The Famine Song.

[Guest birdog]

William Walls was found guilty, and is now appealing, of racially and religiously aggrevated breach of the peace. Whilst I have absolutely no time for bigots on either side of the Irish fence I have been thinking about the case and it's appeal, due to the recent news headlines.

I think that Donald Finlay, in choosing the Flower of Scotland, chose the wrong national anthemn to prove his case. He would be far better choosing God Save the Queen as an example of a racist song openly sung at sporting events in the United Kingdom.

My reasoning for this stems from the match commander's reason behind having Mr Walls charged with singing the chorus of the famine song,

Although Walls only sang the refrain to the "Famine Song" the sheriff was told by the police match commander that football fans who heard it would know the rest of the words and that he found them offensive.

Now I, and many others, know the words to God save the Queen including the now defunct third verse,

Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,

May by thy mighty aid,

Victory bring.

May he sedition hush and like a torrent rush,

Rebellious Scots to crush,

God save the King.

and I find these to be far more racist than any words to the full version of the Famine Song. So because the definately non racist words "the famine is over, why don't you go home?" have been, in a court of law, judged to be racist due to people knowing the rest of the words, which could possibly be seen as racist, and the song effectively being outlawed then that, without a doubt, makes the national anthemn of the United Kingdom racist and it should be banned from being sung.

[Renegade]

I have no time for either God Save the Queen or Flower of Scotland, both deal with issues that people need to move on from and most both are quite frankly boring. But then again I always thought Flower of Scotland is NOT the Scottish anthem, Scotland the Brave is.

Edited May 19, 2009 by Renegade

[Guest birdog]

I have no time for either God Save the Queen or Flower of Scotland, both deal with issues that people need to move on from and most both are quite frankly boring. But then again I always thought Flower of Scotland is NOT the Scottish anthem, Scotland the Brave is.

The official National anthem is God save the King/Queen, Scotland the Brave was touted as an anthem for many years but was never official, Flower of Scotland is, today widely accepted as our national anthem. SEE HERE

Now can we please get back on topic?

[WYNESS101]

My dingwall mates sing this to me:

Why dont you go home,

Why dont you go home,

The Kessock bridge is that way,

Why dont you go home

[RednBlackComeback]

Defended by Donald Finlay.... .....you couldn't make that up !!

[Guest birdog]

Defended by Donald Finlay.... .....you couldn't make that up !!

I guess that the point you are trying to make, Donald Finlay being well known for his political views, is the reason he never chose to pursue God save the Queen as an example to state his case. Which raises the question of whether or not he gave his client the best defense possible?

Edited May 19, 2009 by birdog

[Alex MacLeod]

Scotland has no official national anthem. Flower of Scotland has been adopted as a sporting anthem and, perhaps, it works in that context but would not work as the national anthem of the country. If we're to have an anthem then let it be something new. Something that reflects the beauty of the country and the friendliness and resilience of its people. There have been a few song put forward as candidates but none have pleased the majority. In a poll of 10,000 in 2006 Flower of Scotland polled 41%, Scotland the Brave 29% and Highland Cathedral 16%. Of all the songs around at the moment I'd ignore all three of these and go for Caledonia.

Now to the debate about The Famine Song and others like Athenry, The Boyne, The Sash, Kevin Barry etc. I dont see any of those as being racist or bigotted. Its not the songs that are the problem but the context they are used. If they were sung openly for entertainment ok. If they are sung to goad and rile others maybe thats different.

I have an interest in world folk music and there are many songs from around the globe that were written in times of trouble and hatred and plenty of them could be construed as racist or bigotted but nobody bothers. They sing them because they like the song, not because of what its history or meaning is. We should not be picking out one group of songs from one part of the world and crying bogotry if we dont do the same with all songs from all parts of the world. What we should be concentrating on is educating the kids of today on the atrocities of the world. Many of which were brought about by the british and then written about in a romantic and acceptable fashion to brainwash the people that it was the right way to go about things. To this day the british pat themselves on the back in memory of the once great empire. An empire that was built on murder, rape and pillage and supported by whichever church was in vogue at the time. Let the people know the real truths and horrors and let them then make educated decisions on whether or not a few songs sung for ninety minutes once a week are enticing racism or bigottry.

[Guest birdog]

Scotland has no official national anthem. Flower of Scotland has been adopted as a sporting anthem and, perhaps, it works in that context but would not work as the national anthem of the country. If we're to have an anthem then let it be something new. Something that reflects the beauty of the country and the friendliness and resilience of its people. There have been a few song put forward as candidates but none have pleased the majority. In a poll of 10,000 in 2006 Flower of Scotland polled 41%, Scotland the Brave 29% and Highland Cathedral 16%. Of all the songs around at the moment I'd ignore all three of these and go for Caledonia.

Now to the debate about The Famine Song and others like Athenry, The Boyne, The Sash, Kevin Barry etc. I dont see any of those as being racist or bigotted. Its not the songs that are the problem but the context they are used. If they were sung openly for entertainment ok. If they are sung to goad and rile others maybe thats different.

I have an interest in world folk music and there are many songs from around the globe that were written in times of trouble and hatred and plenty of them could be construed as racist or bigotted but nobody bothers. They sing them because they like the song, not because of what its history or meaning is. We should not be picking out one group of songs from one part of the world and crying bogotry if we dont do the same with all songs from all parts of the world. What we should be concentrating on is educating the kids of today on the atrocities of the world. Many of which were brought about by the british and then written about in a romantic and acceptable fashion to brainwash the people that it was the right way to go about things. To this day the british pat themselves on the back in memory of the once great empire. An empire that was built on murder, rape and pillage and supported by whichever church was in vogue at the time. Let the people know the real truths and horrors and let them then make educated decisions on whether or not a few songs sung for ninety minutes once a week are enticing racism or bigottry.

A well written post with which I totally agree but,like all the other posts in here, it does not broach the subject of the topic. The point I'd like to discuss, if it is illegal to sing the Famine song's chorus based upon the fact that persons in the vicinity might know the rest of the words to the song then surely the singing of our national anthem, God save the Queen, is an illegal act due to the fact that people might know the words to the extremely racist third verse, whether it is used or not.

EDITED as I realised my mistake.

Edited May 19, 2009 by birdog

[Johnboy]

Legal Beagle Kingsmills is the man you want Birdog....

He is, at present posting some stuff on these boring ICT football threads!

[Guest birdog]

Legal Beagle Kingsmills is the man you want Birdog....

He is, at present posting some stuff on these boring ICT football threads!

Cheers, I'll drop him a PM this subject has really got me thinking.

[Johnboy]

I'm trying not to get involved here mate.... but it is difficult!

What about Esson and Mihadjuks who will probably be sitting on the bench for what is argueably the most important game in the history of ICT.

Does that not concern you?

[Guest birdog]

I'm trying not to get involved here mate.... but it is difficult!

What about Esson and Mihadjuks who will probably be sitting on the bench for what is argueably the most important game in the history of ICT.

Does that not concern you?

LOL yes indeed it does but I am trying my best not to think about Saturday too much, I am onboard ship atm so the fact that I am missing my family, I am away for my b-day and I am going to miss perhaps the biggest match of the club, who I have loved longer than I have my wife, has ever been iinvolved in leads me to think I may end up falling out with members of the forum if I get involved in a debate concerning ICT.

I told you before mate, I am trying to change my posting ways and I know that my emotions are running a bit high as far as footballing matters are concerned. So if we win on Saturday expect some joyous posts from me if we lose expect a torrent of rants aimed at our board of directors.

And thank you to Scotty and CaleyD for not biting at a post I made earlier in the week, I could have ended up making a right tit of myself........... again.

[Glebeict]

May be off topic ,but the only food that was affected were potatoes . Hardly a famine when all kinds of other food

was available at the time.

By the way Highlanders as well as the Irish were involved.

[Alex MacLeod]

May be off topic ,but the only food that was affected were potatoes . Hardly a famine when all kinds of other food

was available at the time.

By the way Highlanders as well as the Irish were involved.

Wrong mate. The potato was, not only the staple diet at the time, the main source of income for the country. the exportation of potato and other affected crops meant no finance available to import anything else. It meant the poorer folk, who relied on farming as their income, found themselves homeless and jobless with no means to support their families.

'Blight' which caused the problem was in the soil for around five years so crops couldn't grow and famine became rife. Some million or so died from starvation at this time.

The highlands of Scotland were, as you say, also affected but we were luckier in that the problem was not exacerbated by political problems and we had a better means of famine control in place.

Birdog, I agree with you in that if one song is racist then the other should be declared so too. Oh and I was offshore when we won the 1st div so I know the feeling.

[Guest birdog]

Well Alex I hope you make this one and I hope you get the same feeling of joy that I had and you missed out on the last time.

Edit- Feck me been on this forum too long, 6 hours on 6 hours off watchkeeping and I am back on at 1800hrs, be lucky to get an hour's kip before watch tonight.

Edited May 19, 2009 by birdog

[RednBlackComeback]

Defended by Donald Finlay.... :) :) :P .....you couldn't make that up !!

I guess that the point you are trying to make, Donald Finlay being well known for his political views, is the reason he never chose to pursue God save the Queen as an example to state his case. Which raises the question of whether or not he gave his client the best defense possible?

clicky

[Glebeict]

I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one Alex .

I think maybe you are reading British History Books , as they try to defend something thst would be called ethnic

cleansing these days.

My books state that there was plenty of food available, but the English sold it rather than distribute it to the people.

[Alex MacLeod]

I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one Alex .

I think maybe you are reading British History Books , as they try to defend something thst would be called ethnic

cleansing these days.

My books state that there was plenty of food available, but the English sold it rather than distribute it to the people.

Food available yes but not for the Irish. That same food is what helped the highlander survive but, as I said, political unrest kept the food from Ireland.

[Glebeict]

A lot of Highlanders came to Glengarry Canada at that time to join their relatives who were already settled here.

My great grandmother's brother , Donald MacLennan died shortly after landing in Canada.

He is at Grosse Ille Quebec where most of the Irish are also buried.

[Joe DiMaggio]

I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one Alex .

I think maybe you are reading British History Books , as they try to defend something thst would be called ethnic

cleansing these days.

My books state that there was plenty of food available, but the English sold it rather than distribute it to the people.

Food available yes but not for the Irish. That same food is what helped the highlander survive but, as I said, political unrest kept the food from Ireland.

The food was never kept from Ireland it was there already. Only a percentage of the crops failed but there was more than enough grown in Ireland to supply the whole of the population with ease it just wasnt distributed to the needing. The rich Irish landowners are responsible for the famine more than the British govt were

[Guest birdog]

The Index on Censorship, Britains leading anti censorship campaigners have begun a campaign to defend people's rigthts to sing the Famine Song. They have declared that "attempts to silence fans are a dangerous assault on free speech" LINK TO STORY HERE Index on Censorship Website

[DornochCaley]

The Index on Censorship, Britains leading anti censorship campaigners have begun a campaign to defend people's rigthts to sing the Famine Song. They have declared that "attempts to silence fans are a dangerous assault on free speech" LINK TO STORY HERE Index on Censorship Website

The Famine song is racist. You wouldnt sing this about Blacks so why is it ok to sing it about Irish? Only in Scotland will you fine something like this.

Also, we dont have free speech as such. If we did i would be able to go to the queen and tell her to **** off and say whatever i like to her. I bet 20 quid i would be throwen out for it. Meaning they are tryign to shut me up. Which means no free Speech. The Goverment let you say what they want you to say.

[DornochCaley]

And you cannot compair this to Fields of Anthenry. The Fields is a song about a man who has been taken away. The song is not supporting Rebeling either. Its stating that this man micheal, rebeled against the crown.

[Guest birdog]

The Index on Censorship, Britains leading anti censorship campaigners have begun a campaign to defend people's rigthts to sing the Famine Song. They have declared that "attempts to silence fans are a dangerous assault on free speech" LINK TO STORY HERE Index on Censorship Website

The Famine song is racist. You wouldnt sing this about Blacks so why is it ok to sing it about Irish? Only in Scotland will you fine something like this.

Also, we dont have free speech as such. If we did i would be able to go to the queen and tell her to **** off and say whatever i like to her. I bet 20 quid i would be throwen out for it. Meaning they are tryign to shut me up. Which means no free Speech. The Goverment let you say what they want you to say.

Before you go off onto a rant read the thread, my point is that if this thread is racist as the law says then God save the Queen is also racist. I would love to see God save the Queen banned because of a legal feck up.

[DornochCaley]

The Index on Censorship, Britains leading anti censorship campaigners have begun a campaign to defend people's rigthts to sing the Famine Song. They have declared that "attempts to silence fans are a dangerous assault on free speech" LINK TO STORY HERE Index on Censorship Website

The Famine song is racist. You wouldnt sing this about Blacks so why is it ok to sing it about Irish? Only in Scotland will you fine something like this.

Also, we dont have free speech as such. If we did i would be able to go to the queen and tell her to **** off and say whatever i like to her. I bet 20 quid i would be throwen out for it. Meaning they are tryign to shut me up. Which means no free Speech. The Goverment let you say what they want you to say.

Before you go off onto a rant read the thread, my point is that if this thread is racist as the law says then God save the Queen is also racist. I would love to see God save the Queen banned because of a legal feck up.

Oh belive me, I would also love to see it banned. Canna stand it.

I admit. In most threads i just read the last couple of Replys posted then comment on what has said in them.