Butcher & Malpas

[Alex MacLeod]

The OP asks,

Have they taken the club as far as they can?

I'd say NO!

I'd then ask. Have the club taken ICT as far as they can?

We are a small club with a small fanbase. The players we have work their socks of to achieve success but many of them are not of a standard to win that success on a regular basis. We are troubled by injury within a small squad. We're having to start players who aren't match fit. We can't afford a big enough squad to cover every eventuallity. As was said on another thread, we are a Div 1 club punching above our weight.

Butcher and Malpas came in too late to rescue the drop, though they were only a goal away from it. They took us straight back up. They've taken us beyond the relegation zone and they will take us to as high a position as they can in what is their first full season in this league with this team. They will have learned a great deal on the way to where we are and they will apply that learning as long as they remain with us. This season is far from being over and there are a few opportunities left to reach somewhere we have never been before.

[Ronaldo]

I agree and when we beat Motherwell and move on to 36 points on Saturday last night will become a distant memory

Although we played poorly last night and lost to clearly a better team, we could have easily scored the first goal and the game could have turned out different.

As for Terry and Mo, as someone said earlier they're learning all the time too.

[CaleyD]

With games in hand etc we are probaly going to be 10th, yes at the start of the seadon we would have been happy with 11th but things change in football, and looking at butcher after last night its a man lacking ideas, even in the press he admitted it, i always say the signs of a struggling manager is one who keeps changing his team, this aint happened yet but i can see it coming, if hamilton start getting wins we COULD be in trouble, yes they are a long way behind but seriously any sign of us picking up points?

look at how players at the start of the season to now, nick ross? is he even the same player? tokely attitude is back, rooney come on he is becoming a joke now, odhiambo dont even get me started,

we are not in trouble yet, butcher job aint under threat yet, but football is a funny game so nobody knows what will happen

I wouldn't say he is a man lacking ideas. If our home form was purely down to poor tactics, then I would agree, but it's not. Terry is not taking them on to the training pitch and showing them how to miss a pass or fail to get a foot on the ball. They don't all stand in a line and practice hoofing balls from one end of the pitch to the other. He can't go out there and kick the ball for them, and his team selections and set up are largely similar to what gets suggested on the "Team For" threads.

IMO, our problems at home are all in the head, and Terry is also doing all he can to deal with that situation.

Others are calling for change (although with the injuries etc we've had/got I'm not sure where they would be made) and you are saying that change would be a sign that he's lost it.....i.e. he can't win on that front.

I don't know what the answer/solution is, but I do think we've got a Manager with enough experience to get to the bottom of it and get the team out the other side.

[12th Man]

Jimmy Calderwood has beaten us whilst managing several different clubs over the years. If I was given the choice between Calderwood or Butcher

It would be Butcher without a doubt.

[Jeepsaw]

As said already, we don't have many options for some of the positions that need filled due to injuries. Having Hayes out has hurt as badly as far as creativity is concerned but credit to Butcher for managing to bring in a player to the standard of Doran. Width is definitely something we lack, we have plenty players that can cover the wide roles - Foran, Ross, Blumenstein but i don't think that any of them are as effective out wide as they are in the centre (infact i dunno if blumenstein is effective in any position). So we've had the problem of playing with an injury hit squad and an imbalance of cover for certain positions and this has left us playing very badly.

Butcher did an amazing job last season with mostly this squad. The last thing you would do after that run would be having a clear out, so we have been left with plenty of players that helped bring us success though aren't up to spl top 6 standard.

I think Butcher will have a busy summer getting rid of players that are past it to free up wages for hopefully some good new faces though he's always gonna struggle to bring in the quality we all want to take us further. On top of that he'll be trying to hang on to our best players.

Terry and Mo are definitely capable of taking us further and bringing us more success, its always going to be a struggle for anyone with our resources but he has the contacts and when we have the right players fit we play good, winning, attractive football with a decent balance of attack AND defence. And like i said with a wee clear out and some new faces (definitely a couple of natural wingers) we will be capable of playing our best most weeks.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Terry and Mo have done wonders for ICT in many ways but they also appear to be "protected species" in terms of criticism. Shure they have had their problems in regard to injuries, suspensions etc and probably more than most teams with a similar budget etc - especially in regard to important players BUT:

Some of their tactical, positional and selection changes have been very reactive - often in respect of a game to game mentality. I am very surprised that they have not especially settled on the first choice back four, sticking by it, keeping the main men in the same position if available, using the individuals in reserve to fill in particular positions and being frankly brutal and consistent in this respect. Playing individuals "out of position" does nothing for those players either or the ones they depose. And blind faith in certain individuals - which clearly frustrates the fans must have an effect on the players. Their also appears to be a game to game "blame" mentality adopted by fans

I am afraid that central midfield is very much the same scenario. It simply doesnt help the team, individuals, morale and confidence not knowing if you are playing from week to week, not knowing what position that you are playing in or what tactics and formation that the team are going to adopt.

Only Esson, Hayes, Foran and Rooney appear to have been exempted plus for long periods it has tended to apply to Shinnie and Ross - and are those players the ones who have also performed more consistently ?

Do Terry and MO actually know what their best X1 is ?

This is not a Terry and Mo out call but they have to shoulder a lot of the blame for the last few months. They won the SFL by sticking to the same game plan - why not start it off again in the SPL - starting now. If they had faith in the system and the players that started last nite they should have the conviction - and the B88lixcks to adhere to it. and before I get lamblasted have a look again at the Best x1 thread as last nights selection was NOT that far away from what many of the armchair pundits selected.

Getting Top 6 is now a bonus but continuity and improvement is all I am asking for - plus a win against the Old Filth and a day out at Hampden.

My advice to Tel is to pick his teams like he picks his red wine.

[PullMyFinger]

Have ICT taken Tel & Mo as far as they can? We are a small team with limitted resources and at the moment we are sitting in the highest position we have after the same number of games in the SPL. We are very unfortunate to have so many crocs at the moment but they'll be back and when they are we'll start to pick more points up.

Remember a little phrase that was being used a couple of years ago? I believe!

[caley100]

Trouble is that like his red wines there some players he favours and some he's loathe to pull the cork with, IE Russell who most fans will say deserves a game, gets dropped like a corked bottle of Rioja.

Playing 4 lumbering centre backs the other night was a worry, because we had (IMO) our best two centre defenders playing full backs and a right footed donkey beside a right footed Hogg in the middle.

- strange.

Russell should have been on to sort out the midfield, not a wee boy who has not got the strenght to mix it in a midfield battle, and thats what we needed.

[Jeepsaw]

It is a wonder why Duncan doesn't get his game all the time.

But we are limited when it comes to wide players in the midfield so Terry has been forced to play players out of position which hasn't always worked.

As for the 4 centre backs, i dunno who else could play full back. I can understand him playing Tokely at RB cos he was for years our 1st choice RB but sounds like he's not up to it anymore, Granty worked hard at left back on saturday and and i doubt Hogg or Innes would be as effective in that position though maybe Duff could have done the job at LB with Granty instead of Innes at centre back.

[ICT_Away]

Hogg played at right back for hibs on occasion. Given our injury state I would have gone with:

Hogg - Tokely - Granty - Duff

With Duncan an automatic pick in holding mid. That said Tel & Mo must have tried that in training and maybe it looked poor, who is to know...

[Donview]

Hogg played at right back for hibs on occasion. Given our injury state I would have gone with:

Hogg - Tokely - Granty - Duff

With Duncan an automatic pick in holding mid. That said Tel & Mo must have tried that in training and maybe it looked poor, who is to know...

We always struggle when Russell is dropped/scapegoat, yet Cox is picked ahead of him. Said it before and will repeat, Cox is no match for Duncan in any shape or form and his backtracking in particular infuriates me..........just gives up and looks as though he can't be arsed.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

You are not getting the drift - we all have our favourites and our perspectives - that will always be the entitlement of the fans and doubtless we could all come up with our favoured selections - but that "skill" should be the mark and the imposition of the manager - I am calling for consistency all round - not reactivity or damaging changeability.

[CaleyD]

Similar threads have been merged.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

The reason that I posted on new topic is that my "point" differs significantly in context to Mr Magic Roundabout - although fer once he has offered an understandable statement. My post does not allude to whether Messrs Butcher and Malpas have taken the club far enuff but relates more to constructive criticism and apportioning of some blame to an apparently protected dynamic duo - in many ways it is an observation that, if heeded and followed, could actually lead IMHO to the Messiah and Miss Marples actually taking the club to a higher plain.

[PullMyFinger]

It's all relative though isn't it? Look at the clubs around us, their attendances and wages budget. We're not doing too bad considering. I'd have bitten your hand off if you offered me 7th place approaching 30 games in at the start of the season or our last season in the SPL. Another full season and I think we'll see the club moving forward but I'd hate to think we overstretch our budget to avoid the 3 team trap door should it happen.

[tm4tj]

You are right, we did get a bit of a false dawn with the great first half of the season and we should be grateful, but when the carrot was dangled, we all wanted a bit of it. Anything above bottom is grand, I just would like some entertainment into the bargain.

We, the club, are victims of our own success.

[Alex MacLeod]

To the folk who dished out the red dots for my last comments, would it not make for more constructive debate if you were to actually say where you think I am wrong?

[starchief]

Hogg played at right back for hibs on occasion. Given our injury state I would have gone with:

Hogg - Tokely - Granty - Duff

With Duncan an automatic pick in holding mid. That said Tel & Mo must have tried that in training and maybe it looked poor, who is to know...

Wasn't Duff tried at LB a couple of weeks ago but was so poor, he lasted half an hour. I don't see that back four as any better (and probably not any worse) as the back 4 picked.

[Doofer]

I think all ICT fans would have been very happyt indeed if they'd known at the start of the season that with 10 games to go ICT were 7th, still in with a very good shot of the top 6th and 18 points ahead of the bottom club. Although the form has not been great lately i am still very happy with this season and look forward to a long reign of terry and mo at the helm.

To answer the thread question, no they haven't take us as far as they can. They have done very well so far and if we dont make the top 6 this season then i am sure they can try and take us there next season.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Mmmm - That is why I chose to post in to a New Topic as most responses are to the original post or are peeple simply not debating the points that I made. In most vocations you are in a continuous learning curve and taking criticism and responding constructively is a positive "skill" in itself. Why are peeple appearing so protectiely defensive _ it wouldnt surprise me if Terry and Mo werent prepared to admit to making mistakes. It just frustrates me that blame is regularly being apportioned to individual players, the skill levels of some players, pitches, the fans, funding and the media - fer fecks sake the peeple in charge have to take some of the accountability.

I was even contemplating another post but better add it on here - I feel that we are really suffering from not being able to play regular B team or reserve fixtures in a more competitive nature. I keep on hearing about individuals performing well on the training grounds - I know some skilled individuals who looked like world beaters on the training grounds but could not bear that out when it came to the nitty gritty. You just cant wholly rely on the training ground to look at yer options for a game in the SPL. The training ground should be where dead ball and set plays should be practised.

[davie]

Mmmm - That is why I chose to post in to a New Topic as most responses are to the original post or are peeple simply not debating the points that I made. In most vocations you are in a continuous learning curve and taking criticism and responding constructively is a positive "skill" in itself. Why are peeple appearing so protectiely defensive _ it wouldnt surprise me if Terry and Mo werent prepared to admit to making mistakes. It just frustrates me that blame is regularly being apportioned to individual players, the skill levels of some players, pitches, the fans, funding and the media - fer fecks sake the peeple in charge have to take some of the accountability.

I was even contemplating another post but better add it on here - I feel that we are really suffering from not being able to play regular B team or reserve fixtures in a more competitive nature. I keep on hearing about individuals performing well on the training grounds - I know some skilled individuals who looked like world beaters on the training grounds but could not bear that out when it came to the nitty gritty. You just cant wholly rely on the training ground to look at yer options for a game in the SPL. The training ground should be where dead ball and set plays should be practised.

You are, as usual substantially right aged immortal. There was a false dawn, there was a period where results were better than our ability merited, especially when the depth of our squad was shown to be shallow as when the injuries kicked in. But the men in charge have to share some culpability in that we have been shown to be tactically naive at times. Tuesday was a case in point. United brought on Bauben, which meant that Cox had to face up to him and Gomis in midfield. He had played Gomis well to that point, but with the two of them it took Utd. 4 mins to score. Cox was overrun, and TB's response - bring on Alex MacDonald. He's a fine player in the making but he ain't no holding midfielder which we needed at that time. There was one sitting on the bench, who I hope was (justifiably) frustrated. There have been other instances this year of substitutions that were too late, playing people out of position etc. But you know what? It's OK. we are 7th right now, we're in the QF of the cup. we won't go down barring a bigger collapse than a chilean mineshaft. They have got far more right than wrong but they ain't perfect. I'm still a fan.

[CaleyD]

Mmmm - That is why I chose to post in to a New Topic as most responses are to the original post or are peeple simply not debating the points that I made. In most vocations you are in a continuous learning curve and taking criticism and responding constructively is a positive "skill" in itself. Why are peeple appearing so protectiely defensive _ it wouldnt surprise me if Terry and Mo werent prepared to admit to making mistakes. It just frustrates me that blame is regularly being apportioned to individual players, the skill levels of some players, pitches, the fans, funding and the media - fer fecks sake the peeple in charge have to take some of the accountability.

I think your lack of home games is preventing you from seeing/understanding exactly what is going on at TCS. We're suffering because players are not out there playing to their full potential and all the tactics in the world counts for nothing if you have a team unable to string more than two passes together and who spend the game hoofing the ball up the park and putting themselves under constant pressure as a result. It's clear from the instructions coming from the bench and the frustration of Terry and Mo that this is far from the game plan the players have been asked to execute and I fail to see why he should be shouldering the blame for that.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the players are not putting in the effort as they clearly are, but for some reason they just can't pull it together at home and it's not because we are being tactically outwitted.

IMO Terry calls it as it is and I don't think he's been afraid to admit when he's made mistakes.

I was even contemplating another post but better add it on here - I feel that we are really suffering from not being able to play regular B team or reserve fixtures in a more competitive nature. I keep on hearing about individuals performing well on the training grounds - I know some skilled individuals who looked like world beaters on the training grounds but could not bear that out when it came to the nitty gritty. You just cant wholly rely on the training ground to look at yer options for a game in the SPL. The training ground should be where dead ball and set plays should be practised.

I don't think you'll get much argument from anyone on this point and the club do try and arrange as many closed door friendlies as they can, when they can, in order to give fringe players and those returning from injury a chance for a bit of competitive match time. However, given how thin our squad has been lately and the fact we're struggling to put a full squad out on match days then it's probably just as well we're not committed to reserve fixtures where we would risk compounding the issue.

[Scarlet Pimple]

Al I hope is that the niggly comments on here don't infect the players because the team does not need that if it wants to get up off the floor.

When I had a service business I hired a good-looking boy who said all the right things. Shortly after I had personlly trained him and obtained his agreement that he fully understood the work before I let him "go out" on his own, I was appalled to find out shortly afterwards that said lad was not even making the slightest attempt to do the simple work assigned to him. So on the same evening I fired him, accompanied by some pointed comments, and his retort was "you know ,Scarlet,you will get more with honey than with vinegar" which took the wind out of my sails because I then realised that his appearance and assurances had fooled me. And I should have kept a close eye on ho\im from the beginning.

The moral of the story is ....you can lead a horse to water but if his heart isn't in it, or he does not have a highly developed character or a very good and responsible attitude, then you had better cut your losses.

Terry does not have that option, no matter how much he jiggles the contents of the pot, he needs the players he has to do the work and this is not a big club with a big budget.

Not saying that any, or all, of the players fall into the type of category I mention but many injuries have totally disrupted the team, repeat losses have undermined the confidence of these players and, as mentioned above, probably this team is no longer fresh and think in their hearts that relegation will not now regardless.

The question is ...Is the team now off the boil and , if so , what lies ahead for Terry and Mo?

[RiG]

At this moment in time I would say battling for a top six spot is as far as ICT can realistically go unless we somehow come into a bit more money. A good Cup run would also be welcomed. I wouldn't say we are punching above our weight. I think we are an SPL club albeit at the lower end of the table more often than not. That's not to say that we shouldn't be concerned with the current run which is very poor indeed and the continuation of the shocking home form is of particular cause for concern.

I think Butcher and Malpas are taking the club as far as the club can go and ultimately as far as they can realistically expect to take it. That doesn't mean I think they should go of course. We're on course to survive after getting back into the SPL and I think that's what we all would have liked at the start of the season. And a few more home wins of course!

[buckett]

Because the team made such a good start this season, expectations have become very high, with even talk of a European place not so long ago.

Thinking back to our first ever season in the SPL, the emphasis then was on consolidating our place in the SPL, ensuring we didn't go straight back down, as we were favourites to do. Eleventh place would have been quite sufficient for most of us back then. I suppose we had hopes and expectations of better things in seasons to come and I think we did indeed achieve a higher position at the end of our second SPL season.

So why don't we look at this as a season for consolidating our place in the SPL, accept our excellent start to the season as a bit of a bonus, and once we survive relegation and prove beyond doubt our right to remain in the SPL, look to the next season to build upon our achievements? A bit like the last time we were new to the SPL.

What's good for Brewster is good for Terry and Mo!