Losing faith in Butcher

[PullMyFinger]

I was just trying to point out to BEE123 that comparisons between Butcher's time at Brentford and his time here are not relevant at this point.

yet

[absent friend]

I was just trying to point out to BEE123 that comparisons between Butcher's time at Brentford and his time here are not relevant at this point.

yet

Now how can I put this nicely?

You make a mistake at work and lose your job. You now find a better position and guess what? You are going to make the same mistakes again - so says our Brentford positive thinker, et al.

I would submit that Butcher has made a difference from our last manager, has recruited a number of decent players for the league we are in, even the 'not good enough for the Tinks' player that he signed who appeared to play to an acceptable standard on Sunday.

I accept that posters on here do not credit our current manager with any tactical skill, do not believe he has any budget restraints and feel he should change our players into something they are not.

I believe that he has learnt/can learn as he goes through life and we, at ICT, will be the recipients of this learning.

.

[Johnboy]

I would submit that Butcher has made a difference from our last manager, has recruited a number of decent players for the league we are in, even the 'not good enough for the Tinks' player that he signed who appeared to play to an acceptable standard on Sunday.

I would submit that retaining Ian Vigurs would have made more sense than re-signing Gollabeck.

[absent friend]

I would submit that Butcher has made a difference from our last manager, has recruited a number of decent players for the league we are in, even the 'not good enough for the Tinks' player that he signed who appeared to play to an acceptable standard on Sunday.

I would submit that retaining Ian Vigurs would have made more sense than re-signing Gollabeck.

Not being a part of the ICT management team, I would submit that you have no idea why Vigurs was moved on and this makes your 'sense' - nonsense.

.

[CaleyD]

It really is quite a sad state of affairs when some fans start to almost will failure on the manager. It's as if the desire to be able to say "I told you so" outweighs the desire to see the team/club succeed.

I appreciate that times arise, such as with Brewster, when enough is enough and even with the best will in the world it's impossible to accept what is happening, but surely we are a long, long way from that with Butcher?

I can also, to a certain extent, accept that those who are not willing to give Butcher an inch are of the opinion that he is not good enough for this club, but surely he deserves the time and opportunity to prove himself and that can't be done in half a dozen matches.

There's nobody out there who can honestly say with any conviction that things have not improved since Butcher arrived at the club...so the argument that he must move the team forward to win them over is a mute one as that's already happened/happening.

I read in the passing that someone would deem an improvement on last year as acceptable....how we going to manage that having dropped a league and working on a far tighter budget?

It's almost as if some people are still in denial of the fact that we were relegated and still expect us to operate on the same level as we did in the SPL.

I've yet to see anything which comes close to a convincing argument for the stick that Butcher has been getting from a small (but vocal) minority of people on here....and the observations cast upon us by the visiting Brentford fan are well off the mark, yet some will see it as vindication for their views.

[Scotty]

More intelligent than some at least.

He had 3 seasons in the SPL where he got Motherwell into 6th or 8th place and one where they finished 12th. Latterly he has become a career loser.

He finished 12th in the season they had to make most of their squad redundant and in the following season, on an almost zero budget, and working mostly with youngsters did what under the circumstances seems miraculous to get a top 6 finish.

Yes his (individual) record apart from Motherwell makes grim reading and so for that matter does the record of his #2 ...... but together they seem to make a good team (as they did at Motherwell) ..... I still believe in Butcher and think it is ludicrous that there are calls for his head at this stage. Get a feckin grip !!!

He took over a team in freefall under Brewster, turned it around and almost kept us up .... 2 more goals over the whole season or one more draw or victory and we would have remained in the SPL. It is not TB's fault we went down any more than it is Rossco's fault because of his red card V Falkirk, or Barrowman or Rooney's fault for every goal chance they missed, or Fraser or Esson's fault for every goal conceded (you get the idea) ..... bottom line is that its a team game and everyone is a little bit to blame and should take some of it. Did Butcher get everything right after taking over - NO, but when he came in did we look like we would only go down on goal difference ??? We just have to suck it up and try to win the hardest division whilst avoiding the trap of getting so arrogant (as fans or a team) that we dont remember that there have always been decent sides in that division.

As much as I dint enjoy the County match, it did look like there is something about a few of the new signings and listening to the Partick game the commentators were highlighting that too ..... perhaps we are being too impatient ... they seem to be starting to gel with each other now (a problem we predicted Dundee would have with all their new and expensive signings - not sure why our new signings would have been immune).

TB will do for me

[PullMyFinger]

It really is quite a sad state of affairs when some fans start to almost will failure on the manager. It's as if the desire to be able to say "I told you so" outweighs the desire to see the team/club succeed.

I appreciate that times arise, such as with Brewster, when enough is enough and even with the best will in the world it's impossible to accept what is happening, but surely we are a long, long way from that with Butcher?

I can also, to a certain extent, accept that those who are not willing to give Butcher an inch are of the opinion that he is not good enough for this club, but surely he deserves the time and opportunity to prove himself and that can't be done in half a dozen matches.

There's nobody out there who can honestly say with any conviction that things have not improved since Butcher arrived at the club...so the argument that he must move the team forward to win them over is a mute one as that's already happened/happening.

I read in the passing that someone would deem an improvement on last year as acceptable....how we going to manage that having dropped a league and working on a far tighter budget?

It's almost as if some people are still in denial of the fact that we were relegated and still expect us to operate on the same level as we did in the SPL.

I've yet to see anything which comes close to a convincing argument for the stick that Butcher has been getting from a small (but vocal) minority of people on here....and the observations cast upon us by the visiting Brentford fan are well off the mark, yet some will see it as vindication for their views.

CaleyD you've said no-one can say we haven't improved and then questioned others expectations on an improvement on last year. I've probably misinterpreted what you've said but eh?

First off you need to redefine what success means to the club and what is acceptable to the fans. This is our first season back in the SFL and success to me personally would be finishing in the top 3. The club itself in a foolish advertising campaign set its sights for the top "bounce" which although it is achievable is not at all easy.

What is success for ICT this season? Fans view? Club view? Team view? Management view? Are they all the same? Is it ever?

What would failure look like for Butcher? How would we recognise it? What should be done about it? When should it be done?

Yes, results are slowly improving at the club. Has the football improved? Has the squad improved? Please elaborate on what has improved exactly.

On saturday we'll likely be starting with 8 players who weren't in the squad last season, that is a big change and it will take time to settle the team. Why so much so soon? We had players who could still do a job released for strangers. It is now without shadow of a doubt a team formed by Butcher whereby in the past our successive managers didn't make wholesale changes. It is my opinion that this is a team who may do exceptionally well but I don't expect them to win any competitions this season. If/when they do I'll be as chuffed as the next fan.

[PullMyFinger]

More intelligent than some at least.

He had 3 seasons in the SPL where he got Motherwell into 6th or 8th place and one where they finished 12th. Latterly he has become a career loser.

He finished 12th in the season they had to make most of their squad redundant and in the following season, on an almost zero budget, and working mostly with youngsters did what under the circumstances seems miraculous to get a top 6 finish.

Yes his (individual) record apart from Motherwell makes grim reading and so for that matter does the record of his #2 ...... but together they seem to make a good team (as they did at Motherwell) ..... I still believe in Butcher and think it is ludicrous that there are calls for his head at this stage. Get a feckin grip !!!

He took over a team in freefall under Brewster, turned it around and almost kept us up .... 2 more goals over the whole season or one more draw or victory and we would have remained in the SPL. It is not TB's fault we went down any more than it is Rossco's fault because of his red card V Falkirk, or Barrowman or Rooney's fault for every goal chance they missed, or Fraser or Esson's fault for every goal conceded (you get the idea) ..... bottom line is that its a team game and everyone is a little bit to blame and should take some of it. Did Butcher get everything right after taking over - NO, but when he came in did we look like we would only go down on goal difference ??? We just have to suck it up and try to win the hardest division whilst avoiding the trap of getting so arrogant (as fans or a team) that we dont remember that there have always been decent sides in that division.

As much as I dint enjoy the County match, it did look like there is something about a few of the new signings and listening to the Partick game the commentators were highlighting that too ..... perhaps we are being too impatient ... they seem to be starting to gel with each other now (a problem we predicted Dundee would have with all their new and expensive signings - not sure why our new signings would have been immune).

TB will do for me

I am not blaming Butcher for relegation. I just don't think he was the best choice of those available to us at the time. I guess I think the club has lost some of it's identity by searching so far for playing and coaching staff. In doing so I think a lot of the passion has also been lost. Is there not a lot more pride playing for your local team or cheering on local players in your local team?

Maybe you think I should start following the can cans but I'm an ICT fan and say it as I see it.

[Johnboy]

It really is quite a sad state of affairs when some fans start to almost will failure on the manager. It's as if the desire to be able to say "I told you so" outweighs the desire to see the team/club succeed.

I'll be more than happy to see the team succeed and win promotion at the end of the season

I appreciate that times arise, such as with Brewster, when enough is enough and even with the best will in the world it's impossible to accept what is happening, but surely we are a long, long way from that with Butcher?

Many more performances like the one against County won't do our prospects for promotion any good at all.

I can also, to a certain extent, accept that those who are not willing to give Butcher an inch are of the opinion that he is not good enough for this club, but surely he deserves the time and opportunity to prove himself and that can't be done in half a dozen matches.

I'll be happy to see him serve out his contract.The club's finances will probably dictate that anyway.

There's nobody out there who can honestly say with any conviction that things have not improved since Butcher arrived at the club...so the argument that he must move the team forward to win them over is a mute one as that's already happened/happening.

Going from the SPL to the SFL could hardly be described as an improvement.

I read in the passing that someone would deem an improvement on last year as acceptable....how we going to manage that having dropped a league and working on a far tighter budget?

It's almost as if some people are still in denial of the fact that we were relegated and still expect us to operate on the same level as we did in the SPL.

Obviously that can't happen but surely we can still expect to be challenging for promotion right through this season?

I've yet to see anything which comes close to a convincing argument for the stick that Butcher has been getting from a small (but vocal) minority of people on here....and the observations cast upon us by the visiting Brentford fan are well off the mark, yet some will see it as vindication for their views.

Personally I'm disappointed in that TB has not once owned up to mistaking mistakes since he took over. Decisions like dropping arguably the best goalkeeper we've ever had here, from trying to convince Tokely he'd make a better centre-back, were not good decisions... I don't think anyone is seriously calling for his head, but why should we accept all his decisions without a murmur of protest?

[Harry Chibber]

Personally I'm disappointed in that TB has not once owned up to mistaking mistakes since he took over. Decisions like dropping arguably the best goalkeeper we've ever had here, from trying to convince Tokely he'd make a better centre-back, were not good decisions... I don't think anyone is seriously calling for his head, but why should we accept all his decisions without a murmur of protest?

You honestly expect him to come out and apologise for every mistake he's made??

[Caley Stan]

I am not blaming Butcher for relegation. I just don't think he was the best choice of those available to us at the time. I guess I think the club has lost some of it's identity by searching so far for playing and coaching staff. In doing so I think a lot of the passion has also been lost. Is there not a lot more pride playing for your local team or cheering on local players in your local team?

Maybe you think I should start following the can cans but I'm an ICT fan and say it as I see it.

Is this your justification for wanting Butcher out? You don't like that fact that his signing aren't local? Did you notice that he signed a certain Mr Golabek from Laurel Avenue last week? Our captain is also a Dalneigh boy and in Russell and Roy we have a combined service to ICT of 18 years sitting on the bench. I believe the sub goalie is from the dark side of the bridge and Shinne, Ross and Sutherland have all come through the youth system. Are names like Ross and Sutherland local enough for you? There's more local flavour in this squad than in most.

I think that the vocal minority who are having a dig at Butcher just now are all folk who didn't want him in the first place. As CaleyD has pointed out, they seem more concerned with being proved right than with success for ICT, and on the evidence of the argument above, they are clutching at straws.

Edited September 9, 2009 by Caley Stan

[Johnboy]

Personally I'm disappointed in that TB has not once owned up to mistaking mistakes since he took over. Decisions like dropping arguably the best goalkeeper we've ever had here, from trying to convince Tokely he'd make a better centre-back, were not good decisions... I don't think anyone is seriously calling for his head, but why should we accept all his decisions without a murmur of protest?

You honestly expect him to come out and apologise for every mistake he's made??

Sorry.... but I'd say that these two I've highlighted cost us our place in the SPL... He would have gone up in my esteem if he had acknowledged that.

[Harry Chibber]

Personally I'm disappointed in that TB has not once owned up to mistaking mistakes since he took over. Decisions like dropping arguably the best goalkeeper we've ever had here, from trying to convince Tokely he'd make a better centre-back, were not good decisions... I don't think anyone is seriously calling for his head, but why should we accept all his decisions without a murmur of protest?

You honestly expect him to come out and apologise for every mistake he's made??

Sorry.... but I'd say that these two I've highlighted cost us our place in the SPL... He would have gone up in my esteem if he had acknowledged that.

Mate he had just started as manager... he was obviously still trying to get to grips with the squad. If it wasn't for Butcher we would have dead and buried long before the last game of the season. We go through this every fecking year, Christie, Brewster and now Butcher

[CaleyD]

CaleyD you've said no-one can say we haven't improved and then questioned others expectations on an improvement on last year. I've probably misinterpreted what you've said but eh?

I highlighted one extreme and ridiculous point about the expectations of one person who thinks an improvement on last season would be what they found acceptable. I questioned that because being in a different league with a different budget etc makes it impossible to quantify as an expectation.

First off you need to redefine what success means to the club and what is acceptable to the fans. This is our first season back in the SFL and success to me personally would be finishing in the top 3. The club itself in a foolish advertising campaign set its sights for the top "bounce" which although it is achievable is not at all easy.

What is success for ICT this season? Fans view? Club view? Team view? Management view? Are they all the same? Is it ever?

What would failure look like for Butcher? How would we recognise it? What should be done about it? When should it be done?

Yes, results are slowly improving at the club. Has the football improved? Has the squad improved? Please elaborate on what has improved exactly.

You make a very good point about the club statement on bouncing straight back. A bad move by the club, IMO, and setting themselves up for a fall, especially when they haven't done anything to back it up in terms of spending. People talk about Board Members etc investing money in the club, and whilst I'm of the opinion that it should not be expected of them, I am also of the opinion that if they are going to make wild claims about the clubs aims then they should be willing to back that up. As it is, they have made the statement and now expect the Manager to deliver it on a shoestring....and when it doesn't happen, it's the manager and players who will get the flak.

So, some people's expectations have been elevated by that statement from the club, and they do have to accept any backlash from that. Butcher can only work with what he is given, and I think he's done pretty well to put together the squad he has considering he's had NO money for transfer fees.

What I'm looking for this season is a return to a team that plays with a bit of fight and gives 100% out there on the pitch. At the start of the year we had all but lost that under Brewster, we had a squad who's heads were quick to go down and a lot of players trying to hide when out there on the pitch.....so in that respect I think we have already improved.

What would be a failure? Not getting the best from the squad we have and/or signing a load of duds. The first point is up in the air at the moment as the team are still gelling, but I think the second part is mute point because I'm pretty satisfied with what I've seen from most, if not all, of the new signings.

Has the football improved? Hard to quantify, but looking at football under Brewster and then when Butcher arrived then yes....moving in to this season, I think it's very much a case that we have to accept that we're going to get a different kind/standard given the different league.

Has the squad improved? No, but in saying that I fully expected the standard of the squad to have dropped given our situation. You can't drop a division and expect the squad to get better....especially without any money to spend on it.

On saturday we'll likely be starting with 8 players who weren't in the squad last season, that is a big change and it will take time to settle the team. Why so much so soon? We had players who could still do a job released for strangers. It is now without shadow of a doubt a team formed by Butcher whereby in the past our successive managers didn't make wholesale changes. It is my opinion that this is a team who may do exceptionally well but I don't expect them to win any competitions this season. If/when they do I'll be as chuffed as the next fan.

Some people seem to be under the impression that Butcher released all these players simply because he didn't rate them or whatever. Whilst a couple may have been released for those reasons you also have to remember that some had already decided to move on before the end of the season, the club decided to get rid of most of the U19's (Butcher had to fight to keep what he did), the club weren't willing/able to meet the wage demands of some so had to let them go and some just weren't willing to sign new contracts.

I actually think we were lucky to hold on to some of the players we did and not to find ourselves in a situation where we were looking at a totally new squad. Yes, we're looking at a team with a high % of new players, but that is also in part due to injuries and suspensions. Tokely is back now, but we still have Imrie and Odhiambo out, both players who I would expect to see as strong contenders for coming back into the starting line-up when fit.....meaning we're looking at a starting 11 with only 3 or 4 new faces, which is what you might expect going into any new season, regardless of whether you had been relegated/promoted or not.

It's very easy to take a polarised view on something because it allows you to ignore the facts you don't want to give consideration too in order to try and make a case for your opinion. All I'm saying is that, as in many cases, the actual situation probably lies somewhere in the middle.

I'm not claiming that everything is great and things are 100% as the might/should be....but we're a long way from the picture of disaster that some people are trying to paint.

[PullMyFinger]

I am not blaming Butcher for relegation. I just don't think he was the best choice of those available to us at the time. I guess I think the club has lost some of it's identity by searching so far for playing and coaching staff. In doing so I think a lot of the passion has also been lost. Is there not a lot more pride playing for your local team or cheering on local players in your local team?

Maybe you think I should start following the can cans but I'm an ICT fan and say it as I see it.

Is this your justification for wanting Butcher out? You don't like that fact that his signing aren't local? Did you notice that he signed a certain Mr Golabek from Laurel Avenue last week? Our captain is also a Dalneigh boy and in Russell and Roy we have a combined service to ICT of 18 years sitting on the bench. I believe the sub goalie is from the dark side of the bridge and Shinne, Ross and Sutherland have all come through the youth system. Are names like Ross and Sutherland local enough for you? There's more local flavour in this squad than in most.

I think that the vocal minority who are having a dig at Butcher just now are all folk who didn't want him in the first place. As CaleyD has pointed out, they seem more concerned with being proved right than with success for ICT, and on the evidence of the argument above, they are clutching at straws.

The comment in my profile was a tongue in cheek reaction to another posters comment, if it stimulates discussion such as this then it can't be a bad thing. I don't believe Butcher is here for the long haul and another of the applicants would have been. I will be over the moon and cockahoop if Butcher guides us back into the SPL at the fist time of asking but suspect that he and Maurice will be away at the end of the season regardless. Stepping stones and all that. I wholeheartedly agree with Johnboys previous post, it wasn't a time for experimenting and ultimately it may have cost us dearly.

edit to insert missing word in bold

Edited September 9, 2009 by 5thStand

[davie]

Jings again! Realise that any kind of results led management is a confidence game. It's about getting the most positive spin on everything to keep your shareholders, team and fans happy (in that order) so you are not liable to have people (including TB) bemoaning their mistakes in public except in the most coded of language. The kind of language TB used after the c*unty game. So I don't think you can say he's not acknowleging problems. as for the comparison with Brewster, I don't recognise it. Even with the ups and downs we've experienced so far, this feels nothing like the miserable depths of CB's reign.

So I don't know if I have faith (too jaundiced for that) but I see enough to have hope and at this stage of the season, that's enough.

[davebrent]

I want to see us keep in touch with the top slot, as promised with the bounce right back, IF we lose sight can I talk to you about it? I do NOT expect us to win the league this year, I DO expect a decent challenge. If we don't challenge, ie don't improve, then I will re assess my views on Butcher. Yes I hope voices like this put the pressure on, the pressure is needed this season and with it we might just get back up there.

Credit when it's due, if it comes.

Of course you can birdog. B)

I was just trying to point out to BEE123 that comparisons between Butcher's time at Brentford and his time here are not relevant at this point.

Luckily he didn't actually get the time in the job to get us relegated.

I had the misfortune to meet the man whilst he was at Brentford, he **ABUSIVE CONTENT REMOVED** alienated almost half of our squad and backroom staff. The supporters however were fairly united in hating him.

Like you I wanted to believe in the 'media face', dismissing Australian fans taunts that he was tactically inept, a **ABUSIVE CONTENT REMOVED** who had totally lost the respect of his squad.

Our new manager Andy Scott was recruited by Butcher (so there is one positive here!) I asked him if Terry had ever called to wish him well or congrats on the promotion? Butcher has to this day never contacted Andy. He had by the way pocketed a decent sum of money from us to feck off!

I wish you all well, maybe as he says the sun is shining everywhere! :P

[Harry Chibber]

I want to see us keep in touch with the top slot, as promised with the bounce right back, IF we lose sight can I talk to you about it? I do NOT expect us to win the league this year, I DO expect a decent challenge. If we don't challenge, ie don't improve, then I will re assess my views on Butcher. Yes I hope voices like this put the pressure on, the pressure is needed this season and with it we might just get back up there.

Credit when it's due, if it comes.

Of course you can birdog. B)

I was just trying to point out to BEE123 that comparisons between Butcher's time at Brentford and his time here are not relevant at this point.

Luckily he didn't actually get the time in the job to get us relegated.

I had the misfortune to meet the man whilst he was at Brentford, he **ABUSIVE CONTENT REMOVED** alienated almost half of our squad and backroom staff. The supporters however were fairly united in hating him.

Like you I wanted to believe in the 'media face', dismissing Australian fans taunts that he was tactically inept, a **ABUSIVE CONTENT REMOVED** who had totally lost the respect of his squad.

Our new manager Andy Scott was recruited by Butcher (so there is one positive here!) I asked him if Terry had ever called to wish him well or congrats on the promotion? Butcher has to this day never contacted Andy. He had by the way pocketed a decent sum of money from us to feck off!

I wish you all well, maybe as he says the sun is shining everywhere! :P

'You must eat so many lemons 'cos you are so bitter'

[Scotty]

I guess I think the club has lost some of it's identity by searching so far for playing and coaching staff. In doing so I think a lot of the passion has also been lost. Is there not a lot more pride playing for your local team or cheering on local players in your local team?

Dennis Wyness (243), Bobby Mann (214), Mark Brown (203), Stuart McCaffrey (198), Barry Robson (167), Iain Stewart (144), Ian Black (144), Paul Sheerin (142), Darren Dods (112), Paul Cherry (104) .... just 10 non-local players who have made more than 1600 appearances for the club between them. Hell, I didnt even include Huntly boy Ross Tokely who would have taken that total up to 2000+ appearances. Did/Do any of these lack a will to win for ICT because they were/are not local ? I dont think so.

As for managers/coaching staff ... remind me how local Sergei Baltacha, Steve Paterson, John Robertson and Craig Brewster were ? Only Charlie could realistically be described as a local and although Robbo is now a strong advocate of Inverness and the Highlands you could not really have described him as a "local" when he first arrived.

All in all it is a severely insular attitude to think we could have been as succesful as we have been with only "local" talent .... also, what exactly is local ? Is it Inverness, does it extend to Nairn, Elgin, Dingwall, Dornoch, Wick, Aviemore, Perth ... where do you draw the line in defining that ?

Yes, I was disappointed by the County result, yes I said it was a passionless performance, and yes I bemoaned the fact later in the pub that many of these players didnt know what it was about or how much it meant to the fans but it doesnt automatically follow that a team full of Invernessians who hadnt played in this fixture before would have fared any better.

(1) Many more performances like the one against County won't do our prospects for promotion any good at all.

(2) I'll be happy to see him serve out his contract.The club's finances will probably dictate that anyway.

(3) Going from the SPL to the SFL could hardly be described as an improvement.

(4) Obviously that can't happen but surely we can still expect to be challenging for promotion right through this season?

(5) Personally I'm disappointed in that TB has not once owned up to mistaking mistakes since he took over. Decisions like dropping arguably the best goalkeeper we've ever had here, from trying to convince Tokely he'd make a better centre-back, were not good decisions... I don't think anyone is seriously calling for his head, but why should we accept all his decisions without a murmur of protest?

Point 1: Agree. Hopefully it was just a blip but dont want to see or hear too many like that over the season.

Point 2: Agree to an extent. I would be happy for him to see out his contract until the end of the season as that is the least amount of time we should give him to mould/shape his team. However, if he is doing well and we are challenging for promotion, even if we ultimately dont quite get there, I would be happy for him to be offered another deal to stay longer. I do agree though that another contract will be hugely affected by the money on offer or what we can afford.

Point 3: The simple fact is that we did improve when Butcher arrived. Call it the new manager bounce if you like, but I honestly believe that under CB we would have been relegated many weeks earlier. I have no axe to grind with Craig Brewster the person, and certainly not CB the player, but CB the manager was an abject failure at ICT. TB must take some level of blame for not keeping us up but we would not have been going into the last game of the season needing only a point if CB was in charge.

Point 4: Agree

Point 5: A manager stands or falls on his decisions and I cant say I have ever seen too many of them hold their hands up on a regular basis and say they made a mess of things ..... Their judgement comes when they get lauded as great or handed their P45s. I am disappointed he didnt keep us up and as I have consistently said, he must take some of the blame for last season, but the vast majority of the damage in terms of results and off-field morale was done long before he arrived. I would agree that the two things you highlighted do seem poor decisions and quite possibly contributed to our relegation but there were hundreds if not thousands of other decisions taken over the course of last season by players and managers alike that also contributed to it ...

[PullMyFinger]

I guess I think the club has lost some of it's identity by searching so far for playing and coaching staff. In doing so I think a lot of the passion has also been lost. Is there not a lot more pride playing for your local team or cheering on local players in your local team?

All in all it is a severely insular attitude to think we could have been as succesful as we have been with only "local" talent .... also, what exactly is local ? Is it Inverness, does it extend to Nairn, Elgin, Dingwall, Dornoch, Wick, Aviemore, Perth ... where do you draw the line in defining that ?

Severely insular? :P

Can you now read my thoughts Scotty? B)

I did not say we could've been as successful with only locals, the majority of our new signings are average (at best) mercenaries here for the money and have no affinity with the Highlands. We have released better players, Ian Vigurs for instance has won the fizzy pop youth player of the month and I'll bet he continues to haunt us through the season.

[CaleyD]

Only here for the money??? You're having a laugh right?

As I've said before, I believe Vigurs was released because he was asking for more than we were willing to pay. So, if anything, we've got rid of a mercenary who was more interested in money than playing for his "local" club.

[PullMyFinger]

I don't belive that is the case.

I belive he'll be on less at County.

I belive Vigurs would've been worth paying it to and we're probably paying even more for less talented players now. That's what I belive.

[absent friend]

I don't belive that is the case.

I belive he'll be on less at County.

I belive Vigurs would've been worth paying it to and we're probably paying even more for less talented players now. That's what I belive.

Is this an 'I belive' fact or an 'I belive' wish it is a fact re County wage, his talent and our new players talents?

BUT

As I said elsewhere, if you are not part of the ICT management team how do you know why he should not have been off loaded?

Oh wait a second now! The manager should apologise for any mistakes, he should ask some folk on here what players he should keep or off load and who cares about confidentially - get it onto the forum! Make some of the posters happy.

.

[Harry Chibber]

I did not say we could've been as successful with only locals, the majority of our new signings are average (at best) mercenaries here for the money and have no affinity with the Highlands. We have released better players, Ian Vigurs for instance has won the fizzy pop youth player of the month and I'll bet he continues to haunt us through the season.

I believe you need to let these new players settle before judging them as "average (at best)"

[Guest]

As a newcomer to this forum I must admit I am appalled by the negativity of some of our so called supporters.

To be honest, now that I've gained entry to the forum I sort of feel like leaving.

Having been forced to sit in the main stand for our recent cup matches I feel the site perhaps carries a lot of the inherent main stand negativity.

Please re-assure me that I will sometimes find a touch of North Stand positivity as well?

If not, I'm off.