Poor poor Celtic fans!

[PaderbornCaley]

This made me chuckle. Stole it from P+B... who stole it from the Celtic Supporters Trust. It's not even a joke...

Blanket search policy for Celtic fans

Published on Wednesday 18th January, 2012 by Celtic Trust

New Love Street policy for Celtic fans

Representatives of the Celtic Trust and the Celtic Supporters' Association today met with the General Manager and the Head of Security at St Mirren FC. The meeting followed an exchange of correspondence between the Celtic organisations and St Mirren after the last two away games at which there was severe congestion and delays getting into the game, not to mention the indignity of pat down searches for every single supporter regardless of age, or any other factor. We conveyed to the St Mirren reps that this treatment is unique to New Love Street as no other Club consistently treats our fans in this manner. We indicated that this leads to resentment and tension which is entirely avoidable. We stressed to them how unnecessary and inappropriate this action is.

They, in turn, informed us that they risk-assess every game and that the main reason for our fans being treated in this way is the 'bad reputation' we now apparently have for the use of flares during games. We disputed the number of occasions when this has taken place and we again stressed that no other Club feels the need to take this action. We indicated that neither of the Celtic organisations represented at the meeting is in favour of the use of flares but that we felt that the problem had been exaggerated in any event. We were told that the information came from Celtic FC and from Strathclyde Police K Division.

We asked for information on flow rates into the ground and what time they advised people to arrive in order to ensure entry for kick-off. They did not have this information to hand but agreed to provide it.

We are informed that a decision has already been made for Saturday's game to search every fan, however, their Safety Team meets tomorrow and new information may lead to a change in policy.

The advice that we are giving to all Celtic fans is that they should not allow themselves to be searched by any steward who does not display the appropriate evidence that they are SIA approved for searches. Neither should anyone allow themselves to be searched unless the searcher has their hands covered appropriately. Clearly people will need to make their own judgement about arrival times to ensure they don't miss the start of the game.

We will contact K Division Strathclyde Police and Celtic FC tomorrow to ask them what evidence on the use of flares by Celtic fans they have given to the Safety Team in order to check the veracity of the information on which St Mirren is basing its policy.

We will continue to monitor the situation and we may need to consider some form of protest action against St Mirren if they continue to inconvenience and degrade our supporters in this way.

[PaderbornCaley]

I always get frisked at Parkhead. Must be a conspiracy!

[Scotty]

Celtic and Flares ??? How dare the patterned folk of Paisley set the fashion police on the great unwashed ......

Heard a rumour it was this guy they were looking for ......

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

Absolutely pathetic , it's little wonder that attendances are down across the country .

[Scotty]

No sympathy for the Celtic fans .... and even though St Mirren, IMHO, are using this as a convenient excuse, it is the one or two idiots doing this who have given St Mirren the opportunity to brand them all as irresponsible pyromaniacs !

This exact debate rages at Toronto FC too ..... and the main issue is safety.

The tip of a typical Road or Marine Flare - which is what fans tend to be able to lay their hands on - glows at a temperature of about 1400°F .... It can cause horrible burns if the person handling it does not know what they are doing, and even worse damage to innocent bystanders (from drips or splashes) if the idiot decides to get rid of it by throwing it when the stewards approach. I know, because the throwing thing happened in my section at TFC and the results of it have been felt to this day.

A woman - minding her own business - had a hole burned in her jeans and suffered a leg burn when the material stuck to her skin along with some of the pretty nasty chemicals used in these things, and fans since that incident and a few other smoke/flare incidents are now routinely patted down before games. One supporters group in particular always used to try and smuggle them in ... but once all fans started getting subjected to pat-downs, and that particular group lit a few in the opposite end of the stadium from the main supporters groups and were thrown out and many had season tickets revoked, it kinda stopped .....

The worst part is that any chance of having "organised" pyro in the stands ... which one or two MLS teams do with designated (and safety qualified) personnel who have the proper flares, and sand/water buckets close to hand is all but gone ..... The club wont risk it because of the actions of a few ****heads !

[+DoofersDad]

"Neither should anyone allow themselves to be searched unless the searcher has their hands covered appropriately."

As if anyone would want to search a tink without their hands being covered appropriately.

[CaleyD]

Whether St Mirrens actions are seen as being OTT or not, the statement from the Celtic Trust strikes me as being a tad irresponsible and is only likely to lead to further delays and problems at the turnstiles.

Also think there may be some misinformation in there regarding hands being covered. As far as I am aware there's no need for gloves to be worn for a bag search or pat-down (other than for the searchers own protection). Willing to be corrected on that one if I'm wrong.

[Sorted]

This is a clear example of why football fans fail to be taken seriously when it comes to 'real' involvement in our game.

Anyone who has any interest in civil liberties should be very unhappy at the prospect of any group being treated in this manner and I find it very surprising that posters who continual promote the position (one I am in agreement with) that the game belongs to the fans, choose not to see such behaviour as unacceptable as those being subjected to it are deemed the enemy.

I have been attending football matches for over 30 years and, to date, have only been the subject of 'search' on one occasion, that being in Brussels for an Anderlecht v FC Bruges game in the 80s,. It may well be that I am lucky or perhaps I just go quietly about my business, who knows?

Interestingly, those attending societies more prestigious events (by self appointment only) are not subject to such treatment yet events that are, in large, attended by the working classes are targeted. Surely it is only sensible that all reasonable football fans and, in particular, football club trusts and supporters organisations unite to have such treatment abolished at matches irrespective of who it is dished out to?

I see nothing unreasonable in a campaign that unites supporters in a refusal to be searched without justification. Perhaps it may lead to a greater co-operation and unity of supporters that might really give the owners and administrators something to think about?

Edited January 24, 2012 by Sorted

[Heilandee]

I agree with Sorted,this smacks somewhat of St Mirren doing it just "because we can",but Cellic ar'nae the only supporters being frisked and searched,I notice their semi isn't getting used for practice on the Sunday......

Important message from SFL to Ayr and Killie fans

From the SFL official site

The Scottish Communities League Cup Semi-Final 2012

Ayr United v Kilmarnock

The National Stadium, Hampden Park, Glasgow

Saturday 28th January, 2012

Kick-off 1.00 p.m.

MESSAGE TO BOTH SETS OF SUPPORTERS re- SEARCH OPERATION

“Supporters travelling to Hampden Park on Saturday, 28th January, 2012 are advised to attend earlier than usual due to searching procedures which will be undertaken on entry to the stadium.

Hampden Park is a venue for this Summer’s Olympics and there is a requirement from LOCOG (London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games) to carry out a number of test events to trial their search capability prior to the start of the Games.

It means that all supporters entering the North Stand of the stadium will be searched at each of the 20 turnstiles there (numbers 30 - 49), to the standard required for the Olympic football events at Hampden Park in July and August, 2012.

This will include a ‘meet and greet’ away from the turnstiles where supporters will be required to empty their possessions into an A4 sized plastic bag prior to a full search at the turnstiles.

Bag searches will be ushered to one side to prevent any backlog. These search procedures will be carried out in respect of both sets of fans and suitable arrangements are in place for male and female supporters. The co-operation of all supporters will ensure that a smooth, safe passage into the stadium will take place, with no undue delay.”

Edited January 24, 2012 by Heilandee

[PaderbornCaley]

St Mirren have given the reason that certain support are 'high risk'. i.e. Celtic fans have brought flares into the stadium before. Earlier in the season, a young girl was burnt at a Celtic match due to a flare. They have the same policy for a few teams. I'm really in two minds. They could do random searches (which actually is what they ended up doing at the weekend).

I had to empty out my pockets for the Motherwell game the other week and a few other people in front of me got the full pat down. There's no need for it with our support, but the stewards don't know that!

What made me laugh is the Celtic Trusts main complaint is that it delays people getting into the game. But their asking their fans to see badges and check handware etc etc. If you've got nothing to hide, just get on with it and don't let it ruin your day. There's more things to worry about.

[PaderbornCaley]

Majorly off topic but I thought the SFA are against a Team GB football team? Why are they letting them play at Hampden Park? If their using Ayr and Killie fans for their Olympics stewarding experiments, I find this really hypocritical!

[CaleyD]

This is a clear example of why football fans fail to be taken seriously when it comes to 'real' involvement in our game.

Anyone who has any interest in civil liberties should be very unhappy at the prospect of any group being treated in this manner and I find it very surprising that posters who continual promote the position (one I am in agreement with) that the game belongs to the fans, choose not to see such behaviour as unacceptable as those being subjected to it are deemed the enemy.

I have been attending football matches for over 30 years and, to date, have only been the subject of 'search' on one occasion, that being in Brussels for an Anderlecht v FC Bruges game in the 80s,. It may well be that I am lucky or perhaps I just go quietly about my business, who knows?

Interestingly, those attending societies more prestigious events (by self appointment only) are not subject to such treatment yet events that are, in large, attended by the working classes are targeted. Surely it is only sensible that all reasonable football fans and, in particular, football club trusts and supporters organisations unite to have such treatment abolished at matches irrespective of who it is dished out to?

I see nothing unreasonable in a campaign that unites supporters in a refusal to be searched without justification. Perhaps it may lead to a greater co-operation and unity of supporters that might really give the owners and administrators something to think about?

Don't see what searches have to do with the concept of the "game belonging to the fans". The level of searches undertaken will be determined by the outcome of the security meetings that take place with the safety officer, police and stewarding companies. If the reports suggest that there's an increased risk then police and stewards have a duty of care to act accordingly. It matters not a jot if fans are involved in that decision process or not, the duty of care to act on the intelligence to hand still exists.

Could you imagine the uproar if that duty was ignored and something happened?

We don't know exactly what intelligence was to hand when the decision was made to pat-down all visiting Celtic fans, so it's impossible for us to make a call on whether or not we think it was justified.

FWIW, I believe that to occasionally search every fan acts as a reasonable deterrent...to search every fan every time they visit is excessive.

Regardless, the way to deal with that is not to promote actions that will only serve to exacerbate the situation and potentially cause further trouble. The Celtic Trust communication is not about informing people of their rights or seeking a solution, it's about causing so many problems for those doing the searches that it leads to mayhem...allowing them to come back with the "See what problems you are causing" argument.

Who's fault will it be if the searches are abandoned due to unwarranted questioning of officials causing delays and fans getting rowdy because they are about to miss kick-off...and that results in an object getting in to the stadium that then causes problems or injury?

If the Celtic Trust, or any other organisation wants to make some real inroads into dealing with these things, then they first need to look at the actions of their own fans and work on bringing that under control so as others don't feel the need for increased security measures in order to protect the safety of innocent bystanders.

P.S. Setting aside the fact that you would be hard pressed to deem them as being a risk to public safety, even those attending societies more prestigious events undergo security checks...checks that would be deemed a far bigger incursion on civil liberties than a simple bag/pocket check and pat-down at a football match.

[Scotty]

Anyone who has any interest in civil liberties should be very unhappy at the prospect of any group being treated in this manner and I find it very surprising that posters who continual promote the position (one I am in agreement with) that the game belongs to the fans, choose not to see such behaviour as unacceptable as those being subjected to it are deemed the enemy.

This is one occasion where Celtic fans should "know their history" !!!! Do a google search for Celtic and Flares and you get rather a lot of hits, very few of which relate to 70s fashion !!! Whether its at Celtic Park, in European ties, or even in pre-season friendlies in England, there are dozens of reports of this, and the vast majority of them are recent, many involve injury, and most are related to so-called "ultras" culture.

In other words, Celtic fans, albeit a small minority of them, currently have a reputation for smuggling prohibited and dangerous items into various stadia. It is therefore not unreasonable for the security staff or police to try and mitigate this. I would also expect the same treatment dished out to other "supporters" if they continually exhibited this behaviour too !

I do stand by what I said earlier in saying that I think St Mirren may be going in a bit heavy handed on this one, but its all relative, and as CaleyD says, possibly rooted in the intelligence gathered by the authorities in the leadup to the game. The St Mirren reaction is in response to a (recurring) pattern of behaviour. The game does belong to the fans, but those same fans also have to take some responsibility for allowing the minority to tar them with the hooligan brush .... The Trust should be urging the fans to "self police" the minority who are causing this rather than trying to lay all the blame at St Mirren.

Civil Liberties, YES, but that does not mean allowing anarchy and chaos in the stands !

I have been attending football matches for over 30 years and, to date, have only been the subject of 'search' on one occasion, that being in Brussels for an Anderlecht v FC Bruges game in the 80s,. It may well be that I am lucky or perhaps I just go quietly about my business, who knows?

I think you are lucky ! As I posted above, Toronto FC have also had a debate about flares. One Supporters group with maybe 200 members (in a 20,000 stadium) and who are seated in the opposite end of the ground from the other supporters groups, developed a reputation for going over the top and this has meant certain security measures are now in place for us all .. not just at that end of the ground, but at the whole ground.

It has to be said that TFC is pretty lenient for the most part with its supporters, and has welcomed communication, meetings, suggestions and ideas, and it also allows "raucous" behaviour in the stands with standing, chanting, flags and banners etc when it does not fall foul of the stadium rules ... but this group always tried to push the boundaries, and one of those boundaries was "pyro" ... flares and/or smoke bombs.

Its a long story, so I wont go into it in detail, but the end result after a few incidents was that the club started enforcing policies that had always been there but were rarely used. For example, all flags and banners had to be checked in an hour before the game, the 'capos' leading the chanting had to get official ID badges issued prior to each game, and all fans would be subject to searches or random pat-downs ..... Its not fun, it delays you getting in, and there was a lot of resentment towards that supporters group rather than the club or the security folk (who hated it too as they had to work for their money rather than just collect a pay cheque). The club did get it in the neck for the flags/capos restrictions as most thought that was heavy handed and had nothing to do with the flare issue, but most did not object to pat-downs as you could relate to it being a preventative measure for the flares and the anger for that was directed at the group who caused the problem rather than the club who just reacted to it. In the end, the other supporters groups 'self-policed' their own members and the club weeded out the offenders (the group is pretty much disbanded now). End result towards the final part of the season was a relaxation of the rules again .... if we behave decently, the club doesnt go over the top and vice-versa ..... simple as that.

Interestingly, those attending societies more prestigious events (by self appointment only) are not subject to such treatment yet events that are, in large, attended by the working classes are targeted. Surely it is only sensible that all reasonable football fans and, in particular, football club trusts and supporters organisations unite to have such treatment abolished at matches irrespective of who it is dished out to?

Been through an airport as a "business traveller" recently ? Full Body Scanners. need I say more.

Again, the "treatment" is a reaction (and yes, perhaps at times an over-reaction) to past events (be that an airport or a football match) and the only way to have it abolished is to deal with or mitigate the cause.

I mentioned the thrown flare in my post above, what I didnt mention was that it whizzed over my head, just a few feet away (it was probably more, but it felt that close at the time). If a glob of chemical had dripped right at that moment, whoever was closest would have been maimed or scarred for life, rather than the poor woman who "just" had a hole burned in her jeans and a rather sore burn on her leg when it finally landed on/near her. These things are dangerous !!!!!!

I see nothing unreasonable in a campaign that unites supporters in a refusal to be searched without justification. Perhaps it may lead to a greater co-operation and unity of supporters that might really give the owners and administrators something to think about?

I would agree with a campaign that asserts the right of football fans to be treated with respect by those tasked with stewarding or policing games. There is nothing more aggravating than being singled out for no good reason other than the fact that the steward that day wants a wee power kick. I have heard plenty of examples on both sides of the pond about unjustified and unjustifiable treatment, and experienced it myself, and we have even had some dialogue about it in relation to isolated incidents at ICT over the last few years which led to private chats with ICT officials ... however, I do not believe this is a good example to spearhead any such campaign ..... You can dress it up in Civil Liberties speak or generalise that it relates to every football fan in the land if you wish, but in this case it does not ... Its a specific reaction to a specific set of supporters for a specific type of behaviour that is both habitual and recent. If the Trust want to address this, they should address it internally first !

[Sorted]

CD/Scotty

I see this as a simple issue. Either you accept the right of fotball club stewards and police to physically search every supporter who is entering a ground or you don't. You guys do, I don't.

The principle of any state or organisation having the right to stop and search without justification or cause is, in my opinion, unreasonable. Attendance at a football match does not merit justification or cause. Police state behaviour.

Despite your considered positions to the contrary, I see nothing in your posts to change my view. Agree to disagree.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Sorted

[Scotty]

CD/Scotty

I see this as a simple issue. Either you accept the right of fotball club stewards and police to physically search every supporter who is entering a ground or you don't. You guys do, I don't.

The principle of any state or organisation having the right to stop and search without justification or cause is, in my opinion, unreasonable. Attendance at a football match does not merit justification or cause. Police state behaviour.

Despite your considered positions to the contrary, I see nothing in your posts to change my view. Agree to disagree.

Yes, we may indeed need to agree to disagree !!!

I dont accept the right of stewards or police to randomly search someone without cause. I agree that this type of action is over the top, and i agree that heavy handed tactics by police and stewards is also both annoying and potentially an infringement of civil liberties .....

However, it is my humble opinion that the crux of our difference in views comes from the fact that I believe the ongoing pattern of illegal and downright dangerous behaviour vis-a-vis the use of flares in an uncontrolled manner within a stadium does actually give them cause whereas you do not !!!

I dont know if the same "ING" advert runs in the UK ... but there is one over here for their managed portfolios that goes something along these lines. Two guys are standing talking. One says "I want to stop losing money on buying stocks" to which the ING rep replies "you want to stop losing money buying your own stocks? .... stop buying stocks then" ..... I would say the same principle applies here ....

"I want to stop being searched by the cops when going to a football game" .... "you want to stop being searched ... then stop doing (or condoning) illegal or dangerous things that gives them a reason to search you" .....

The "innocent" supporters in the midst of this should be quite unhappy at the original statement .... it seems to want to protect the offenders rather than eradicate their illegal and downright dangerous behaviour by using that larger group of fans who do not partake in this behaviour as a pawn in this particular game .....

To you it seems black and white .... to me, there are many shades of grey !!!

[Heilandee]

"I want to stop being searched by the cops when going to a football game" .... "you want to stop being searched ... then stop doing (or condoning) illegal or dangerous things that gives them a reason to search you" .....

unfortunately, i reckon many (more) will take the other option...."I want to stop being searched by the cops when going to a football game" .... "you want to stop being searched ...stop going to the football.

Just another nail in the "is it really worth it"? coffin i feel

[The Mantis]

I have been attending football matches for over 30 years and, to date, have only been the subject of 'search' on one occasion, that being in Brussels for an Anderlecht v FC Bruges game in the 80s,.

I used to nip down to a few English games at the likes of Carlisle, Sunderland, Gateshead, Newcastle, and I got the impression that searching fans, at least away fans, was standard.

They often asked you as you approached the ground whether you were a home or away fan, and seemed to struggle with the concept of 'neutral'.

At Gateshead 3 of us got no choice but to sit with the away fans - we were turned away from the home turnstiles. Because the away side were high-flying Halifax whose fans had been enjoying a few sherbets on the way, we were aggressively stewarded to a level that made the jobsworths at Tannadice look like amateurs.....

[Scotty]

unfortunately, i reckon many (more) will take the other option...."I want to stop being searched by the cops when going to a football game" .... "you want to stop being searched ...stop going to the football.

Just another nail in the "is it really worth it"? coffin i feel

Tend to agree .... and again I can base it on experience .....

I spent many seasons right above the tunnel and although the main stand was quiet, our bit was not ... whether it was myself, Big Stew or Calum shouting things out, or whether it was Doresboy or Barry, there was always some banter with the touchline, and there was the odd bit of standing up to deliver that banter .... a few dirty looks from John S. in the tunnel below, but no hassle.

Last time I was back I was shocked at how silent the whole experience was. Little or no banter (not allowed), certainly no standing to deliver it (also not allowed) and as for expressing yourself with "colourful language" ... forget about it. People I had gone to the games with for years, and who are first and foremost, diehard fans, had, over the ensuing years, been accused of being troublemakers by the stewards, one was accused of racism, and another had a quiet word in his ear for being a little "over exuberant" .. and all at one time or another had been threatened with removal of season tickets ... so they all just sat there and watched the game in a fairly sterile manner ... thats not enjoyment, its "duty".

At TFC, fans are allowed, even encouraged, to enjoy themselves. There are no barriers on chanting or singing (provided its not 'offensive' in the traditional sense). There are pre-game promotions, giveaways and generally a happy and friendly environment. For the most part the club and the stewards are reasonable .... until or unless you step out of line. If the rules are broken, they flex their muscle ... if the rules are not, they leave you alone ..... its enjoyable.

Maybe it IS time for the fans to take the game back ... if it is not already too late ... but as well as focusing on the heavy handedness of authorities, fans cannot turn a blind eye to some of the causes of that, one of which is the behaviour of small minorities of fans spoiling it for all .... if you try to push the boundaries week in and week out, and poke a stick at the authorities by breaking the rules all the time, you will eventually get pushback ... better to work with them than against to achieve a common goal !

[Heilandee]

Scotty, as you know, i have kept an interest and fond eye on ICT over the years having watched both Caley and Thistle in the HL then ICT's climb through the divisions going to many games as a biased "neutral" even sitting in the ICT end (with Dee top on) at Hampden for the Dundee semi,I also went along to the Dunfermline semi etc.However,the continual degrading of the match day experience,hassle,herding, being treated as criminals, came to a head several seasons ago at TCS when i got myself involved in an altercation with the polis for defending a youth they dragged out with his feet off the ground and charged for the "offence" of jumping over the wall to celebrate a goal means i no longer bother and can't think of the last time i went to a game outside the highland league as a neutral. It just aint worth the hassle.

[CaleyD]

I don't think anyone is denying that some of the actions on the part of police/stewards/officials is not justified....and I've gone to bat for people on more than a few occasions over it.

However, what we are talking about here is a group of fans with a recent and substantial history of taking flares etc in to games and endangering peoples safety.

To suggest that Police/Stewards should not have the power to search people entering a stadium under those circumstances is ridiculous.

As I said already....imagine the outrage if someone was injured (or worse) by a flare and police/stewards/clubs had done NOTHING to try and prevent it? Would those campaigning for no searches be willing to come forward and accept responsibility? Would they hell....they would be the ones queueing up to sue police/stewards/clubs for negligence because they did nothing to stop the items getting in in the first place.

[Heilandee]

I appreciate it's a fine line D ,but too often these days stewards in particular and polis to a lesser extent revel in the "i can do and say what i want" attitude, and if you get wound up (even justifiably and put your point politely but forcefully) you are getting huckled. I,m sure with intelligence on serious issues they have a fair handle on where they are looking for offenders, as always seems a big hammer for a small nut.

[+DoofersDad]

The state has a responsibility to protect it's citizens and therefore legislation must allow those responsible for public safety at major events to take proportionate measures to address any perceived risk. Searching fans before entering a stadium is one such measure.

The issue is whether the risk Celtic fans pose warrant such action at the moment. On balance, I don't think it does. The total attendance at Celtic matches over a season is considerable but cases of people being hurt as a result of flares being set off etc are few and far between. But Celtic fans should appreciate that there is a stronger argument to search them than anybody else - their behaviour record is poorer than others and there are more of them so any hazard is likely to have a bigger consequence.

Others in this thread are quite right when they say the Celtic supporters' bodies should focus their efforts on promoting better behaviour from their fans. As for the police, they should focus their attention on what the Celtic supporters do to their wives and girlfriends when they get home from the match.

[Sorted]

I don't think anyone is denying that some of the actions on the part of police/stewards/officials is not justified....and I've gone to bat for people on more than a few occasions over it.

However, what we are talking about here is a group of fans with a recent and substantial history of taking flares etc in to games and endangering peoples safety.

To suggest that Police/Stewards should not have the power to search people entering a stadium under those circumstances is ridiculous.

As I said already....imagine the outrage if someone was injured (or worse) by a flare and police/stewards/clubs had done NOTHING to try and prevent it? Would those campaigning for no searches be willing to come forward and accept responsibility? Would they hell....they would be the ones queueing up to sue police/stewards/clubs for negligence because they did nothing to stop the items getting in in the first place.

At no point in any of my posts did I say that the police or security staff should not have the right to search a person. I will stand corrected if I am wrong.

What I object to is the all encompassing 'search everyone' approach. If, with just cause, an official believes a search is merited as an individual's demeanour or behaviour gives justifiable cause then it is perfectly acceptable to do so. This applies irrespective if you are in the terraces, stands or the boardroom.

Follows an extract from Stop and Search: Know Your Rights

A police officer can usually only search you in a public place but if s/he suspects that you have committed a serious crime, you can be stopped and searched anywhere.

If the police think there may be serious violence in the area at a certain time, they can search for knives or other weapons without needing a good reason for each person. This may be the case, for example, at a football match.

Further:

Police officers can stop and speak to you at any time. They can stop and search you and your vehicle if they have reasonable grounds to suspect you are carrying any of the following:

· drugs

· weapons / firearms / blades or sharp objects

· stolen property

· items which may be used to commit a crime- e.g. a screwdriver

[CaleyD]

As I said, I don't believe that searching every fan at every game is justified....however, I do think that occasional searching of everyone acts as a good deterrent to anyone who might be of a mind to try and take banned items into a ground. It's certainly a more logical approach than just stopping someone because you don't like the look of them....and a little naive to think that any/all perpetrators can be spotted from their demeanour and/or behaviour.

[CaleyD]

I appreciate it's a fine line D ,but too often these days stewards in particular and polis to a lesser extent revel in the "i can do and say what i want" attitude, and if you get wound up (even justifiably and put your point politely but forcefully) you are getting huckled. I,m sure with intelligence on serious issues they have a fair handle on where they are looking for offenders, as always seems a big hammer for a small nut.

Attitudes and actions of individual Police and Stewards is a different thing...and you will get no argument from me on the need to be dealing with that issue.

With further regards to attitude....there's far more fans who think they can do and say as they please than there are police and stewards...and therein lies my issue with the Celtic Trust statement. All it does is fuels that paranoia/victim mentality of some people. They will be of an even stronger mind that nobody should be searching them and they are now armed with what they think are "facts" (there is no need for gloves to be worn for a bag/pocket search or pat down) in regards to their rights when being subjected to a search. Nowhere have they been made aware that refusing to submit to a search by a steward can lead to a request from the police and a refusal to submit to a search by the police can lead to arrest.

So, Little Bhoy Bloggs is approaching the turnstiles, is ushered to the side for a search, the steward has no gloves on so he refuses to turn out his pockets, this is flagged to the police who aren't wearing gloves either and he refuses to co-operate there...in the back of a van and away he goes.

Is that an over-reaction on the part of the police? His behaviour, as far as they are concerned, has to be viewed as being that of someone with something to hide.

So, by issuing the statement they, the Celtic Trust, have only served to enhance the risk of the problem becoming more than one of simple inconvenience at having your pockets etc checked.....something they claim to be moving to try and avoid.

The best thing the Celtic fans could do would be to make sure they have no prohibited items on them, submit to the search, get a totally clean outcome and demonstrate that such action is not required. They would also have to ensure good order when searches aren't in place, but by doing these things they give themselves a far stronger case to argue against large scale operations against them in future. Unfortunately, as it stands, the recent behaviour of (some) fans only gives police etc reason to do what they are doing.