The Big Scottish Independence Debate

[PullMyFinger]

O.T.	It was really kind of The Inverness Courier to provide a urinal outside their offices on Stadium Road.

[Oddquine]

This might shed a little light

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-hope-of-the-future/

 

Misinformation and disinformation will always influence the impressionable. 

 

Bugger, PMF......spent bliddy ages composing a response to Charles Bannerman's post to keep dougiedanger onside....and now you come in and send me back to the drawing board.   That leaflet is just as bad as Simon Heffer's crap on  the English issue of the Daily Mail today , which has even got some English and pro-unionist  people incensed.

 

Have to say, I'm still really struggling to work out how anyone in Westminster thinks that the fact that there is a UK representation gives Scotland more than about 9% of a whispered voice and no actual input in the UN.......and it is frankly hilarious that the UKOK gang are taking credit for the free tuition and prescriptions.......and the EU membership that we may well, on a No Vote find ourselves out of whether we want to be or not.

 

And there are really people who believe every word of that ordure.  I can forgive those who feel British first and Scottish second...got cousins older than me who are going to vote no......but not anyone who bases their vote on the crap produced by the UKOK Project Fear campaign..

 

Frankly...if we vote no this time.....there is going to be a lot of animosity at the UKOK tactics. Nobody much minds losing a fair fight.....but the Bitter together campaign  wouldn't know fair if it reared up and got them by the throat.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Oddquine

[dougiedanger]

While we await Oddquine's latest mauling of CB, I will note his diversionary tactic of twisting the vote into a referendum on Alex Salmond rather than a vote on whether the Scottish people want to take full responsibility for governing their own country.

 

People are often quite like those they profess to hate, so we find in CB's posts much of the self-important bluster and pontificating that he claims to dislike in the First Minister. 

 

Anyway, I will let Oddquine deliver her far more incisive critique of his latest guff.

[Oddquine]

While we await Oddquine's latest mauling of CB, I will note his diversionary tactic of twisting the vote into a referendum on Alex Salmond rather than a vote on whether the Scottish people want to take full responsibility for governing their own country.

 

People are often quite like those they profess to hate, so we find in CB's posts much of the self-important bluster and pontificating that he claims to dislike in the First Minister. 

 

Anyway, I will let Oddquine deliver her far more incisive critique of his latest guff.

 

Flipping heck... .apply pressure why don't you?     As PMF has stopped me in my tracks for tonight and I'm away for the weekend tomorrow, I won't be responding in the short term to Charles Bannerman's conflating of an Aberdeen Schools referendum result with  the notion that the younger generation are massively against independence.  But to be fair if I was a youngster and had read that leaflet handed over by the Bitter together Crowd...I'd have voted against it myself.

 

In the meantime, here's a read for the undecided. http://www.scribd.com/doc/134771714/An-Evidence-Based-Case-for-Scottish-Independence    It's about 100 pages and the figures don't really start until about page 24......but it is in manageable chunks and not written by a politician.   And now I'm off to bed.

[PaderbornCaley]

Sorry for going off topic but instead of creating a new thread I thought i'd share this on here since it's political.  Made me laugh.  This coming from the 'Bongo Bongo Land' MEP.

 

http://www.channel4.com/news/ukips-godfrey-bloom-biffs-michael-crick

[+bughtmaster]

nice bit of light relief

[Yngwie]

Thankfully Scotland's independence party comprises sane, normal people. Everyone I've ever seen from UKIP has been absolutely barmy.

 

 

Edit to add: he strikes again - on the panel at a "women in politics" event today, he quipped "This place is full of sluts!" 

Edited September 20, 2013 by Yngwie

[The Mantis]

While we await Oddquine's latest mauling of CB, I will note his diversionary tactic of twisting the vote into a referendum on Alex Salmond rather than a vote on whether the Scottish people want to take full responsibility for governing their own country.

 

People are often quite like those they profess to hate, so we find in CB's posts much of the self-important bluster and pontificating that he claims to dislike in the First Minister. 

 

I fear you oversimplify. FWIW I see Salmond as assertive, if occasionally a bit smug. Not in the least inclined to bluster- affable even when faced with the winduppery of the likes of Paxman.

Unfortunately CB seems to have a dose of the passive/aggressives and the hatred of Salmond the man is there in every sneering reference. Play the ball not the man is what I say ;-)

[dougiedanger]

 

While we await Oddquine's latest mauling of CB, I will note his diversionary tactic of twisting the vote into a referendum on Alex Salmond rather than a vote on whether the Scottish people want to take full responsibility for governing their own country.

 

People are often quite like those they profess to hate, so we find in CB's posts much of the self-important bluster and pontificating that he claims to dislike in the First Minister. 

 

I fear you oversimplify. FWIW I see Salmond as assertive, if occasionally a bit smug. Not in the least inclined to bluster- affable even when faced with the winduppery of the likes of Paxman.

Unfortunately CB seems to have a dose of the passive/aggressives and the hatred of Salmond the man is there in every sneering reference. Play the ball not the man is what I say ;-)

 

Fair points, it's a neat diversion to turn this vote into a referendum on Salmond or the SNP, as that seems to give an excuse for not facing the real question: do you believe your country should be independent?

 

If it helps the doubters: I am sure in an independent country a form of the BBC will still exist, as will the cafeterias at Tesco, Morrison's, etc., and all BB badges will still be valid.

[+DoofersDad]

 

 

If it helps the doubters: I am sure in an independent country a form of the BBC will still exist, as will the cafeterias at Tesco, Morrison's, etc., and all BB badges will still be valid.

 

 

It may help the doubters - but help them to decide what?  People in general are fearful of change and so saying that a lot of the day to day things we are comfortable with will still be there after independence is intended to reassure.  But on the other hand, if there is little change in the day to day normality of life, folk may well wonder what the point is in such a radical political change. 

[Charles Bannerman]

I am sure in an independent country a form of the BBC will still exist.

You actually raise another serious questionmark against separation there - which I am sure you will try also to categorise in your so called "Project Fear".

But with less than 9% of the BBC's current licence fee revenue, I would be interested to see what kind of service a Scottish equivalent would be able to provide - even if it were to try to raise a few more quid by imposing lots of adverts on viewers of and listeners to... what?

The BBC is actually an excellent example of one of the fundamental benefits of the Union - economies of scale.

[+bughtmaster]

 

While we await Oddquine's latest mauling of CB, I will note his diversionary tactic of twisting the vote into a referendum on Alex Salmond rather than a vote on whether the Scottish people want to take full responsibility for governing their own country.

 

People are often quite like those they profess to hate, so we find in CB's posts much of the self-important bluster and pontificating that he claims to dislike in the First Minister. 

 

I fear you oversimplify. FWIW I see Salmond as assertive, if occasionally a bit smug. Not in the least inclined to bluster- affable even when faced with the winduppery of the likes of Paxman.

Unfortunately CB seems to have a dose of the passive/aggressives and the hatred of Salmond the man is there in every sneering reference. Play the ball not the man is what I say ;-)

 

 

Very difficult to -play the ball when the man only shows you part of it

[dougiedanger]

 

I am sure in an independent country a form of the BBC will still exist.

You actually raise another serious questionmark against separation there - which I am sure you will try also to categorise in your so called "Project Fear".

But with less than 9% of the BBC's current licence fee revenue, I would be interested to see what kind of service a Scottish equivalent would be able to provide - even if it were to try to raise a few more quid by imposing lots of adverts on viewers of and listeners to... what?

The BBC is actually an excellent example of one of the fundamental benefits of the Union - economies of scale.

 

 

Self-interest, perchance?

[The Mantis]

Now that the BBC has been instructed to clarify which news items refer only to England and/or Wales, rather than so called 'national' items, the tokenism applied by the BBC to Scotland (and, up to a point, the so-called 'North') is even more apparent than ever. As a result, we are pretty well informed about life down there, whereas people down there have to rely on stereotypes of life in Scotland as supplied by the Sun, Daily Mail or Evening Standard.

An example of this tokenism is (thanks Yngwie) the moving of the soap Waterloo Road to Greenock in response to criticism of the BBC in a report which showed that the BBC sourced only 3% of its programmes in Scotland rather than the 9% which license payers would expect.

As for BBC Scotland, it doesn't take much searching, e.g. Wings Over Scotland or Derek Bateman, to discover the incestuous relationship that exists between them and the Labour Party.

[Charles Bannerman]

 

 

 

 

Self-interest, perchance?

 

Nope. I'm sufficiently close to retiring from that as well that by the time the doomsday scenario kicked in it really wouldn't make much difference at all on a personal level. (I am only an occasional freelance contributor and not on the staff by the way.) So the only worry is having to spend my years of leisure listening to and watching the kind of stuff that a tiny budget broadcaster would be able to offer.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Charles Bannerman

[Charles Bannerman]

 

 

Play the ball not the man is what I say ;-)

 

 

Very difficult to -play the ball when the man only shows you part of it

 

As much as that?!

So far he hasn't even told us what shape he wants his ball to be, although we do follow that much of the time just wants to share the ball (on issues ranging from e.g. currency and fiscal policy to sports coaching facilities) owned by the bigger team across the fence which he wants to build.

[The Mantis]

share the ball (on issues ranging from e.g. currency and fiscal policy to sports coaching facilities) owned by the bigger team across the fence which he wants to build.

Yes, I can understand your confusion, given that the UK bank insists on calling itself Bank of England! However Sterling is not an English currency, but belongs to all of us. Maybe Alex or his successor will let them use it too!

[The Mantis]

Btw, folks, there's a massive Indy demonstration in the capital today. People were tweeting to me that they were still in the Royal Mile waiting to move off a couple of hours after the head of the procession had moved off for Calton Hill.

I'm sure you'll be able to get full coverage on the BBC!

[Yngwie]

Officially 8,000  - so there'll be far more folk watching ICT today. 

[The Mantis]

They're not using Uncle Roy's calculator then!

[Charles Bannerman]

 

share the ball (on issues ranging from e.g. currency and fiscal policy to sports coaching facilities) owned by the bigger team across the fence which he wants to build.

Yes, I can understand your confusion, given that the UK bank insists on calling itself Bank of England! However Sterling is not an English currency, but belongs to all of us. Maybe Alex or his successor will let them use it too!

 

What an incredible selectivity about what the Nats want to opt out of! Why not just share the oil as well?

[Charles Bannerman]

They're not using Uncle Roy's calculator then!

7pm news report - "Police estimate that over 8000 took part. Organisers claim that the turnout was between between 20,000 and 30,000."

Sounds like the Oil Revenues Calculator has been pressed into service then.

[The Mantis]

What an incredible selectivity about what the Nats want to opt out of! Why not just share the oil as well?

(Takes the merest nibble at the bait before remembering that CB is a black belt in selectivity )

[Oddquine]

 

I am sure in an independent country a form of the BBC will still exist.

You actually raise another serious questionmark against separation there - which I am sure you will try also to categorise in your so called "Project Fear".

But with less than 9% of the BBC's current licence fee revenue, I would be interested to see what kind of service a Scottish equivalent would be able to provide - even if it were to try to raise a few more quid by imposing lots of adverts on viewers of and listeners to... what?

The BBC is actually an excellent example of one of the fundamental benefits of the Union - economies of scale.

 

 Just home.......never intended to recognise your existence until I had sobered up (had a bottle of red) and became less swearie inclined......but, imo, who gives a toss about a taxpayer paid Scottish equivalent of the Project Fear BBC supporters? Really?   I think that an SBC would be the death of democracy in Scotland just as the BBC has been in the UK!

 

Why would we be even wanting to pay for a  state subsidised entity which is little more than a brainwashing mouthpiece for the state....whether that is for the UK state or the possible Scottish one.(and one which, in print produces worse grammar and spelling that I do pretty smashed.)   Having spent a lot of time listening to BBC radio, perusing BBC online input ,BBC blogs, etc since independence was mooted.....few of which are open to comment in Scotland, btw....I'm not prepared to have the likes of you in a Scottish BC brainwashing my children/grand children etc in an independent Scotland as the media is currently doing UK  Wide.

 

Project Fear is not a new thing.......it is what all Governments have always used to combat possibilities they don't want..or alternatively to ramp up possibilities they are gagging to accomplish.  Project Fear brought us Afghanistan and Iraq, Trident, the terrorism acts here and the Patriot acts in the US  ..and to an extent, even the economic meltdown.because of the fear that we would be left behind profit-wise as the USA reduced financial controls of banks to let them rip the population from bahookey to breakfast time..so we followed suit. 

 

The current Project Fear version is in the "possibilities they don't want" stable...because they can't..and you know they can't come up with any real reason NOT  to end the Union.....bar  it will be really bad for the UK.or what will be left of it. So far as I am  aware coming out of the Union would reduce the UK influence in the world...(hidden in the weasel words  "no Scottish input in international entities"...as if there had ever been any in the past 300 or so years ), To me, Project Fear confirms the utter childishness of what will be left of the UK epitomised by their never-ending cry of "you're not going to be able to do that"...re currency, the EU, the UN, NATO, pensions, welfare, oil, etc.as if the UK/rUK was god.and lies and misrepresentation were facts.  .

 

Explain to me  why we would WANT, in an Independent Scotland to pay tax, which is what the licence fee is, to set up a government  mouthpiece to shaft the people who pay for it as is happening in the UK at the moment?

[PullMyFinger]

 

 

I am sure in an independent country a form of the BBC will still exist.

You actually raise another serious questionmark against separation there - which I am sure you will try also to categorise in your so called "Project Fear".

But with less than 9% of the BBC's current licence fee revenue, I would be interested to see what kind of service a Scottish equivalent would be able to provide - even if it were to try to raise a few more quid by imposing lots of adverts on viewers of and listeners to... what?

The BBC is actually an excellent example of one of the fundamental benefits of the Union - economies of scale.

 

 

Self-interest, perchance?

 

It's the unionist way.