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martinskye

Grammar and education (split from ICT wiki)

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Going back to what I said earlier it has to look professional so the VOLUNTEER'S must have a good grasp of grammar.

As long as they have a better grasp than you Alex ;)

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Just an incorrect use of an apostrophe, little grammar error there. Get yer own house in order before you criticise others ;)

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And the problem is what?

 You also forgot the comma, which should have been inserted  between earlier and it,  in.... Going back to what I said earlier it has to look professional so the VOLUNTEER'S must have a good grasp of grammar.)? That's assuming the previous post is referring to the fact that the apostrophe before the S in VOLUNTEER'S should have been after the S.

Edited by Oddquine
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And the problem is what?

You also spelt problim wrong

As somene born, brought up and schooled in the days when Scottish education was just about the best  in the world ( which it hasn't been for decades due to UK government interference)  I would kinda appreciate a link to the post where Alex  MacLeod spelt problem wrong. It is blatantly obvious where you have spelled it wrong,.....because....believe me.....problim ain' t  accepted English uage.

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ok, can the massed members of the grammar police please take it elsewhere (no question mark as it is not really a question  :wink:). We were having a nice quiet discussion about wikis up to that point.

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ok, can the massed members of the grammar police please take it elsewhere (no question mark as it is not really a question  :wink:). We were having a nice quiet discussion about wikis up to that point.

I hate to be pedantic, but is a rhetorical question not still a question? I seem to have answered my own question. :wink:

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How have the UK Government been interfering in the Scottish education system, which is a devolved matter the sole responsibility of the Scottish Parliament and governing body?

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How have the UK Government been interfering in the Scottish education system, which is a devolved matter the sole responsibility of the Scottish Parliament and governing body?

  Only since 1999,. before that Scotland got what a Westminster Government decided it was getting.

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How have the UK Government been interfering in the Scottish education system, which is a devolved matter the sole responsibility of the Scottish Parliament and governing body?

  Only since 1999,. before that Scotland got what a Westminster Government decided it was getting.

 

 

 

In danger of hijacking the thread, but the comment above is only partly true. All education Acts and regulations have had (Scotland) in their title since the Union of Parliaments, so it was clear it only related to Scotland and not the other Home Nations. While it is true that English, Welsh or Northern Irish MPs could sit in the debating and voting sessions, they seldom did, having rightly decided that they had other priorities to worry about that were more directly related to them. This is what prompted the West Lothian Question - it was usually the other way round when Scottish MPs were co-opted by their parties to vote on matters that had no direct relation to their constituency members!

The only difference a physical Parliament did was to create another gravy train for yet more polies for you and I as taxpayers to support, although granted it did positively ensure that only Scots discussed and voted on this and other purely Scottish matters.

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Just an incorrect use of an apostrophe, little grammar error there. Get yer own house in order before you criticise others ;)

I don't think I have criticised anybody. I made a statement based on what I have read on the ICT page of Wikipedia.

 

As for Scottish Education. It is my belief that the standards have fallen because it has become a result's based programme. The requirement for performance tables has diluted the quality of material being taught.

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  Only since 1999,. before that Scotland got what a Westminster Government decided it was getting.

 

Given how well trained you are, I'm sure that was a typo, as opposed to an error! A colon, surely!

Also, to all the pedants out there, I'm sure a word is spelled WRONGLY, not wrong.....

 

 

I'm no teacher of English, but I believe an adverb is required there :wink:

Edited by TheMantis

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 As for Scottish Education. It is my belief that the standards have fallen because it has become a result's based programme. The requirement for performance tables has diluted the quality of material being taught.

My mistake about you being critical, I took 'barbary monkey on acid' as a criticism rather than the humorous statement you intended. It's a funny image though, reminds me of the youtube video of a guy from vice magazine going to a dog show on acid.

That is very true about the results based system, at school we were taught more how to answer exam papers rather than learn about the subject. One of our teachers was very critical of this, however he still spoon fed us exam papers. Apparently teachers are assessed regionally and nationally and their class results have to literally compare and even compete against an average. Failure to compare calls their competence into question. I could make a go of answering a physics and biology exam but know feck all about them. P.S. incorrect apostrophe on results ;).

Edited by martinskye

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Punctuation is important.  It can be a matter of life or death.  Take Romeo and Juliet for instance.  Romeo wrote Juliet a letter and this is what he meant to say.

 

Dear Juliet,

 I want a woman who knows what love is all about.  You are generous, kind and thoughtful. People who are not like you admit to being useless and inferior.  You have ruined me for other women.  I yearn for you.  I have no feelings whatsoever when we are apart.  I can be forever happy - will you please, please, let me be yours?

Romeo

 

 

This is what he actually wrote.

 

Dear Juliet

I want a woman who knows what love is all about you are generous kind and thoughtful people who are not like you admit to being useless and inferior you have ruined me for other women I yearn for you I have no feelings whatsoever when we are apart I can be forever happy will you please please let me be yours

Romeo

 

 

This is how Juliet read it

 

Dear Juliet,

I want a woman who knows what love is.  All about you are generous, kind and thoughtful people who are not like you.  Admit to being useless and inferior.  You have ruined me.  For other women I yearn.  For you I have no feelings whatsoever.  When we are apart I can be forever happy.  Will you please, please, let me be?

Yours,

Romeo

 

 

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 As for Scottish Education. It is my belief that the standards have fallen because it has become a result's based programme. The requirement for performance tables has diluted the quality of material being taught.

 

My mistake about you being critical, I took 'barbary monkey on acid' as a criticism rather than the humorous statement you intended. It's a funny image though, reminds me of the youtube video of a guy from vice magazine going to a dog show on acid.

That is very true about the results based system, at school we were taught more how to answer exam papers rather than learn about the subject. One of our teachers was very critical of this, however he still spoon fed us exam papers. Apparently teachers are assessed regionally and nationally and their class results have to literally compare and even compete against an average. Failure to compare calls their competence into question. I could make a go of answering a physics and biology exam but know feck all about them. P.S. incorrect apostrophe on results ;).

For your info Martin:

In January 2013, Butcher rejected an offer to manage Barnsley, having been linked to suceed Keith Hill. After rejecting Barnsley, Butcher made a explained his stay, believes the club can make history and happy to settle in Scotland. His stay was relieved by newly signing Daniel Devine.

 

The above is taken from TB's Wiki page and not ICT's as I first indicated. I don't have a clue who the author is but just feel that such grammar makes the whole page look unprofessional.

Edited by Alex MacLeod

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I also find "footballese" quite interesting, especially with regard to its frequent confusion over the last participle and the interchange of it with the past tense.

 

"We should have went ahead in the first half"

 

"He should have saw the defender".

 

This seems largely derived from the "Glasgow Participle".

 

But in the opposite direction in Inverness you will hear "I seen Davie the other day."

 

There is also a tendency to use the perfect tense with respect to completed actions well in the past when the past tense would be more appropriate. For instance post match you might hear someone saying - "He has run up the right wing and he's crossed to ball to Smith who has scored a great goal."

Fine if you're doing a commentary as the action happens (or the present tense) but I always think it sounds a bit strange well after the game has finished.

Football seemed to go through a phase of this a few years ago but of late I've tended to hear it less frequently.

Edited by Charles Bannerman

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That is very true about the results based system, at school we were taught more how to answer exam papers rather than learn about the subject.

Very true. When I started teaching in 1981 I thought I was able to inspire pupils by going off at a tangent and telling them things that were irrelevant, but which pricked their curiosity and made a potentially dry subject more interesting. That was in the days of the Scottish Examination Board who could set a paper that tested candidates' understanding and ability to think.

Fast forward a few years and we got the SQA, the bastard offspring of the SEB and Scotvec, with Scotvec unfortunately being the dominant parent.

The SQA has fostered the idea that education is just a set of building blocks, and that everybody, no matter how limited, can keep adding bricks till they have an honours degree (I'm not saying the idea is all bad).

Hand in hand with this philosophy is the idea that the pupils, (sorry, students) should know what to expect in the exam, so Q1 will be about percentages, instead of being a nasty surprise.

So when you try giving your class something interesting but slightly off-topic, somebody will shout out "is this in the test?" , and when you reply that it's not, somebody else will shout "what are we daein' it for then?".

Of course this sort of anti-learning culture spreads like wildfire, so that nobody thinks anything is worth learning any more unless you will need it in your job.

For this reason, studying languages at school, for example, has become very unpopular, even though the benefits of learning one language in addition to English are well known.

It's now worked its way into the adult population, so that, for example, if we're debating whether Gaelic is of any use (and believe me it is, even if you are only curious about Inverness place names and what they mean), you will get certain posters (I mention no names) whose posts show debating skills that are at the same level as "is this in the test?".

Edited by TheMantis
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Someone cleverer than me once described education as what is left when what was learnt has been forgotten.  I rather like that because whilst obviously not completely true it points the way to the reality that there is much more to education than the simple learning of facts.

 

What is important is to know how to think.  There is no point in knowing facts if you can't apply them.  If you know how to use facts and address problems, it doesn't really matter if you don't know certain relevant facts because you can always look them up.

 

But my perception is that things are improving.  There was a time when we saw a lot of youngsters with top grades all through school and university who were hopeless in the workplace because they had no idea how to apply their knowledge.  These days the education  system, particularly in the universities, trains students in the practical application of knowledge and hence academic qualification tends to be a better judge of how they will perform in the workplace.

 

It seems to me that that is partly due to teachers such as the Mantis.  The best gift a teacher can give a student is not the tools to pass an exam but the curiosity to thirst for knowledge and the skills and desire to learn for themselves.  Youngsters who have embraced that gift from their teachers may not pass all their exams but they won't fail in life.

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  I would kinda appreciate a link to the post where Alex  MacLeod spelt problem wrong. It is blatantly obvious where you have spelled it wrong,.....because....believe me.....problim ain' t  accepted English uage.

 

Read is as 'problim ;)',(emphasise on the cheeky wink), it was just a poor joke on my behalf. Tone is near impossible to convey on a forum!

 

 

I don't have a clue who the author is but just feel that such grammar makes the whole page look unprofessional.

 

I agree. Luckily nobody who knows how wikipedia works will take their word as gospel! Just search Ross County and see what comes up! I'm not genuinely a grammar nazi Alex, the post that started this thread was meant fully tongue-in-cheek and not to criticise you at all. As TheMantis has pointed out my grammar isn't all that either, so I'm certainly in no position to get on at anybody.

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Of course this sort of anti-learning culture spreads like wildfire, so that nobody thinks anything is worth learning any more unless you will need it in your job. For this reason, studying languages at school, for example, has become very unpopular, even though the benefits of learning one language in addition to English are well known.

It's now worked its way into the adult population, so that, for example, if we're debating whether Gaelic is of any use (and believe me it is, even if you are only curious about Inverness place names and what they mean), you will get certain posters (I mention no names) whose posts show debating skills that are at the same level as "is this in the test?".

 

Back when I was in secondary school (a long time ago, around the time Mantis started teaching), they used to give you a 'brochure' when you got to the mid point of second year and had to decide what subjects to take for your 'O' Grades once first and second year general education was complete. This brochure had a list of literally hundreds of jobs and indicated what subjects you should try to get your 'O' grades (and Highers/CSYS) in if you wanted to go into that field .... From what I remember, it didn't talk down to pupils (we were definitely pupils then, not students) and included such fanciful occupations as Astronaut, Rocket Scientist, Pilot etc amongst all the other 'proper' or mundane jobs that people might look at but it also explained how or why you might need those skills. 

 

I remember thinking of being a pilot as the travel sounded exotic, then it was being a civil servant and working in forensics (long before CSI made it popular), before finally settling on perhaps becoming a geologist and working in the oil industry or using the required geography qualifications to become a town planner. I ended up going to university to do geography and geology so I guess the choices worked in the end. It took 20 years, but I am finally working for an engineering consulting company involved not only in the mining/metals/energy field, but also the infrastructure arena so I have aspects of both choices I made nearly 30 years ago !!! Only problem is, I am not working as a geologist or a planner, I am an IT guy working on (license) server administration, license compliance and purchasing... and those were informal skills I may have had back in Scotland, but which I only formalised after going back to 'school' for a year when I first arrived here ... lifelong learning indeed. 

 

As for languages, one choice given to me when I entered 3rd year at Inverness High School was to take an additional class in LATIN over and above French ! As dead of a language as Latin may be in most circles, it has actually served me extremely well over the years. When I later went to Uni, and one of the modules in the geography course was about human geography and the historical migration of peoples across Europe either through war or for economic reasons (Prof Mellor), everything clicked into place ... the Latin words in common use in many languages, the similarities of certain words in different languages, even in Scottish Gaelic and French and how it all tied into migration of peoples or because of old historical alliances etc. I only did 'O' grade French and it was just 1 year of Latin (no 'O' grade course offered, it was just an extra class) but even today it still comes in handy .... a few months ago on holiday in Morocco. where the vast majority of city dwellers speak French, my rusty 'O' grade French came back somewhat, and in rural areas it was a mixture of Berber, Arabic and French and all of those languages also take something from Latin too. Here in Canada of course, French is an official language used in Quebec as well as other provinces and everything official is sent out in both languages. Kids here tend to learn both English and French but if I were young again, I would probably look to study either Cantonese or Mandarin as well as Spanish. Those languages would almost guarantee a high paid job and good career path somewhere in Canada.       

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