CTO - The Future

[Scotty]

I was originally going to post the following statement in the "Interesting" thread but decided it needed a place of its own on the main board as I think it is quite important.

Its threads like the "Interesting" thread (and a few other current ones) that sometimes make me wonder why Donald and myself bother putting in the time, effort and money we do to run this site.

The original poster, whether by design or accident invites a barrage of negativity by saying everyone is quiet after a win, and true to form the poster is proved 100% correct, a trait that is repeated in thread after thread after thread. And when we cant abuse <insert name of player or club official here> we get down to abusing our fellow supporters, site posters, or a particular favourite of many .... the mods and admin who volunteer their time to try and make sure it is a pleasurable place for fans of ICT to congregate and discuss things.

I have had some low points on the site a few times over the 15 years since I started it, but right now, I think it has reached bottom and I can honestly say that personally, I now take ZERO pleasure in reading this board and dealing with all the petty squabbles and back-biting that goes on. It is no longer a fun venture to run, it is a chore. For most of this season, once I have updated various report/stats/league-table pages on a Saturday, I tend to bugger off for the rest of the weekend secure in the knowledge that by Monday there will be some form of manufactured ****storm going on. For the most part, that Monday morning firefight has been something that has been way too easy to predict!!!

This situation, where some so-called fans of the club are showing utter contempt not only for the club and the team, but also for their fellow fans, and (in some cases) those who provide (or help to run) this free service where they can vent their spleen, is not a situation that can continue. That is not what this site is about. This is not why I started it, and it is not something I am willing to be a part of if it continues down this negative, petty and abusive road.

I am not saying we all have to be happy clappers, blissfully toe the party line and swallow all the BS that we get fed from time to time. I am not saying we cannot disagree with each other or the club in posts. I am not saying we cant highlight things that are wrong or be negative when there are negative things going on. thats what a forum is all about ... its a place to discuss things like adults, to put your point across or raise awareness of your concerns and to show the club that you will be heard when they do things you dont like or when results dont go our way. However, being constantly petty, abusive and negative dilutes any impact, influence, or relevance that this forum may once have had, or may have again in the future. Right now it is (quite correctly) seen as a joke or an irritation to many !

If you look back on both mine and Donald's posts of the last couple of years you will see that we have both praised the club when we thought they got it right but also been highly critical when we thought they got it wrong. I have agreed with many of you, I have disagreed with many of you and I have resembled both remarks with many of you too. However, in most cases, I have done so in the context of a discussion rather than being abusive. As far as I am concerned, that is the way it should be. Everyone should have the right to express their opinion, and everyone should be allowed to do so without being abused just because someone else disagrees. Contrary to popular belief, the moderation team will not delete a post just because it doesnt match our own opinion. One of the major reasons for that is that we don't all have the same opinions !! We quite deliberately chose a moderation team with diverse opinions and we think that has been shown to be the case over the last few seasons. Regardless of any issues we have with the running of the club, we are also usually first in the queue to offer our help where and when we can, or to browbeat first Mike and now Darren about things we can try and do, advertise, or get the club to do to benefit the fans as well as themselves ... thats part of being a fan and that desire has not diminished in me despite the miles (or my TFC season ticket).

However, if there is one thing that annoys me more than anything else on this board, and it is something that has been on the increase over the last 12 months, it is the type of reply that frequently comes after a post where someone expressed an opinion in polite and normal language, a response that calls them names that need to be asterisked or calls them stupid or basically denegrates or abuses them in some fashion. That is not acceptable. Depending on the veracity of the abuse it is somewhere between disrespectful and bullying and the bottom line is that if that is how you think you can behave, or want to behave, then quite simply we do not want you on this site, not now, not in the future, not ever. We are not telling you how to behave, that is entirely up to you, we are simply telling you what is and is not acceptable on this forum and reminding you that the consequences of inappropriate behaviour are wholly your fault.

Ok, now that I have got my feelings on the current situation out in the open for all to see, it is time to talk about a solution. I will be honest and say I do not know what it is in its entirety, I wish I did.

I know we could go to one extreme or the other with moderation and either over or under moderate ... in fact we continue to get both accusations thrown in our face on a regular basis right now. However, I know from experience that neither of these approaches will work so I have binned both of those ideas.

For that reason, I am therefore putting the onus on the site users themselves. Myself and Donald might pay the bills, and the moderators might volunteer to help run the site, but everyone on the site has a stake in its continued existence. My number one requirement is that the unsolicited and unwarranted abuse has to stop and we get back to being a discussion forum rather than a board where people feel they cant express an opinion without being bullied or abused for stating it. As I said above, it is fine to disagree or post an alternative viewpoint, but that should be done with at least a degree of civility. If we cant do that, then quite simply this forum may cease to exist in its current form, its as simple as that.

I have discussed my current feelings with the moderators and with Donald and we have had - and continue to have - a full and frank discussion on the matter. The bottom line is that we are prepared to look at how this forum is run and to make changes to our rules to accomodate any realistic and sensible suggestions from the userbase (for example: tightening up abuse penalties and perhaps relaxing other rules). We will also try once again to make the moderation and rule system more transparent and consistent so that it is clear to all what is and is not acceptable. However, it cannot and will not be a one-way street. Site users - assuming they want to remain members of this site - will have to play by whatever "golden rules" are finalised or they will face exclusion from the site regardless of who they are or how long they have been a member.

As I said above, I am willing to listen to sensible and realistic suggestions but I just want to make it clear that this thread is not going to be allowed to turn into a bitch-fest about how you got a warning for this or that or how you dont agree with certain things. If you got a warning and want to ask about it or have a problem with something then we have a process for dealing with complaints and you should send a message through the contact form in the site menu. Those kinds of posts will be deleted from this thread.

I want this thread to be for constructive comments and realistic suggestions. If there is some criticism mixed in and it is in the context of a reply with something constructive then that is fine. However, please be pre-warned that this posting is deadly serious and as melodramatic as it may sound, the future direction and existence of the site is on the table so if I feel that any poster is trying to "take the piss" on a subject that I feel is extrmely important I will have no hesitation in excluding them from the thread.

so now that I have said my piece and given out the guidelines for this thread, let the fun begin !!!

[DornochCaley]

<post removed>

Edited November 17, 2009 by Scotty
I thought it might take 2 or 3 replies but what a great start. the first user excluded from participation in this thread on the very first reply. A reminder to all ...... please read the post before replying. this is NOT the place to take the piss

[L_G]

:) :clapping04: :clapping04: :clapping04:

I hope we receive some positive feedback to help things move forward. I do understand your frustration, so let's work together to see if we can get the craic back.

Just one thing that bugs me most is the post of 2 or 3 words replying to a previous post which offers nothing what so ever to the topic. Think before you post and ask yourself is your response going to add anything to the discussion.

Edited November 17, 2009 by Scotty
removing the <l-o-n-g> quote

[Scotty]

could I just add - please also dont quote my initial post in your reply ... it is a long post and the thread will be massive if everyone quotes it. either quote from it selectively or not at all. cheers.

[Guest]

Excellent post Scotty.

Edit- For anyone wondering, my main account is bugged so Scotty kindly let me use this one.

Edited November 17, 2009 by Birdog2

[caley100]

The admins/moderators job is a thankless job, and i agree with you that there is a lot more shyte flying about on the forum these days, this however is vastly outweighed by the sensible and resonable posts from most users.

Have a yellow/red card system for breaching the rules -personal abuse should result in a ban, after all there is a facilty to keep arguments private -PM's.

[tokelyisvictorious]

Agree with L_G that people should think before they post.

I'm not one of the oldest members of the site but even i remember when this forum used to be about the humour.

It all seemed to take a turn for worst during the Brewster era and the hatred on the forum was poor.

[Guest]

Scotty, following our wee conversation could I be as bold as to suggest a possible shake up of your moderating team. I would not like to advocate that any mods are removed but I do think maybe someone on board with a more liberal attitude is taken in, someone who has a fresh attitude to allowing banter to flow. The reason that you guys removed the "official" tag from the website was to allow more freedom in what was posted but in the interest of maintaining strong ties with the club not much leeway has been gained (from what I can see, I know there must be a lot we are not privy to behind the scenes) some posts which I would consider banter are jumped on by mods without much explanation or any visible complaints.

Perhaps implementing a complaints forum such as is used on P&B might let members here know why people are offended at certain posts and would further let the rest of us know where the boundaries are. It may also allow the mods the chance to distance themselves a little from their duties and let their posts be seen as banter again instead of rubbing people up when there is no intention to do so.

[Doch4]

Scotty, sad to see it's come to this but applaud your leadership in trying to find a workable solution to the current issues.

I don't often post but read often.

I would like to see new users earn their posting rights. Initially they could be restricted to one post per day until a period of time passes to gain full write access. The probationary period could also be used to control users who fall foul of a new moderation points system. like yellow cards, you accumulate points until eventually you are put on restrictive posting permissions.

I would also like to see moderators explain themselves less. If a post is removed or edited then the user should assume that the post was deemed unacceptable and should re-read the rules of the message board or contact the webmaster for clarification. Mods should not get into it online with users. This would go a long way to relieving some of the pressure on the moderators. Moderators should also have the option of being anonymous. In many ways having anonymous moderators should remove personalization of dispute.

Well I'm beginning to foam at the mouth so I better get out and ride the bike. Good night and good luck!

[Heilandee]

Sorry to hear it's come to this Scotty,but i can understand exactly where your coming from.As an "outsider" but never having hidden my affection for ICT (as long as your no playing us) I have been along time user and contributer to the site in this and its previous guises and in all the years have been pleasantly surprised that not ONCE in that time have i been a victim to any abuse or negativity from any user for my user name or obvious support of an opposition team,(other than usual stick and banter i would expect and sometimes ask for)something which would be hard to do on most other team forums,where discussions or banter soon degenerate into vicious verbal slagging if you aren't from the home camp and i feel this says a lot about the humour and tolerance of the majority of site users

The official Dee forum gets round some of the problems by all posts having to be moderated before going on line,which must be massively tedious for moderators, but also IMO, makes the forum kinda sterile and lacking in"personalities"

I feel a lot of the current negativity is due to this being the first real downturn in ICT's fortunes and many younger fans have not had to endure "failure" before (they should take a wee shot of my shoes for the past 40 odd years to sample real suffering!!) Also society in general has become much ruder and less tolerant of others viewpoints and opinions.

I have had some great laughs on this website and made many mates,been introduced to new music,given technical help,played golf,been out on the pish, even been to a wedding! So please bear in mind the positives and pleasure the site gives to many when making your decisions.Hopefully those causing some of the problems can take a look at themselves,realise the time and effort that goes into giving them a plattform and be more respectful of fellow posters

[Alex MacLeod]

Scotty, following our wee conversation could I be as bold as to suggest a possible shake up of your moderating team. I would not like to advocate that any mods are removed but I do think maybe someone on board with a more liberal attitude is taken in, someone who has a fresh attitude to allowing banter to flow. The reason that you guys removed the "official" tag from the website was to allow more freedom in what was posted but in the interest of maintaining strong ties with the club not much leeway has been gained (from what I can see, I know there must be a lot we are not privy to behind the scenes) some posts which I would consider banter are jumped on by mods without much explanation or any visible complaints.

Perhaps implementing a complaints forum such as is used on P&B might let members here know why people are offended at certain posts and would further let the rest of us know where the boundaries are. It may also allow the mods the chance to distance themselves a little from their duties and let their posts be seen as banter again instead of rubbing people up when there is no intention to do so.

Birdog aka whoever.....over the years, because of how we make a living, you and I have had some good banter. i understand what you say about what is or isn't banter but you have to understand that many times over the last year or two the so called banter has turned into abuse and bullying. I have no problem with a person counteracting another with a 'don't be stupid' comment. I do. however, have a problem when the retort is ' your an @rse if you think that'. Or, as I've seen, 'F'ing retard'. And I'm not saying you are a culprit in that.

There are sites out there where people can say what they like and abuse who they like. The whole life of this site has been one of family values. We want to allow the adult to make his view. We want to allow the child to make his view. We want to remember that children are posting so we want to ensure adults also remember that.

We all look at many sites and we comment on many forums. Some don't give a damn but I. for one, would not moderate on a site where I could not protect the young and innocent. That is all I aim for. A family forum with family values.

[Guest]

That's all well and good Ronny but if you implemented a system like that then you lose the community feel of the board, you have to see this place for what it is and being a football forum it should be about the banter, like the stands at TCS should be about the banter. If you have some sort of understanding for your post being removed then you will not do it again otherwise you face the warning system.

What exactly is it you are looking for in a discussion board? I feel that a discussion board should be about that discussion, people will never totally agree on any subject and when you take a subject like football where emotions are strong then discussions will naturally get more passionate and a quick word in the ear should bring the emotional levels back to a level which is more acceptable to the wider community.

At the end of the day Ronny if you want ICT news with no soul, no human aspect or interaction then you should just read the official website or go to an online newspaper which allows comments to be posted below the story.

There is no doubt people, myself included, have been getting out of hand on here and this has probably led to some comments being taken the wrong way. I can't even contemplate trying to count the amount of times I have read a comment by someone and seen it as an attack against myself or someone else when in fact it was just an off the cuff remark, without explanation (as has happened many times) this can escalate into a war of words and spread like influenza into people taking sides and all sorts of personal battles developing throughout the membership.

There's nothing worse than having your point of view removed and being told the reason is "because I said so"

[Alex MacLeod]

Birdie, do we want this site as it is, with its family values and sensible moderation, or not.

[maimie]

Scotty, following our wee conversation could I be as bold as to suggest a possible shake up of your moderating team. I would not like to advocate that any mods are removed but I do think maybe someone on board with a more liberal attitude is taken in, someone who has a fresh attitude to allowing banter to flow. The reason that you guys removed the "official" tag from the website was to allow more freedom in what was posted but in the interest of maintaining strong ties with the club not much leeway has been gained (from what I can see, I know there must be a lot we are not privy to behind the scenes) some posts which I would consider banter are jumped on by mods without much explanation or any visible complaints.

Perhaps implementing a complaints forum such as is used on P&B might let members here know why people are offended at certain posts and would further let the rest of us know where the boundaries are. It may also allow the mods the chance to distance themselves a little from their duties and let their posts be seen as banter again instead of rubbing people up when there is no intention to do so.

i'm not very good at the techie stuff as most of you know but the bit i've highlighted first...

how do you know that there are not mods who have a 'more liberal attitude'? the mods at present have a wide variety of views and we, the mods, know that from having to debate every contencious post that some posters make - so painful and time consuming...

the second bit... the folk that overstep the mark are well aware of where the boundaries are. if they continue, like wee children to push them, the warning system at present and pms leave them in no doubt - if they continue to cross them then h*ll mend them. the problem is that most wee children like boudaries, feel comfortable with them...

it' possible that a complaints forum like p&b is a possibility and it would be interesting to see the views of the posters on here about that.

i for one get a bit fed up with the inane sh!te that's posted on here a lot of the time. i know there are folk who don't post any more because of it. that and the personal abuse which imvho is starting to overstep the mark...

edited to add... oh by the way - there is nothing wrong with a poster having to earn their rights - then they can banter all they want

Edited November 17, 2009 by maimie

[buckett]

One way of looking at it, is that we are at last witnessing the arrival of the first true ICT fans - ones that have never had any association with either of the 2 original clubs. They are young and raw but they'll grow up soon enough and learn to respect their fellow supporters. To many of them, the original Caley and Thistle supporters are irrelevant dinosaurs and as yet they don't fully realise that we all want to sing from the same song-sheet.

But they are the future and we are seeing the evolution of the club's support, and perhaps this website. Many of the 'Old Guard' have moved on and new cliques are being formed. Those who were 'in' before may feel like outsiders now.

Hey - melodrama is allowed in this thread - isn't it!?

I'd like to think there's a place for us all in this forum and I kinda like Ronnyc's idea of newcomers having to earn posting rights - after all a lot of the grief is caused by young posters who seem to have nothing better to do all day than contribute multitudes of meaningless or abusive posts to this site. Restricted posting rights during a probationary period may well be the solution - that way the mods can initially vet newcomers for mischief.

Of course there is the danger of the site becoming sterile, and only 'approved' banter being permitted. They do say that teenagers' humour and banter only appeals to other teenagers - perhaps it's the same with old gits and we don't want to end up alienating any group of site users on the basis of age.

[TopSix]

One aspect of CTO I find myself coming to rely on is news about the club. After relegation the amount of coverage we get, as everyone will be aware of, has decreased dramatically. Ergo, I find myself coming on here far more.

I realise that a lot of people give their time and money to run the site and for that I thank them.

Ultimately though we are operating within an oligarchical power structure here and there are those who have power and those who do not.

Edited November 17, 2009 by Top Six Next Year

[Alex MacLeod]

Bucket, the most important word in your post is....RESPECT

We remember banter. That banter was all about respecting the other persons view. Not about trying to score points..

I dont have a problem if someone tells me I talk sh!te. I do, however, have a problem if they tell me I'm a retard because I've talked sh!te.

[tm4tj]

Good morning everyone

Do have a nice day.

Edited November 18, 2009 by themann4thejob
post removed by myself as it is now out of context after previous post removed by poster.

[Alex MacLeod]

Please keep this thread about the subject and not about personal gripes

[Guest]

Please keep this thread about the subject and not about personal gripes

Point taken, post removed.

EDIT for the context of some posts from other users I have removed all my posts which add nothing to the original point, there is no need for my point scoring and I got carried away.

Alex is right this should be a family site and the bickering needs to stop but banter is sorely missed.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Birdog2

[TopSix]

The other thing I'd like to mention is the perhaps removing the number of posts people have on their profiles?

And much in a facebook kind of way a tab to 'like' a statement? Quite often people quote a statement and add a few words of agreement in - I've done this myself.

Oligarchical power struggles are at play already on this thread.

The 'net would be a poorer place without CTO.

ps can someone please remove this 10% warning off my profile please?

Edited November 17, 2009 by Top Six Next Year

[Alex MacLeod]

The other thing I'd like to mention is the perhaps removing the number of posts people have on their profiles?

And much in a facebook kind of way a tab to 'like' a statement? Quite often people quote a statement and add a few words of agreement in - I've done this myself.

Oligarchical power struggles are at play already on this thread.

The 'net would be a poorer place without CTO.

ps can someone please remove this 10% warning off my profile please?

Be a good boy and it will disappear soon.

[Yngwie]

The P&B complaints forum has been mentioned a couple of times. It has its merits in allowing users to air their views on what is acceptable, but the downsides are:

- the users seldom agree on whether a complaint is valid or not.

- a lot of people here would be reluctant to post or comment on a public complaints forum when their view is out of line with others

How do you overcome those issues?

[StockholmSyndrome]

Bucket, the most important word in your post is....RESPECT

We remember banter. That banter was all about respecting the other persons view. Not about trying to score points..

I dont have a problem if someone tells me I talk sh!te. I do, however, have a problem if they tell me I'm a retard because I've talked sh!te.

I agree, this kind of thing is unacceptable, unpleasant and just downright rude. And even if people aren't outright abusing each other there's still a depressing amount of posters bitching and taking pot shots at other fans. I mean, for Pete's sake, we're all supposed to be on the same side, aren't we??

I think Ronnyc's idea about having to earn posting privileges is a good one. It might help people to learn to actually think before posting nonsense. I would also favour stricter moderation, maybe restricting the troublemakers to a "quarantine" area for a while, or having a "three strikes and you're out" policy. I miss the community atmosphere we used to have and I'd be happy to get it back, even if it meant a tightening of the rules.

[12th Man]

Few valid points mentioned so far but I can see this running in to high numbers with people disagreeing about other people giving their honest opinion and getting nowhere, which seems to be missing the point.

Why not email the forum rules to all members highlighting the most valid ones, hopefully the ones that cant be bothered reading too much will pick up on the highlighted bits.

Its a start.