drink/drive example whereby you have the police deterrent but you also have the peer pressure from the public that makes it a socially unacceptable behaviour .....

As I posted above ... I dont want the authorities to have carte blanche, nor for stewards/police to ruin my day at the footy (whether it be in Inverness or Toronto) but it's cause and effect, and I cant really complain too much about the effect if I have done nothing to prevent the cause or to make it seem less "cool" by speaking out about it !!!

Yes, we have seen threads on here about heavy handed stewarding, and I can also recount dozens of examples, both in Toronto and in Inverness, that dont make it onto any message boards. It IS a problem, and it should be dealt with (both broadly and on a case by case basis) ... but to my mind, this is the wrong horse to back given the history of bad behaviour in even just the recent past (ie. this season and last). If anything, this situation, and the Trust response to it actually works the opposite way ..... there is a problem (its documented), the body that should be the liaison between club and supporters doesnt condemn the illegal action of the minority, and instead calls for the majority to conduct what amounts to "civil disobedience" as a reaction to the measures, and this by default gives the club and authorities a perfect argument to say "see, we HAVE to do it !"

I have to say at this point that I have no problem with civil disobedience as a protest tool, sometimes its necessary, and sometimes its effective, and sometimes it is all that we have, but in this case for it to have any impact, it would have to be accompanied by an undertaking or demonstration that the underlying illegal behaviour has stopped. If not, then its not civil disobedience, its bully boy tactics designed to let those partaking in illegal activities continue to do so regardless of the impact on the others ... the minority, in effect, are showing just as much disrespect for the majority as the stewards/police are !!!

In contrast, I can think of two prime examples that I know of where our own supporters trust has acted as intermediary between fans and club during a "discussion" about stewarding in the last few seasons (there are probably more, but two come immediately to mind for me) .... Without getting into specifics, I think it is safe to say that in one of them, the club listened and took action as the fault was on their side, and in the other, it was a case of two sides to every story, where the story being told in the first instance was somewhat 'rose-tinted' and failed to mention certain actions that led to the security reactions .... In both cases, the two sides talked, listened and resolved the issues ... thats the way it should be.

Right now, we have a club chairman who is very fan focused, not surprising considering he has always been one whether on the board or not, and on one of my trips home, long before he was ever chairman, I personally witnessed him quizzing the matchday security chiefs when he observed the lads in Section G getting a hard time from stewards for what appeared to be no good reason. He was spitting feathers at the time because he could see there was nothing much going on except a few at the very back standing up. No hassle, no belligerence (that we could see), and no reason other than bully boy tactics for stewards to give them a hard time. He investigasted it, and I believe even had a chat with the lads (as well as security) and it died down for a while. If WE have an issue, then my best advice is to talk to him about it rather than take the same stance that Celtic Trust seem to be doing ... maybe its because we are a smaller club, but I know he will actually listen if the case has merit.