Lost money from Rangers game

[Joe DiMaggio]

Was in the telegraph today mentioning the clubs that Rangers owe money to for tickets, transfer fees etc.

It also mentioned that ICT have already supplied Rangers with tickets for the game this month meaning we will be screwed in actually getting the money from Rangers, given that they owe other clubs money for tickets from games already played.

Why did we do this? Other clubs have made Rangers and Hearts pay the money up front for tickets or have sold the away tickets themselves. We just said no bother and stuck them in the post??

If they have the same amount as Celtic that is about 3,500 for south, part of main and west stands. Tickets range from £30 to £20 for away fans for this game meaning that we will have lost out on near £100,000!

Is there anything that can be done? Cancel tickets and re sell to away fans directly new tickets of a different colour? Seems a bit impractical. Our own fault it looks like for being naive.

[Scotty]

If the game has yet to take place, and Rangers (or the administrators) cannot give assurances that the receipts for sales for this future fixture will be paid for then I say we should declare all tickets for the south stand void, reprint them on bright green paper (perhaps with white stripes) and sell them ourselves (or via the Portland Club) .... anyone turning up with original tickets gets turned away. simple. (in theory at least)

the ticket money is not Rangers' money, it is ICT money which I think Rangers take a commission from for selling them, and which Rangers (and Celtic) requested to sell so they could control who got them amongst their support. If they are not going to pay for them, then the tickets are as good as frauds or forgeries and should be treated as such ....

[CaleyD]

Two things....

First off, the Administrators won't give two hoots if the money is "ours", it sits with Rangers, is a Rangers Asset and will be treated the same as all other Rangers Assets. Any money due would simply be chalked up as another debt. Tickets were given to Rangers in good faith, Rangers fans have bought them in good faith and any dispute is between Rangers and Us and not Ticket Holders and Us. I very much doubt we would have any legal recourse which allowed us to cancel the tickets (as much as we might like too).

Think about it another way. Arnold Clark get 100 cars from Ford on credit. I buy one of those cars and Arnold Clark go bust without paying Ford....Ford can't come and repossess my car.

Secondly, the SPL guarantees the ticket money in circumstances such as this so our worry is not if we will get the money, it is when as I don't imagine the SPL will just write us a cheque tomorrow.

[old caley girl]

Its good that the spl covers the ticket money of those games already held eg Dundee United and Dunfermline but our case is surely different. Why should the spl cough up a huge amount of money for a game that has not been held. I get the car analogy but think that Scottys solution is much fairer especially as a small club like ours needs every penny it can get and probably needs it sooner rather than later. Then the gers fans can claim their ticket money back from the spl if they have to.

It wont happen though and as Caley D says the club will get its money eventually and will just have to manage till then.

[CaleyD]

I agree that it's not right and I imagine that ICT will be in touch with Rangers to see what the deal is. It's entirely feasible that the administrators could sign off on the payment of that money, especially as they will need all the friends they can get in the SPL when it comes to them either moving out of administration and/or going through liquidation and applying to rejoin the SPL.

There's little point in us getting worked up, upset at or butting heads with the Rangers fans. What's more, could you imagine the carnage of 2000+ Rangers fans turning up a week on Sunday demanding entry and being refused or told that they need to purchase another ticket? Not a pretty thought and one that should be avoided if at all possible.

[old caley girl]

I know you're right Don but I wonder if we would be welcomed to Ibrox if the circumstances were reversed?

[CaleyD]

I like to think our fans and club are made of better stuff than that and we can leave the pointless and petty stupidity side of things to others.....well, for the most part at least

[+DoofersDad]

I take it that Rangers would be due a share of the overall gate receipts for the match? Presumably we would withhold that to partly offset their debts to us.

[old caley girl]

Dont think so DD as its a league game.

[Govan Jaggie]

Rangers "take" 10%.

[old caley girl]

Is that the levy for selling the tickets?

[ICT_Away]

There is an assumption that the game will go ahead, not sure they can afford the bus to get up here :)

[Scarlet Pimple]

How many times have you seen business entities holding back on monetary items or goods in similar circumstances whether it is against the law or not.

If the law in these kinds of matters is unfair then why not just decisively act....possession is 9/10ths of the law after all and ICT could open the gates to any other fans that may want to come in; cash over the turnstile gate and first come ftrst served.

It would be very difficult to sue ICT successfully over such a decision because they are guiltless in all this and could plead poverty and dire straits. All of which being the the mother of invention, like.

[PaderbornCaley]

I take it that Rangers would be due a share of the overall gate receipts for the match? Presumably we would withhold that to partly offset their debts to us.

I'd imagine, it's more the case of them sending us the 90%? They take all the ticket sales and send us the monies?

[ictbob]

If rangers fail to pay us im sure the spl will hold the money back from any prize money they are due at the end of the season.seem to remember something like this when Gretna went bust.

[donjo29]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17053419

Dunfermline have acceptted that they are not getting there money and have appealed to the fans to come out in force to make up for it. Might be worth attempting to do the same?

[GMD11UK]

Slash the ticket price as it's on TV aswell isn't it?

if they're getting into our ground essentially "free" then why should home fans have to suffer the insult of paying full price knowing the south stand (and probably the uncovered bit in the main stand near it) is being inhabited by Trotters Independent Traders who have foolishly paid money to Del Boy who isn't going to give us our fair share!

[bauhaus]

we wont get our 90% of Rangers administrators, but we will get the x%, eventually, which will a fraction of what is owed. However I wonder if Rangers have sold all the tickets so far. They may have 1000 left, which we should demand back the unsold tickets, and al least get part of the income, even if its only another 200.

Wonder how LOYAL those fans are going to be to Rangers over the next few months, with nae chance of any silverware. Having said that, if they were to somehow go on a run, and Celtic imploded, would that then be their greatest achievement

[old caley girl]

STV on twitter reporting that ICT has spoken to the administrators and expect to receive a payment of around £50,000. Dont know if this applies to the other clubs they owe money to. I wonder if we are different to them as the game has not already been played?

[+Fraz]

If we did refuse entry to the away fans due to non-payment the dispute would surely be between the Rangers fans and Rangers FC in addition to ICTFC and Rangers FC. Not between the Rangers fans and ICTFC. To look at it another way with the car analogy- if I bought a Ford car from Arnold Clark and before it was delivered to me (and before Arnold Clark had paid Ford for it) and they went bust my dispute would be with Arnold Clark not Ford as they would simply say 'why should we give it to you as far as we are concerned it's not paid for'. Essentially the Rangers fans would be getting a service that isn't paid for.

Bit of a moot point if the SPL covers the costs anyway mind!

[+Tree]

I would have to look into the specific details behind the administration, however in most circumstances 'football' creditors are viewed as Secured Creditors under the terms of the Administration procedure and it may be that the gate money is in effect at the head of the que for payment by the club (i.e. has to be paid in full in advance of any reduced payments under CVAs, etc).

This may be academic in the sense that the Rangers trading company gets subsequently liquidated and available monies for any creditors may be limited. In this case Rangers will need re-electred to the SPL and I'm sure part of this process will be to settle outstanding amounts due to other SPL football clubs.

[CaleyD]

If we did refuse entry to the away fans due to non-payment the dispute would surely be between the Rangers fans and Rangers FC in addition to ICTFC and Rangers FC. Not between the Rangers fans and ICTFC. To look at it another way with the car analogy- if I bought a Ford car from Arnold Clark and before it was delivered to me (and before Arnold Clark had paid Ford for it) and they went bust my dispute would be with Arnold Clark not Ford as they would simply say 'why should we give it to you as far as we are concerned it's not paid for'. Essentially the Rangers fans would be getting a service that isn't paid for.

Bit of a moot point if the SPL covers the costs anyway mind!

Proof of purchase is all you would need to get your car if it had been paid for and not yet delivered.

[+Fraz]

If we did refuse entry to the away fans due to non-payment the dispute would surely be between the Rangers fans and Rangers FC in addition to ICTFC and Rangers FC. Not between the Rangers fans and ICTFC. To look at it another way with the car analogy- if I bought a Ford car from Arnold Clark and before it was delivered to me (and before Arnold Clark had paid Ford for it) and they went bust my dispute would be with Arnold Clark not Ford as they would simply say 'why should we give it to you as far as we are concerned it's not paid for'. Essentially the Rangers fans would be getting a service that isn't paid for.

Bit of a moot point if the SPL covers the costs anyway mind!

Proof of purchase is all you would need to get your car if it had been paid for and not yet delivered.

I don't believe that it would be that simple, when MFI went under thousands of people were left out of pocket by hundreds if not thousands and not re-imbursed unless they had used a credit card. In fact recently i bought my wife a voucher for a company that is now defunct, she never got that chance to use it and apparently that's essentialy tough and I have the voucher and reciept.

[Tug]

lifted from the bbc but essentially boils down to the last paragraphs

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17063322

kenny cameron been given assurances by the spl and the administrators more importantly to assure them that the money from the game will be paid within the agreed timescales

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Dear Kenny,

A pound is in the post.

Yours sincerely,

Craig Shyte