Will Next Season Be Butcher's Last?

[Jay_7]

I can answer that...yes.

We can agree to disagree then. The club can announce over 3000 all they want, it's sadly not the case.

[AJS]

I can answer that...yes.

We can agree to disagree then. The club can announce over 3000 all they want, it's sadly not the case.

Not really given that i worked the Turnstile gates for the last year and part of my job is counting what i take in

[Jay_7]

Not really given that i worked the Turnstile gates for the last year and part of my job is counting what i take in

Perhaps I'm missing some vital point here, but surely if you're counting only what you take in, then that won't give a total attendance?

[dougal]

I can answer that...yes.

We can agree to disagree then. The club can announce over 3000 all they want, it's sadly not the case.

Not really given that i worked the Turnstile gates for the last year and part of my job is counting what i take in

So you're the guy to blame regarding the inflated attendances which has been quite evident this season

You wouldn't be the same guy that's done the counting in Dingwall for many years too?

Dougal

[AJS]

I can answer that...yes.

We can agree to disagree then. The club can announce over 3000 all they want, it's sadly not the case.

Not really given that i worked the Turnstile gates for the last year and part of my job is counting what i take in

So you're the guy to blame regarding the inflated attendances which has been quite evident this season

You wouldn't be the same guy that's done the counting in Dingwall for many years too?

Dougal

Aw shucks you got me!

[lukemackay]

got to love how everything things a conspiracy on here

cant take someones word for anything. the stadium tends to look about half filled to me which would mean there are 3400ish people.

[Alex MacLeod]

dougal is very easy to disagree with, given that it's pretty clear through his posts that he doesn't support ICT.

Yawwwn

Let's be honest here and this is not exclusively your problem you and the rest of the happy clappers are fantasists not realists like myself

I've been called a County fan, an Orc fan etc etc on numerous occasions but it's like water of a ducks back I am ICT although seriously disgruntled and I like many others will be limiting my games next season as the football served up is Pish

ICT are presently not going in the right direction only a bampot would argue otherwise

Dougal

Dougal, you make some valid points but then you spoil them. The fantasist thinks ICT have a god given right to be in the top half of the league with a team of stars. The realist thinks we are doing very well, with our financial handicap, to still be in the league. ICT, like St Mirren, Aberdeen, Killie, Hibs, St Johnstone etc will always be fighting to stay up first and foremost. The rest will be a bonus. Thats the view of a realist.

[ICTodd]

dougal is very easy to disagree with, given that it's pretty clear through his posts that he doesn't support ICT.

Yawwwn

Let's be honest here and this is not exclusively your problem you and the rest of the happy clappers are fantasists not realists like myself

I've been called a County fan, an Orc fan etc etc on numerous occasions but it's like water of a ducks back I am ICT although seriously disgruntled and I like many others will be limiting my games next season as the football served up is Pish

ICT are presently not going in the right direction only a bampot would argue otherwise

Dougal

Dougal, you make some valid points but then you spoil them. The fantasist thinks ICT have a god given right to be in the top half of the league with a team of stars. The realist thinks we are doing very well, with our financial handicap, to still be in the league. ICT, like St Mirren, Aberdeen, Killie, Hibs, St Johnstone etc will always be fighting to stay up first and foremost. The rest will be a bonus. Thats the view of a realist.

Agreed, I just don't think we are fighting this season and we're just lucky there's worse than us, that's the sad thing

[SMEE]

dougal is very easy to disagree with, given that it's pretty clear through his posts that he doesn't support ICT.

Yawwwn

Let's be honest here and this is not exclusively your problem you and the rest of the happy clappers are fantasists not realists like myself

I've been called a County fan, an Orc fan etc etc on numerous occasions but it's like water of a ducks back I am ICT although seriously disgruntled and I like many others will be limiting my games next season as the football served up is Pish

ICT are presently not going in the right direction only a bampot would argue otherwise

Dougal

Dougal, you make some valid points but then you spoil them. The fantasist thinks ICT have a god given right to be in the top half of the league with a team of stars. The realist thinks we are doing very well, with our financial handicap, to still be in the league. ICT, like St Mirren, Aberdeen, Killie, Hibs, St Johnstone etc will always be fighting to stay up first and foremost. The rest will be a bonus. Thats the view of a realist.

Agreed, I just don't think we are fighting this season and we're just lucky there's worse than us, that's the sad thing

This is my main bugbear, going by what i have witnessed

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

And so say all of us ??

[Scarlet Pimple]

At the beginning of the season he cut the team to ribbons , throwing caution and common sense to the four winds. Then he filled it up with a lot of young loan players whose hearts could never be expected to lie with the team or Inverness. Also they are very young and inexperienced so what DO you expect other than for them to do their best. And when things don't turn out well easily, to whom do they have toturn to for guidance and support --more youngsters?

A disjointed team with little experience and fragile emotions and maybe they are trying their best . But miskicks, missed goals, lots of injuries and so on and so forth seems to be the order of the day.

Terry Butcher will last another season but where he turns from here is anybody's guess. He must IMHO find some experienced players as a priority. But after that I run out of suggestions.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Terry Butcher will last another season but where he turns from here is anybody's guess

A sports psychologist, a fitness instructor and an assistant with a coaching background.

[Council Juice]

Hmmmm all very interesting points.

We have been fairly guff at times this season. We've went and lost twice to Hibs of all things! Few would have ever seen that coming.

I think there are a few factors to contend with.

1. Injuries and suspensions have undoubtedly taken their toll and we do not have the resources to contend with such. 17 different back 4's this season and I'd imagine most of them were forced upon Butcher.

2. We haven't really replaced some players. Rooney was perfect for our teams system, gone. Munro and Duncan had a wealth of experience in terms of digging in and an abundance of club loyalty. This would naturally rub off on younger players and Tokely is the last around to have this influence. Tade and Shinnie looked to be forming a good partnership until the latters injury. They could replace the goals between them that Rooney left behind. Hogg again, could have been Munros replacement but injury put paid to that. It causes a lot of debate as to whether ability wise Duncan needed replaced. Certainly it was felt by many the team performed better with him in it. But you can't replace passion.

3. We are in terms of club size, supporter base, and financial clout never going to be consistently good season after season. Some seasons we'll be up the crest, others down the trough. In these seasons we'll have good patches (This Christmas or last seasons November) and horrid runs (like of late)

We as a club cannot afford a squad of 25 first team seasoned pros. We also do not have a budget to bring in top quality players. We rely on trial and free transfer. Even when clubs have money to spend there are risks (Torres 50m etc). These risks become tenfold when dealing with the lower end of the scale.

Butcher is trying to attract young hungry talented youths to Inverness. In the long term this could reap huge financial benefits. However for youth you need older heads to guide them. Alas, in the free market most of these older heads will be journeymen, will have had a injury or patchy form history, or just not be great. So we have to take risks on the likes of Owain Tudur Jones. He's undoubtedly talented, yet has injury problems which we took a risk on. It remains a question as to whether we should continue with the risk next season. Time will tell.

As for missing out on Gary Mackay-Stevens, it was well known the boy had talent, however at the time of the trial he was not ready for SPL football. OR had not shown enough to suggest it in his short trial. Subsequently the period at Airdrie, well below the players ability level, gave him the fitness, confidence and impetus to make the step up, albeit with Dundee Utd. We as a club could not afford to take on a player we perhaps could not have utilised straight away. These things happen in football. It was not down to Butchers lack of judgment. Mainly timing did not favour ICT on this occasion.

For the most part I think Butcher makes good signings. OK for every Hayes there is an Eagles. For every Shinnie there is a Stratford, but again I point out that this is the end of the market we're dealing with.

Sometimes he does show but tactical awareness and perhaps his training is not out of this world. When we can afford Jose Mourinho, I'm sure all will be sorted. In the meantime...

I'd say Butchers tenure for the most part has been predominately successful. Dragged us off our feet when 5 points a drift and flagging badly to only be relegated with the highest points total to date (higher than our safe in 10th total at the moment, which is not to say we're doing worse, just then we were desperately unlucky perhaps) He led us straight back up at the 1st attempt. The first to do so since Hibs 10 years earlier. We then came up, defied expectation and finished well in 7th. An over achievement if anything. This season was really mainly about consolidating our SPL status. This has been done, albeit with more of a struggle than we'd have hoped.

It's been a patchy year to say the least and hard to watch certainly, but we've been spoilt before,

so eh why all the doom and gloom? (Please note this isn't really a question for Dougal. He has NOTHING good to say about ICT.)

[IT86]

A great positive, thoughtful post.

[TopSix]

We also do not have a budget to bring in top quality players.

^

this.

[lukemackay]

Hmmmm all very interesting points.

We have been fairly guff at times this season. We've went and lost twice to Hibs of all things! Few would have ever seen that coming.

I think there are a few factors to contend with.

1. Injuries and suspensions have undoubtedly taken their toll and we do not have the resources to contend with such. 17 different back 4's this season and I'd imagine most of them were forced upon Butcher.

2. We haven't really replaced some players. Rooney was perfect for our teams system, gone. Munro and Duncan had a wealth of experience in terms of digging in and an abundance of club loyalty. This would naturally rub off on younger players and Tokely is the last around to have this influence. Tade and Shinnie looked to be forming a good partnership until the latters injury. They could replace the goals between them that Rooney left behind. Hogg again, could have been Munros replacement but injury put paid to that. It causes a lot of debate as to whether ability wise Duncan needed replaced. Certainly it was felt by many the team performed better with him in it. But you can't replace passion.

3. We are in terms of club size, supporter base, and financial clout never going to be consistently good season after season. Some seasons we'll be up the crest, others down the trough. In these seasons we'll have good patches (This Christmas or last seasons November) and horrid runs (like of late)

We as a club cannot afford a squad of 25 first team seasoned pros. We also do not have a budget to bring in top quality players. We rely on trial and free transfer. Even when clubs have money to spend there are risks (Torres 50m etc). These risks become tenfold when dealing with the lower end of the scale.

Butcher is trying to attract young hungry talented youths to Inverness. In the long term this could reap huge financial benefits. However for youth you need older heads to guide them. Alas, in the free market most of these older heads will be journeymen, will have had a injury or patchy form history, or just not be great. So we have to take risks on the likes of Owain Tudur Jones. He's undoubtedly talented, yet has injury problems which we took a risk on. It remains a question as to whether we should continue with the risk next season. Time will tell.

As for missing out on Gary Mackay-Stevens, it was well known the boy had talent, however at the time of the trial he was not ready for SPL football. OR had not shown enough to suggest it in his short trial. Subsequently the period at Airdrie, well below the players ability level, gave him the fitness, confidence and impetus to make the step up, albeit with Dundee Utd. We as a club could not afford to take on a player we perhaps could not have utilised straight away. These things happen in football. It was not down to Butchers lack of judgment. Mainly timing did not favour ICT on this occasion.

For the most part I think Butcher makes good signings. OK for every Hayes there is an Eagles. For every Shinnie there is a Stratford, but again I point out that this is the end of the market we're dealing with.

Sometimes he does show but tactical awareness and perhaps his training is not out of this world. When we can afford Jose Mourinho, I'm sure all will be sorted. In the meantime...

I'd say Butchers tenure for the most part has been predominately successful. Dragged us off our feet when 5 points a drift and flagging badly to only be relegated with the highest points total to date (higher than our safe in 10th total at the moment, which is not to say we're doing worse, just then we were desperately unlucky perhaps) He led us straight back up at the 1st attempt. The first to do so since Hibs 10 years earlier. We then came up, defied expectation and finished well in 7th. An over achievement if anything. This season was really mainly about consolidating our SPL status. This has been done, albeit with more of a struggle than we'd have hoped.

It's been a patchy year to say the least and hard to watch certainly, but we've been spoilt before,

so eh why all the doom and gloom? (Please note this isn't really a question for Dougal. He has NOTHING good to say about ICT.)

Here here!

[Renegade]

Here's a thought to ponder - as things stand, this is the final season Butcher and Malpas are contracted for. I don't know what Butcher is on, but I have heard figures of about £100,000 a year floating around*. One would presume that Butcher is the highest paid manager this club has ever had and the aforementioned wage is probably somewhere in that region (and I would've thought Malpas would be on a decent wage as well). With the financial constraints that now exist around the club, could it be possible that this season is Butcher's last due to the fact that the club cannot afford to keep him?

* - According to Paterson's book, he was on £72,000 ten years ago, while the club was in Division One. Shearer was on about a grand a week as well supposedly, which would make me guess that the figure for Butcher is probably about right or close enough.

[gordieict]

I don't know what salary Butcher is on but I believe he is also doing the Director of Football job now instead of Bennett who was getting paid a fairly good salary for it until the club went down to the 1st Division...I still believe that Butcher will be one of the poorer paid managers in the SPL and who ever we got in would be looking for a comparable salary. If Butcher does keep us in the SPL this season whatever he is getting paid is money well spent considering the financial constraints the club are under.

I would hope that when Butcher is due a new contract that is decided by what happens on the pitch rather than what he is getting paid.

[lukemackay]

Clubs decision, I'd hope that if worst came to worst butcher would take a wage cut, but who knows. That's not for me to ponder and it's up to the board, il trust whatever move they make regarding management, contracts and budgets because whatever they do is in the clubs best interest.

[CaleyD]

The eve of the new season coming off the back of a summer of total crap and everyone is in fairly buoyant/positive mood....yet all some want to do is find a way to try and undermine the managers position before a ball is even kicked!!!

[starchief]

Sounds a lot of money but it's not that much in football terms (or in other industries when you reach a certain point). I would think only Barry Smith would be on significantly less.

My memory is of the 'sacrifice' Bobby Robson made when he went to Newcastle for only £30,000. Then you realise it's £30,000 a week.

[Renegade]

yet all some want to do is find a way to try and undermine the managers position before a ball is even kicked!!!

Not at all. We all know the financial constraints happening within the Scottish game at this time, so much so that Hearts, fresh from winning a Scottish Cup, were unable to retain their manager and star player. I never bumped this thread in attempt to undermine the manager's position, rather providing an opinion/scenario on what is after all, what the thread is all about, and a scenario I don't believe is impossible come the end of the season.

My real fear though, is that come May 2013 (should Butcher still be here), the board are unable to agree terms, Butcher goes with Malpas promoted to manager. And that's a scarey thought!

[lukemackay]

yet all some want to do is find a way to try and undermine the managers position before a ball is even kicked!!!

Not at all. We all know the financial constraints happening within the Scottish game at this time, so much so that Hearts, fresh from winning a Scottish Cup, were unable to retain their manager and star player. I never bumped this thread in attempt to undermine the manager's position, rather providing an opinion/scenario on what is after all, what the thread is all about, and a scenario I don't believe is impossible come the end of the season.

My real fear though, is that come May 2013 (should Butcher still be here), the board are unable to agree terms, Butcher goes with Malpas promoted to manager. And that's a scarey thought!

You really are overthinking this.

Butchers here for the next year at least I see no reason why he'd want to leave hes earned plenty of dosh in his career in sure David Murray gave a tasty little sum in his time at ibrox and I really don't think Terry's in it for the money, he's enjoying life here unless, he has to take a wage cut that means he can't afford his red vino and his chippy twice a month I don't see it. Tels here, he wants to achieve top 6 with us and that's what he's here to do, let's talk about Terry's future when he's achieved his goals and clubs are after him.

Edited August 4, 2012 by lukemackay

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Can I suggest that this thread is closed. It is old hat, history and unhelpful. We are in season 2012-2013 and the slate has been wiped. Only performances and managerial influence should be judged from henceforth.

[Alex MacLeod]

Final point to renegade. This is not Butcher and Malpas last season. They are contracted till summer 2014. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/15204054