The Big Scottish Independence Debate

[dougiedanger]

Did they not have spelling in ye olden days?

[Laurence]

Did they not have spelling in ye olden days?

Get off my case mate

This is becoming personal

You have had the benefit of a modern educational system established by Harold Wilson in the 1960s

I never went to a modern school I left at 14 to work in the cotton mills of Lancashire.

I was caned nearly every day. We had to salute the teacher when s/he came into the classroom. We had the same teacher for every subject.

We had no exams , no qualifications, no future except to produce cotton. So don't lecture me about being old and badly educated.

[dougiedanger]

You'd have thought those experiences would have led to a bit of humility. 

[Ayeseetee]

 

no exams , no qualifications, no future  So don't lecture me about being badly educated.

 

 

This sounds exactly like me and you had a go at my grammer and spelling on this thread!

 

grow some thicker skin Mr hypocrite.

[Laurence]

I give up sounds like bad manners and sarcasm will be winners on this forum

[dougiedanger]

Trouble at t'mill. 

[Charles Bannerman]

I give up sounds like bad manners and sarcasm will be winners on this forum

No Laurence. Don't give up to bullying and intimidation. It was refusal to be submerged by such behaviour that played such a large part in the significant NO victory of two weeks ago.

[+DoofersDad]

I see Salmond is now defending his proposal to introduce legislation to make it illegal for councils to pursue poll tax arrears by saying that because of a 20 year rule, it is actually illegal for them to chase these debts now.  So, he's introducing new legislation to stop councils doing something which is illegal in any case.     If indeed the 20 year rule does mean that councils can no longer chase these debts, all that is required is a routine Government letter to Council Chief Execs reminding them of that fact and telling them not to do it.  Instead he wastes public money with a political stunt.  It seems the guy has completely lost the plot.

[Yngwie]

Regarding some of today's posts, this is again getting waaaay too personal, and if it continues in that vein people will find themselves getting banned from the topic without further warning.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Yngwie

[Charles Bannerman]

Regarding some of today's posts, this is again getting waaaay too personal, and if it continues in that vein people will find themselves getting banned from the topic without further warning.

Agreed.

 

PS - I take it that it's still OK to criticise Salmond? (Or was your warning in part prompted by the visit you may just have had from large, tattooed, skinheaded men in grey kilts?) 

[+DoofersDad]

I give up sounds like bad manners and sarcasm will be winners on this forum

Take consolation from the fact that if they had anything worth saying, they would say it.  A lack of respect for other posters is the refuge of those who don't like what you're saying but can't argue against it. 

[Yngwie]

 

PS - I take it that it's still OK to criticise Salmond?

 

That's a bit like asking on a matchday thread if it's OK to criticise the ref. Part and parcel!

[Ayeseetee]

Regarding some of today's posts, this is again getting waaaay too personal, and if it continues in that vein people will find themselves getting banned from the topic without further warning.

 

I just found the ignore settings page, I just wish I had found it earlier 

[Ayeseetee]

 

I give up sounds like bad manners and sarcasm will be winners on this forum

Take consolation from the fact that if they had anything worth saying, they would say it.  A lack of respect for other posters is the refuge of those who don't like what you're saying but can't argue against it. 

 

 

his argument was that he was uneducated and worked in a cotton mill...

 

 

I had to leave school when I was 15 because my single mother fell mentally ill and I had to look after her plus when I was at school I was pretty much left to rot hence my spelling / grammer.

 

 

That was less than 10 years ago and I have moved on and become a stronger person because of it and I didn't feel the needed to bring it up until now.

 

Everyone has tough times in their lives not just you!

Edited October 3, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Renegade]

 

I give up sounds like bad manners and sarcasm will be winners on this forum

Take consolation from the fact that if they had anything worth saying, they would say it.  A lack of respect for other posters is the refuge of those who don't like what you're saying but can't argue against it. 

 

 

To be quite honest, that statement sums up Laurence perfectly.  People can put forward any viewpoints they like, but they need to be backed up.  The vast majority of his are ill-informed ramblings.  The "SNP have no future and no money" statement being a prime example.

 

I think the main thing that turns people off though, is not his political views at all.  It's the manner he comes across.  I don't know if it's intentional, but in the vast majority of his posts, he comes across as very arrogant and condescending, almost at times talking down to us, as if we Scots are lesser people than him.  While it is wrong to attack people's personal lives, maybe if he refrained from bringing his personal life into everything, such "attacks" would never have started in the first place.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Renegade

[Laurence]

I give up sounds like bad manners and sarcasm will be winners on this forum

Take consolation from the fact that if they had anything worth saying, they would say it.  A lack of respect for other posters is the refuge of those who don't like what you're saying but can't argue against it. 

 

To be quite honest, that statement sums up Laurence perfectly.  People can put forward any viewpoints they like, but they need to be backed up.  The vast majority of his are ill-informed ramblings.  The "SNP have no future and no money" statement being a prime example.

 

I think the main thing that turns people off though, is not his political views at all.  It's the manner he comes across.  I don't know if it's intentional, but in the vast majority of his posts, he comes across as very arrogant and condescending, almost at times talking down to us, as if we Scots are lesser people than him.  While it is wrong to attack people's personal lives, maybe if he refrained from bringing his personal life into everything, such "attacks" would never have started in the first place

I don't mind opinions at all

I don't like personal attacks

cracks about my education

cracks like his rambling

If you don't like my opinions fine

But don't justify your opinion by personal abuse of the person you disagree with

Keep to the facts and keep my personality out of it and all will be fine

Attacking me calling me a hypocrite , saying I ramble does not justify your case one iota.

It just sums up the attackers perfectly

Keep to the facts, If you think there is a future for Nationalism say so, but don't deny my right to say " its dead in the water*, because along with 2,000,000 others I think it is.

Get my point?. Now post away with dignity.

[Ayeseetee]

 

 

 

I give up sounds like bad manners and sarcasm will be winners on this forum

Take consolation from the fact that if they had anything worth saying, they would say it.  A lack of respect for other posters is the refuge of those who don't like what you're saying but can't argue against it. 

 

 

To be quite honest, that statement sums up Laurence perfectly.  People can put forward any viewpoints they like, but they need to be backed up.  The vast majority of his are ill-informed ramblings.  The "SNP have no future and no money" statement being a prime example.

 

I think the main thing that turns people off though, is not his political views at all.  It's the manner he comes across.  I don't know if it's intentional, but in the vast majority of his posts, he comes across as very arrogant and condescending, almost at times talking down to us, as if we Scots are lesser people than him.  While it is wrong to attack people's personal lives, maybe if he refrained from bringing his personal life into everything, such "attacks" would never have started in the first place

I don't mind opinions at all

I don't like personal attacks

cracks about my education

cracks like his rambling

If you don't like my opinions fine

But don't justify your opinion by personal abuse of the person you disagree with

Keep to the facts and keep my personality out of it and all will be fine

Attacking me calling me a hypocrite , saying I ramble does not justify your case one iota.

It just sums up the attackers perfectly

Keep to the facts, If you think there is a future for Nationalism say so, but don't deny my right to say " its dead in the water*, because along with 2,000,000 others I think it is.

Get my point?. Now post away with dignity.

 

 

 

and 1.6 million people disagree and think the union is on the way out!

[bobbyjag]

The idea that intimidation, bullying or vitriolic tendencies somehow characterises people who voted for independence will only ever be ridiculous. If you are to reduce the argument to such a base perceptive angle then you could only (with credibility) generalise that the 'large, tattooed ,skinhead' element was in fact entrenched within the No support during and after the referendum. This was of course the side which had the congenial political company of such lovely factions as ; The BNP, Britain First, The Orange Order etc etc. From the homophobic or sectarian banners on display at the Order's march through Edinburgh to the Nazi salutes visible in George Square before the unionists 'had their fun', the Union was fully supported by bigoted thuggery. This is not to say that the Yes side would not have had its share of less than savoury individuals, but they were grossly outnumbered by an assortment who are the very worst of political manifestations on these isles. As for the supercilious tone towards the poor of this land, some people should be ashamed of themselves as they sit in their 'I'm alright jack seat' and cast judgement. One thing that is for certain following this referendum is that the very people you may treat with such disdain are now politically awake, and (backed by multiple polls) they most certainly wont be voting Labour, Tory or Lib Dem next year!!   

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQIN7UAfLBo

[Charles Bannerman]

 

 

and 1.6 million people disagree and think the union is on the way out!

 

What is it about the expression "Y-O-U   L-O-S-T" that you find difficult to understand about that referendum?

 

By 400,000 votes, by 10.6% of the votes cast, by a ratio of 5:4 - whichever way you want to look at it - despite holding the referendum under your terms....you lost. If you didn't want to lose you should never have imposed the referendum and its accompanying tedium upon us in the first place.

It's strange how Nationalist thinking (excuse the oxymoron) tends to repeat itself. Back in the 1979 General Election the SNP expected a major breakthrough in seats and vote which bombed spectacularly. They just couldn't understand that the Scottish people had said NO to them and reverted to type by coming up with one conspiracy theory after another. It's responses like that over the last many years which made me completely unsurprised at a great deal of what I saw from the Yes side during the recent referendum and its aftermath.

[Charles Bannerman]

 

 

PS - I take it that it's still OK to criticise Salmond?

 

That's a bit like asking on a matchday thread if it's OK to criticise the ref. Part and parcel!

 

But not even the ref is allowed to dictate the rules of the game, when it kicks off and which players are eligible for it

 

I now see he has come seriously unstuck with Baseless Assertion #2374 - "The NHS (which is devolved to Scotland) is in danger of privatisation with a NO vote."

It now emerges that the NHS is in far more danger from actually being devolved since it now has now been revealed that over the period 2009-16 NHS spending in England will have increased by 4.4% while in Scotland it will have decreased by 1.2%.

If Alex and chums feel they are not up to running the NHS in a competent manner, maybe they should stand aside in favour of other people who can do a much better job.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Charles Bannerman

[Kingsmills]

 

 

I give up sounds like bad manners and sarcasm will be winners on this forum

Take consolation from the fact that if they had anything worth saying, they would say it.  A lack of respect for other posters is the refuge of those who don't like what you're saying but can't argue against it. 

 

 

his argument was that he was uneducated and worked in a cotton mill...

 

 

I had to leave school when I was 15 because my single mother fell mentally ill and I had to look after her plus when I was at school I was pretty much left to rot hence my spelling / grammer.

 

 

 

Or, in combination, your spelling of 'grammer' 

[Renegade]

I don't mind opinions at all

I don't like personal attacks

cracks about my education

cracks like his rambling

If you don't like my opinions fine

But don't justify your opinion by personal abuse of the person you disagree with

Keep to the facts and keep my personality out of it and all will be fine

Attacking me calling me a hypocrite , saying I ramble does not justify your case one iota.

It just sums up the attackers perfectly

Keep to the facts, If you think there is a future for Nationalism say so, but don't deny my right to say " its dead in the water*, because along with 2,000,000 others I think it is.

Get my point?. Now post away with dignity.

 

 

Where did I call you a hypocrite?  

 

Also, as I said earlier in the thread, maybe if you reviewed your own posting style and attitude towards others these "attacks" wouldn't arise.  Don't forget, you're somebody who called Scots "bigots" for not supporting England a wee while ago.  Such antagonistic statements isn't exactly going to make you Mr Popular, is it?  You get awfully upset about "personal" attacks, yet you're quite happy to dismiss other people's lives as being "humdrum" as if yours is so superior.  Sounds to me like the pot's calling the kettle black.

 

Let's have a look at your "Dead in the Water" statement though.  You claim the SNP have no leader.  This is utter rubbish and you know it.  They have a leader - Alex Salmond.  You claim they have no money.  Their massive amount of new fee paying members, on top of those they already had suggests that they do have money....and lots of it.  Finally you claim they have "no future".  This is party which opinion polls suggest are going to make big gains in the next general election, as well as being predicted to win the Scottish Parliament election next time as well.  Remember as well, a year ago, Yes was polling in some places around 25%.  In the end it got 45%, a surge in support if there ever was one.  Just because 2,000,000 voted No this time, doesn't mean it's over forever, nor does it mean that people who voted No this time would do so again next time.  Yes was beaten this time around, but "dead in the water"?  Don't talk rubbish!

Edited October 3, 2014 by Renegade

[dougiedanger]

 

 

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/10/03/strong-roots/

 

By Mike Small

 

Looking back at our posters now has a different feel. In new circumstances they take on new perspective. Some are just unbearably sad now, others come into their own. The referendum was supposed to settle things once and for all. The ‘settled will’ is a handy off-the-peg political cliché. Nationalist foxes are notoriously riddled with bullets but there’s seems little for the victorious No contingent to celebrate as the Yes movement begins to morph into something far stronger. Strangely the No’s seem mired in existential uncertainty. The victors seem to visibly diminish while the vanquished are emboldened. 

 

What the hell’s going on?

 

Key factors mean that defeat has galvanised not crushed the independence movement. 
 

The credibility of Scottish Labour, after it’s Death-Pact-of-Unity with the Tories in Better Together is in tatters, helped none by Miliband’s conference amnesia. While pundits cooed over Gordon Brown’s Dunkirk spirit, his bravery, acumen and speechifying have led to nothing. His lauded Vow, once branded as ‘Devo Max’ ‘Home Rule’ and ‘as close to Federalism as you’ll get’ now seems to be worthy only of a petition. Land campaigner Andy Wightman characterised it as: “I’ve set up a petition 2 ask folk 2 ask me 2 do what I said I’d do when I asked them 2 vote for thing I’d do if they voted (or something)”. 
 

The SNP’s MP Pete Wishart has written to the Speaker pointing out that the debate secured by Brown for the 16th October is an end of day adjournment debate, which will last (at most) half an hour, is un-amendable and cannot be voted on or even discussed.

 

This is Brown’s Tuition Fees moment.
 

As Scottish Labour faces disarray and a potential rout if a talked-about cross-party independence electoral pact is forthcoming, other parties are in revival.

 

The SNP, which was supposed to split asunder in defeat has been re-born with over 75,000 members, dwarfing it’s nearest rival Labour’s supposed 13,000. Neither Hampden nor Murrayfield could hold them. The Scottish Green Party, almost more remarkably, has seen it’s membership more than quadruple with an increase now totalling almost 6,000 members and the SSP’s membership has increased from 1,000 to almost 4,000.

 

It’s not just the political parties that are resurgent.

 

Almost all of the alternative media outlets are announcing major expansion plans, radical ‘think and do’ tank Commonweal have ambitious development plans, discussion is under way about the potential for a Podemos-style party of the left, and RIC have had to consider using both Indy Cities (Glasgow and Dundee) for a simultaneous double-conference to cope with the demand as there’s no venue big enough to hold them. Women for Independence are meeting tomorrow in Perth a 1000 strong sell-out.
 

What’s motivating everyone?      

 

A sort of gallus adrenalin fuels much of the Yes movement, still reeling from a historic and tragic loss, many crashing from dizzy idealism to the prosaic brutality of The Smith Commission. No voters muttering ‘reconciliation’ and repeating the mantra ‘we all share the same values really’ are appearing out of the darkness, their hair matted with the guano of chickens coming home to roost.

 

Other motivating factors include the reality of George Osborne’s gleefully announced austerity package, promising the poorest 10 million households they would face real-world cuts and his sinister pronouncement that you don’t ‘set the poor free by giving them more money’. 

 

Bojo’s ‘permission to purr’ evoked a permission to puke response.

 

But whilst the Yes movement may seem oddly ascendant (a You Gov poll by John Curtice claiming the SNP could return 26 MPs at the General Election next year), the question remains: to do what? Polling at 49% of the vote suggests that the SNP are far more likely to hold the balance of power than UKIP after the general election.  

 

But can the wider Yes movement beyond the SNP realign, recompose itself and develop a strategy to take forward into the General Election and beyond? 

 

Yes if independence campaigners can move beyond the bitter disappointment of what they perceive as having our countries future thrown away by selfishness, fear and stupidity, and instead reach out to the very people they feel culpable for that folly.

 

Yes if Nicola Sturgeon can harness the amazing new energy within the SNP.

 

Yes is the Scottish left can recapture the drive and imagination from within such disappointment and steer the parties new and old to an agenda for real change. 

 

This thrawn celtic stoicism gives a strange kind of hope. Hope too from the reality that 45%+ of people don’t want to be part of Britain, and of the remainder many were driven to vote No by a campaign of fear and intimidation. That’s an unsustainable way to govern a country.

[skifreak]

What is it about the expression "Y-O-U   L-O-S-T" that you find difficult to understand about that referendum?

 

We are seven months away from potentially the most unpredictable of UK general elections, but one in which there is at least the possibility of the SNP coming out as the third biggest party in the House of Commons. Even if that doesn't happen if a fair number of both Labour and Lib Dem Scottish seats are lost to the SNP, then it is unlikely the Lib Dems will dominate the make up of the 'smaller' parties in the Commons next May as they did in 2010. 

 

A 2 party lib-lab or con-lab coalition would unlikely reach the 326 seats needed for a majority. So the SNP could end up holding the balance of power!  EVEL will be unacceptable unless Scotland has full fiscal autonomy, otherwise English votes would continue to set Scottish budgets through Barnett Consequentials  with no democratic accountability either at Holyrood or Westminster. 

 

How do you see the constitutional conundrums being resolved? I haven't seen anything in my adult life that suggests to me the UK state is capable of the radical reform required at the centre to deliver the change required to solve these issues in a manor that could give rise to anything approaching a stable constitutional settlement. 

Edited October 3, 2014 by skifreak

[Alex MacLeod]

This thread started out as one of debate but has since deteriorated into one of abuse and very infantile comments among a handful of people who cant come to terms with the reforendum outcome are the likely future of UK. the gerenal consensus of the moderators is to close it. Therefore this thread is now closed.