DUFC game off: CONFIRMED

[hislopsoffsideagain]

I'm massively hacked off over this decision - "on safety grounds"

I don't see the police stopping the Eastgate Centre opening because of the hazards of travelling there.

Health and safety my @rse.

[Alex MacLeod]

No point of having under soil heating...can we have our money back please SPL

Yes indeed, you have put your finger on a Catch 22 situation here which began to emerge last winter.

When USH is used to make a pitch playable the game is often postponed anyway under circumstances imposed by forces outwith the club which was obliged to instal it.

There's something of an irony here that clubs have been using the USH which "SPL Rules" insist they have, manage to get their pitches playable... then the SPL imposes a blanket ban on all its games irrespective of local circumstances.

It wll be interesting to see if any SFL games go ahead... possibly in certain areas of Scotland without the assistance of USH?

The purpose of USH was more to do with the number of games being called off because of frozen pitches and not because of snow. Having said that is it a criteria of any other top leagues in europe or is it an SPL thing?

Charles, the way things are looking at the moment I'd be very surprised if any SFL games, other than those in the south west of the country, were to go ahead.

[Scotty]

Personally i think that the rule should be "adequate pitch protection" leaving clubs to decide if USH, pitch blankets, hot air domes or just leaving it to nature are appropriate for them ..... then, if games are called off because of the pitch clubs could be dealt with if their games were called off when other comparable games were going ahead.

[Bridge_Ender]

Seems the authorities can't win... Games on, moans about fan safety. Games off, moans about how it's not that bad...

It might be mollycoddling or whatever but it isn't a clever idea to make unnecessary journeys in this weather and the rescue services will be stretched enough right now without having to rush off to road incidents cos an additional 50,000+ people are on the roads for football. Correct decision for me.

As a direct result, should this not re-open the winter shut down debate? Or even summer football?

[Charles Bannerman]

The purpose of USH was more to do with the number of games being called off because of frozen pitches and not because of snow. Having said that is it a criteria of any other top leagues in europe or is it an SPL thing?

Charles, the way things are looking at the moment I'd be very surprised if any SFL games, other than those in the south west of the country, were to go ahead.

The SOLE purpose of USH is to do with games being called off because of frozen pitches.

The additional question is whether or not the frost is accompanied by snow, which it has been on a large number of occasions in Inverness. When there is snow, it doesn't matter how effective the USH is, recent trends are for games to have been pulled on the say so of bodies other than clubs.

As for the SFL games, yes, I would agree that the best chance is in the west. Ironically a lady at Glencoe Chairlift today told me that they probably won't open at the weekend because they don't expect to have quite enough snow.

In general terms I'm not sure where I stand on the question of games being called off by the Police or the Elfin Safety Industry - that's in general terms as opposed to blanket call offs three days in advance of kick off.

On the one hand I can accept that travelling can be considered just to be too dangerous. But on the other hand the argument which I have seen elsewhere that there would be no chance of the Eastgate Centre being closed on Police say so in the event of bad road conditions is also very persuasive.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Charles Bannerman

[MabawswaRichie]

I'm massively hacked off over this decision - "on safety grounds"

I don't see the police stopping the Eastgate Centre opening because of the hazards of travelling there.

Health and safety my @rse.

I think it's more do with the fact that it's debatable whether Dundee Utd (players and fans) could have physically got to Inverness. The east of Scotland appears to be cut off from the rest of the planet.

[Alex MacLeod]

Yes Charles, Glencoe has an open mountain and no snow whereas Glen Shee has snow and all roads are closed. We can please all of the people some of the time but we'll never please some of the people all of the time

[The Mantis]

Mantis is that Mayburn in Loanhead, looks like my uncles' street. All those Wimpey houses look the same mind you.

No but you're in the right county, and same vintage of house, 1968. I was growing up when they built Mayburn, getting chased by the night watchie and so on

Edited December 1, 2010 by TheMantis

[bauhaus]

Anyone know what kind of level of frost the USH can deal with. My job is often influenced by the weather, so i need to be aware in the Winter. Its likely to be -8c saturday noon, with as low as -15c overnight.

Thats not the end of it though, as it will get worse in December, possibly not getting above freezing for the next 4 weeks.

Sorry to be so doom and gloom, but i can see a few weekends getting called off, giving the SFA time to sort out the refs and Celtic.

[RiG]

Think of the Aberdeen fans that had to travel to Kilmarnock .

Apparently a mere 230 made the trip but fair play to them.

I'm a little surprised at this blanket call off as well. From a selfish point of view I've just spent ?30 on train tickets that I don't believe are refundable!

The conditions on the A90 beggar belief to be honest. I can fully appreciate the fans safety issue but as Caley D says this doesn't seem to have been an issue last weekend for whatever reason.

[PullMyFinger]

Seems the authorities can't win... Games on, moans about fan safety. Games off, moans about how it's not that bad...

It might be mollycoddling or whatever but it isn't a clever idea to make unnecessary journeys in this weather and the rescue services will be stretched enough right now without having to rush off to road incidents cos an additional 50,000+ people are on the roads for football. Correct decision for me.

As a direct result, should this not re-open the winter shut down debate? Or even summer football?

The SPL have maybe saved a few lives by making this decision, who knows? By making it on Wednesday it gave folk a chance to change their plans but unfortunately some will have paid for travel tickets and accomodation already.

A winter shutdown traditionally had set dates and would not have prevented this weekends fixtures being off. Summer football would possibly see a drop in season ticket sales as that's when we head off to get some sunshine.

But on the other hand the argument which I have seen elsewhere that there would be no chance of the Eastgate Centre being closed on Police say so in the event of bad road conditions is also very persuasive.

Is that not the reatail park you're thinking of ?

Anyone know what kind of level of frost the USH can deal with. My job is often influenced by the weather, so i need to be aware in the Winter. Its likely to be -8c saturday noon, with as low as -15c overnight.

Thats not the end of it though, as it will get worse in December, possibly not getting above freezing for the next 4 weeks.

Sorry to be so doom and gloom, but i can see a few weekends getting called off, giving the SFA time to sort out the refs and Celtic.

The USH can cope well when there's a blanket of snow to protect it from the frost, when that's gone it is very expensive to run and would struggle at exceptional temperatures especially if there's a chill factor to consider.

[Georgeios]

I'm a bit happy that they have said this as i now know the game is off so i have no reason to try and get to inverness for the game... It saves me putting the Tank at risk.

[Alex MacLeod]

I'm a bit happy that they have said this as i now know the game is off so i have no reason to try and get to inverness for the game... It saves me putting the Tank at risk.

George, any chance you could put a blade on the front of that tank and come free my car.

[Georgeios]

Oh sorry, when i say tank, i mean hot water tank.... I'd need to wash for the football...

[CaleyD]

Anyone know what kind of level of frost the USH can deal with. My job is often influenced by the weather, so i need to be aware in the Winter. Its likely to be -8c saturday noon, with as low as -15c overnight.

Thats not the end of it though, as it will get worse in December, possibly not getting above freezing for the next 4 weeks.

Sorry to be so doom and gloom, but i can see a few weekends getting called off, giving the SFA time to sort out the refs and Celtic.

USH is effected by ground temperature and the forecasts we generally read provide the air temperature and it's very hard to use one to determine what the other will be.

Different USH systems also have different ranges of effectiveness, but I have a figure of -6 in my head for our system for some reason (perhaps read or heard it somewhere before).

Despite temperatures being almost constantly below zero, our pitch was not frozen. This was partly due to the snow acting as a thermal blanket and the USH being on at a low level to enhance the benefits of that frost guard. Even pulling up the forecast showing temperatures of -11 for Friday didn't phase our groundkeeper or cause him any concern about our ability to get the game on.

It's also worth noting that USH is designed to protect against frost and not dispose of it once it has already set in. SPL rules/guidelines state that USH MUST be turned on 72 hours prior to a game in wintry conditions, but no allowance is made for the fact that once frost has set in and temperatures remain below freezing then chances of it getting a pitch defrosted is slim....clubs are effectively being asked to burn money for no reason.

What's more...cheaper to run, easier to install, less damaging pitch protection systems which clubs could have running almost constantly during weather like this are not considered "adequate pitch protection" by the SPL.

ICT will have burned thousands of pounds worth of oil this week and are now faced with a decision as to whether or not they now turn off the USH and allow the frost to set in before having to make a decision at the weekend on whether they should risk doing what they did this time around to ensure the pitch will be ready, or go by the letter of the SPL Rules/Guidelines and leave it till mid week before doing anything and face an almighty battle to get the pitch defrosted...with no guarantee it will work and the risk of a last minute call off for a frozen pitch...that's if the SPL don't postpone fixtures again early on.

Add the potential for mid week games to be thrown into the mix, games that will be played in the evening when temperatures could be even colder, and when volunteers to clear the pitch are not so readily available as people are working etc etc and the whole thing turns into an even bigger farce.

"Experts" are predicting a hard winter with little let up and the SPL have just set a low bar for calling on postponements.

Travel conditions are being touted around as the reason (although I've seen no firm confirmation of that) for the early call off. Yet, ironically, the only game not to be called off so far is the Alloa v Peterhead match, a match which will require people to travel right through the middle of the worst of the conditions!!!

[Alex MacLeod]

I cannot for the life of me understand why that one match has not yet been decided on.

[+Fraz]

Not sure why the SPL could not wait until around Friday morning to make a decision on a game by game basis and after contacting the clubs/police to find out what local conditions are like, thus avoiding travel for the fans if indeed it is dangerous. The forcasts for Saturday would also be more accurate.

We got a delivery today from Aberdeen although it was a little late.

[Scotty]

I think its a damned if you do, damned if you dont situation...

The SPL called it off on Tuesday ...4 days before the game.

As noted by some in this thread, that might have allowed some folk to cancel travel plans and/or save on money spent on bus/rail/plane tickets. For others, they are not so lucky and yes it is frustrating, especially if the roads and the weather end up being OK for the weekend. but its a judgement call and one which will never please everyone. I saw AndyCAM's video of last week's journey and as TB correctly pointed out last night, we seem to be expected to make the journey in all weathers, but others are not so that just compounds it !

For the USH, as CaleyD has stated, clubs are required to have it on for 72 hours before the game if conditions dictate so by definition, if the SPL are going to call the games off, then it is only fair that they give clubs as much notice as possible. In the eyes of the SPL they probably think they have given the clubs an extra day so they wont have to turn the system on and thus prevent them 'burning money'. On the downside, it doesnt take account of clubs who may have it on low as CaleyD mentioned or who may need to leave it on to try and make sure a potential midweek game would go ahead. I remember Tommy moaning to me about the USH and quite literally, he said that the best pitch protection system was nature itself. On dodgy weather weeks he always hopes for a light blanket of snow to cover the pitch as this insulates it from the worst of weather conditions and is easy enoough to clear (assuming it hasnt turned into ice). USH is a joke and should be replaced by "adequate pitch protection" many of which can be cheaper to run and far better for the environment than running a generator non-stop for several days.

[FoolPhysio]

Although we have already paid for it, if there are cheaper yet still as effective methods of keeping the pitch relatively frost-free, we could employ that instead and not turn the USH on at all! Says we need to have it installed. Says the pitch must be playable. I'm working on the assumption that they have written so that implies that one is the obvious consequence of the other, but there could be a wee loop-hole to exploit there. Ends justify the means!

[CaleyD]

Even if the club know that turning the USH on 72 hours in advance will make no difference, failure to comply with the rules/guidelines and "frozen pitch" being the reason a game is off will mean they risk a fine. If they do turn it on and the game is still called off due to "frozen pitch" then that's tough chit on money lost running the system.

Every pitch is different due to soil type, drainage conditions, location etc and having a blanket set of rules for all does not work. Clubs aren't going to intentionally jeopardise games....cashflow is everything to clubs and postponements cause HUGE problems in that regard. Why would clubs risk losing thousands of pounds postponing a weekend fixture and replacing it with a mid week one? Let the people who know best, the groundsmen, decide on what is best for them.

I've just read Blair's comments/justification for the early call-off where he claims "a couple" of clubs are upset by it and I know for a fact that it's more than just a couple of clubs and that travelling clubs are every bit as hacked off as home clubs because nobody wants fixture congestion and they certainly don't want to be travelling mid week.

Everyone, other than Blair, seems to be baffled by the call-off. Clubs were not consulted and only heard about the decision at the same time as we did when the press release went out. Police, from what I understand, had not issued specific advise and/or orders to the SPL about allowing fans to travel and Blair seems to be distancing himself from that by saying "I cannot speak for the police...but".

Conditions are not ideal, but they are not forecast to be any worse than they were last weekend.

The only fans that will have lost on train tickets etc would have been those booking in advance for cheaper fares...the call off did not come soon enough to prevent them having already spent the money, so holding off would not have caused disruption to many more than it already has.

Blair has jumped the gun, IMO, and should have done no more than issued a statement saying that postponements were being considered...at least then people would have been able to make decisions for themselves and a sensible, educated final decision could have been taken after proper consultation with all the relevant clubs, police and authorities.

[tm4tj]

I can't believe people are debating this. A lot of the country is at a standstill, yet here we go moaning about a sporting fixture being called off early to save putting lives at risk and further exacerbating the roles of the already stretched emergency services.

Inverness area is one of the better off areas as far as the severity of the snow.

Forgot to add Mantis..........Why on earth do you have your age written on yer wheelie bin?

Edited December 2, 2010 by tm4tj
Adding kweztion for Mantis

[Georgeios]

As I type this its -14 in Lossie.

[skifreak]

I can't believe people are debating this. A lot of the country is at a standstill, yet here we go moaning about a sporting fixture being called off early to save putting lives at risk and further exacerbating the roles of the already stretched emergency services.

Do delivery trucks need to be delivering 42inch plasma screens to the retail park and do thousands need to be browising electrical stores and fashion stores at the said retail parks. It's putting lives at risk on icy roads with the country covered in snow, I can't believe this is allowed to continue risking further over-stretching the emergency services.

Edited December 4, 2010 by skifreak

[tm4tj]

No they don't but one delivery truck is hardly the same as 5,000 football fans travelling to 6 different locations, and two of them would have more fans going.

There were no trains North of central belt on Thursday/Friday.

As it happened, local conditions were fine, but overall the correct decision was reached.

[CaleyD]

On what basis was it the correct decision? The roads were no worse yesterday than they were last weekend.