Losing faith in Butcher

[Westhillman]

After saturday's result I am rapidly losing faith in Butcher! Mr Media friendly has decided to mould his own squad unfortunately this isn't working. Today's Courier article highlights the great divide. Vigurs left the club because he felt that he was not in Butchers plans Wood has left for the same reason and now Gillespie. I guess the next will be Duff all four were seen as the future stars rising from the youth set up but have been forced to move on, in the case of Gillespie I know for a fact after been told (others too) that he no longer had a future at the club that he took it upon himself to resign after weeks of disillusionment.

What we are seeing is the nucleus of a promising youth set up being dismantled for Butchers short term gain which all true ICT fans should be able to see. Vigurs got his revenge on Saturday here's hoping that Gillespie gets the opportunity elsewhere to prove his undoubted potential. Yes he has given others a chance but were is the logic in losing the above!!!

[CaleyD]

I don't think it's as black and white as all that, and whilst I might not agree with the way some things seem to have been handled, the fact of the matter is that our Youth set up was going to be hugely diminished as a result of relegation no matter who was manager.

Keeping lads hanging on as appears to be the case with at least one of them is not how I hoped we would have done things and in cases where people were told they weren't going to feature then I would have expected it to fall within the remit of the Director of Football to sort these things out.

We're talking about talented young lads here having to make huge decisions, decisions which could not only see them lost to the club, but lost to the game if they decide to pursue another career. It's little wonder the game in this country is in such a mess and why we are such a failure at national level.

[Alex MacLeod]

Yes Butcher will bring in his own players and build his own team. Every manager does the same thing. They have a plan, a way of playing and they know who can or cant provide the required strengths. Thats the way of the game.

What we have been used to at ICT is a team built by Pele and other managers coming in but not staying long enough to make wholesale changes. Tweeks here and there each transfer window but nothing major.

Whether we'll be successful in our quest for promotion or not remains to be seen and Butchers future in management will be determined by that. He probably knows that as well. I sincerely hope he is successful and I give him the benifit of the doubt until such time as I see otherwise.

[Alex MacLeod]

Agree with CD but am not in a position to comment on individuals who have been released in recent times.

In general though, every team has some sort of youth system in place. They bring players through from primary school age to U-17 and in the case of SPL U-19. Very few of these youngsters break through into their first team though. Clubs get various grants to help with the youth systems but those grants stop at U-17. Most players are released at that point. SPL has U-19 league so, for that league, players are developed further. Sadly teams in the lower leagues cannot afford to develop further and we are one of those teams now. The SFA should be doing a hell of a lot more for those players but sadly it aint happening.

[CaleyD]

The point I was really getting at is that it's not Butchers fault these players have to be let go (unless you're of a mind that we run with a squad of youngsters)...and whilst his actions in the way he is suppose to have spoken too/dismissed conversation with some of these lads isn't right, it shouldn't be his job to have to handle players after they've been told they won't feature, certainly not when we employ a Director of Football.

Also, whilst it was inevitable that we would have to let some (most) of them go, there's ways and means of doing that and it would have cost us nothing other than a bit of time to make a few calls and try and get these lads sorted out, and if not that then they deserved to have been given some kind of severance and released instead of being forced to wait till last day of the transfer window and be forced to resign to at least give themselves a chance of getting another club after the window closes.

For me, this topic has little to do with "losing faith in Butcher" and is nothing more than a continuation of the worries about the way this club is being run at the highest level.

[CaleyP]

the point here is butcher has let these guys go and replaced them. the worrying thing is, he has replaced them with players who aren't as good as those who were allowed to leave.

[kiltarlity]

the point here is butcher has let these guys go and replaced them. the worrying thing is, he has replaced them with players who aren't as good as those who were allowed to leave.

How can you possibly make that call, so early in the season ?? Surely you cannot judge them on pre-season and a few competitive matches. Most of them are not even 100% match fit yet..!!

[CaleyP]

the point here is butcher has let these guys go and replaced them. the worrying thing is, he has replaced them with players who aren't as good as those who were allowed to leave.

How can you possibly make that call, so early in the season ?? Surely you cannot judge them on pre-season and a few competitive matches. Most of them are not even 100% match fit yet..!!

We have played 8 competitive games, and over 5 pre season games. that is plenty and if the players are not 100% fit after that many games and a pre season then that would be very worrying. how games do you think it takes??

The only player that comes close to the quality that we let leave is Cox. the rest aren't showing much at all and simply because they aren't as good.

[PullMyFinger]

Terry and Mo know what they're doing.

[mountainnut]

I'm not convinced Butcher does have a good handle on the situation. He didn't look too clever at the end of the season and he doesn't look too good at national level. I hope I am wrong. It is all very well in playing your own team but when the guys on the bench become disillusioned the rot sets in. Duncan, at least, would have got stuck in on Saturday

.

[Harry Chibber]

the point here is butcher has let these guys go and replaced them. the worrying thing is, he has replaced them with players who aren't as good as those who were allowed to leave.

How can you possibly make that call, so early in the season ?? Surely you cannot judge them on pre-season and a few competitive matches. Most of them are not even 100% match fit yet..!!

We have played 8 competitive games, and over 5 pre season games. that is plenty and if the players are not 100% fit after that many games and a pre season then that would be very worrying. how games do you think it takes??

The only player that comes close to the quality that we let leave is Cox. the rest aren't showing much at all and simply because they aren't as good.

1 loss in all those games and you have decided that the only player with any quality is Cox?? Anyway, NEWSFLASH we've dropped a division, of course the players aren't going to be the same quality as we had in the SPL

far too many people on this forum have been waiting for the opportunity to jump on Butcher's case. We've already shown up Dundee & Dunfermline who are our direct opposition for promotion. County was a blip, a horrible one but a blip none the less. I'm actually glad we got it out the way so early in the season so we know what to expect for the rest of the year

[PullMyFinger]

NEWSFLASH we've dropped a division, of course the players aren't going to be the same quality as we had in the SPL

far too many people on this forum have been waiting for the opportunity to jump on Butcher's case. We've already shown up Dundee & Dunfermline who are our direct opposition for promotion. County was a blip, a horrible one but a blip none the less. I'm actually glad we got it out the way so early in the season so we know what to expect for the rest of the year

The players aren't as good? Why? We let them go and replaced them with what?

I'm with mountainnut, Butcher's not looking too clever!

[ForCaleySake]

A couple of points here - sorry if reiterate anything which has already been said: As far as losing faith in Butcher goes we cannot expect miracles from Someone who hasn't been in charge for even one full season, and certainly not with an altogether new team. Obviously he knows what he wants for the club and unlike our previous two managers has a fair amount of experience (nothing against them for that) in this game, also with working on a tight budget when he was at Motherwell. Obviously we didn't want to be relagated - but at the end of last season when we actually did Butcher came out and said the club had prepared for this outcome (fair enough considering the season we were having - they'd have been daft not to). This clearly meant limiting the squad and therefore the wage bill. So we lost a few youth players like Vigurs and Wood who I also agree had great potential, but this could have been down to any number of factors (like the size of squad and hence how many players needed in those positions). Besides, he has already this season introduced a couple of very young players (Ross, Shinnie, Sutherland) who have a chance to flourish and possibly gain more first-team experience at this level. Who knows - he may even have set a quota for the number of youth or under-19(?) players he can have in the first-team squad. You only need to look at Motherwell and his time there to see how well he brought the youth on before.

It is typical of the current climate in football these days that people lose faith so quickly. We lost faith in Brewster because of his results against the poorer SPL teams, style of play, etc, and knew beyond reasonable doubt that we didn't have a chance of avoiding relegation. We still gave him a chance (two actually!) though. With a new set of players we have only lost one of our competitive games - and quite frankly we will lose more in a division which I always remember as being the most competitive in Scotland. It will take the team time to gel, but if and when they do, under Butcher we can start to enjoy watching Caley again - he will want to play attractive football and score goals...he may well have the players to do it too. But even without me speculating - Our manager could do with our support and without us losing faith so damn quick.

[TheKnowledge]

A couple of points here - sorry if reiterate anything which has already been said: As far as losing faith in Butcher goes we cannot expect miracles from Someone who hasn't been in charge for even one full season, and certainly not with an altogether new team. Obviously he knows what he wants for the club and unlike our previous two managers has a fair amount of experience (nothing against them for that) in this game, also with working on a tight budget when he was at Motherwell. Obviously we didn't want to be relagated - but at the end of last season when we actually did Butcher came out and said the club had prepared for this outcome (fair enough considering the season we were having - they'd have been daft not to). This clearly meant limiting the squad and therefore the wage bill. So we lost a few youth players like Vigurs and Wood who I also agree had great potential, but this could have been down to any number of factors (like the size of squad and hence how many players needed in those positions). Besides, he has already this season introduced a couple of very young players (Ross, Shinnie, Sutherland) who have a chance to flourish and possibly gain more first-team experience at this level. Who knows - he may even have set a quota for the number of youth or under-19(?) players he can have in the first-team squad. You only need to look at Motherwell and his time there to see how well he brought the youth on before.

It is typical of the current climate in football these days that people lose faith so quickly. We lost faith in Brewster because of his results against the poorer SPL teams, style of play, etc, and knew beyond reasonable doubt that we didn't have a chance of avoiding relegation. We still gave him a chance (two actually!) though. With a new set of players we have only lost one of our competitive games - and quite frankly we will lose more in a division which I always remember as being the most competitive in Scotland. It will take the team time to gel, but if and when they do, under Butcher we can start to enjoy watching Caley again - he will want to play attractive football and score goals...he may well have the players to do it too. But even without me speculating - Our manager could do with our support and without us losing faith so damn quick.

Your too intelligent to be on here. Well said.

[PullMyFinger]

More intelligent than some at least.

Firstly, Robert congratulations on a well constructed considered first post.

I do have one point to ask about it though, what exactly does the fair amount of experience that our present manager has look like? When you see it in black and white? Have you considered this? His experiences mostly include bottom of the table or thereabouts. He had 3 seasons in the SPL where he got Motherwell into 6th or 8th place and one where they finished 12th. Latterly he has become a career loser.

I refuse to believe that our fate was determined by our players alone last season, Brewster fecked up, yes but Butcher also fecked up with dubious selections. Take a look at the squad now and the squad we had last year, who has gone and who came in. Then ask yourself if you believe we are better placed now to challenge for promotion as was publically touted by the club (bounce) or for rebuilding a squad for life in the First Division (I believe this is where Butcher thinks we belong).

My apologies for such a negative post, I said before Brewster was sacked that I believed we'd be relegated. When relegated I said that we'd struggle in the First Division where other posters were talking about bouncing back up. I'm just not feeling very positive about the way things are at the moment and ultimately it comes down to a small group of people.

The muppets.

[CELTIC1CALEY3]

1 Which Manager in Scotland has brought instant long term success to their team this season? - answer 'none'

2 Which set of supporters wants an immediate easy return to the SPL? - answer 'ICT'.

3 Which set of supporters gives up all hope after a great start to the season winning all games except one? - answer 'ICT'.

4 Which set of supporters is the most fickle in terms of supporting their team at home? I have a theory on this and Grant's reaction at half time again suggested others are struggling to turn it around againgst the odds.

5 Which City ....I could go on but surely the majority amongst us can influence the minority who expect a new team under a relatively new management team with vastly reduced budgets and massive pressure to be first in their league on 1 June 2010 to realise life is not so simple. Success comes after much blood, sweat and tears.

Soon we might hear calls for Robbo to return, Pele to come out of enforced retirement, Charlie to get a second chance.

Why cannot the support get behind the club say until Christmas and help it move forward again?

[PullMyFinger]

Can we afford Butcher and Malpas in the First Division? Surely theres a get out clause.

Butcher out now, Bring back Robbo!

Soon enough for you? :D

Edit to add:-

Having now given it some more careful consideration, your suggestion of Charlie Christie getting a second chance appeals to me. Not only would it give him some time to form his own team but the experience he would gain from that would be excellent not only for him but us also as he would be a long term appointment.

We are now a first division team, get used to it. It's going to be a long season and a couple more may see us back in the SPL but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Edited September 3, 2009 by 5thStand

[rinomac]

With relegation, there were bound to be cuts in budget, reduced playing squad etc. Butcher has therefore had to build a relatively new team - something which we aren't used to at ICT. Also, the First Division is not called the hardest league to get out of for no reason. Anyone thinking that we were going to walk this league was dreaming. St Johnstone were promoted last season having drawn something like 14 games.

When Hibs bounced back up straight away when they were relegated, in the first round of matches, they didn't win many points as all the other teams were out to prove a point to the relegated SPL side and show them that they didn't have any right to just walk away with the league. Since Dundee are the league favourites, we don't have as much pressure as Hibs did in the first round of matches but teams will still want to prove themselves against us.

I think we should all give Butcher and Malpas to Christmas at least, if not the end of the season, because we don't have the money to get rid of them and with the financial restrictions that most teams in Scottish football have to deal with, we are probably not going to do much better. I'm hoping that the County game was just a blip and we can kick on from there. We are known for our horrendous starts to seasons, but we have only lost one game this year! Teams like ourselves and Falkirk will probably never be more than yo-yo teams with years split between the First and the SPL, and an occasional cup run to celebrate.

[ForCaleySake]

More intelligent than some at least.

Firstly, Robert congratulations on a well constructed considered first post.

I do have one point to ask about it though, what exactly does the fair amount of experience that our present manager has look like? When you see it in black and white? Have you considered this? His experiences mostly include bottom of the table or thereabouts. He had 3 seasons in the SPL where he got Motherwell into 6th or 8th place and one where they finished 12th. Latterly he has become a career loser.

I refuse to believe that our fate was determined by our players alone last season, Brewster fecked up, yes but Butcher also fecked up with dubious selections. Take a look at the squad now and the squad we had last year, who has gone and who came in. Then ask yourself if you believe we are better placed now to challenge for promotion as was publically touted by the club (bounce) or for rebuilding a squad for life in the First Division (I believe this is where Butcher thinks we belong).

My apologies for such a negative post, I said before Brewster was sacked that I believed we'd be relegated. When relegated I said that we'd struggle in the First Division where other posters were talking about bouncing back up. I'm just not feeling very positive about the way things are at the moment and ultimately it comes down to a small group of people.

The muppets.

Well...my name's not actually Robert...it's Chris!

I understand what you are saying about Butcher's career stats - he has not been particularly successful at numerous clubs...although interestingly enough with a little research I have found in his 26 games in charge of Caley spanning from and including the 0-0 draw against Celtic he has won 10 drawn 8 and lost 8. More of a winner then for us!

As far as the squad goes - of course it's down to everyone: the players, board, managers, etc, etc whether we were to get relegated last season...and of course Butcher has to be partly responsible for that too...but we needed a change at the time and it's very, very easy for us to sit a theorise who would have been better now that we are actually in the first division, or even which decisions to make after the game has ended!

Incidentally, we also lost a couple of players because they wanted to go (Morais, Black, Kerr), and despite cutting our trading losses from ?432K to ?113K last year (in spite of the recession), that is still a loss. Not only that but a loss at a club which has mostly lead by example in Scotland in how to be successful on a tight budget. Our playing staff was never going to be as good as we wanted it to be this year. It's hard enough to keep players if you're relegated let alone bring new, quality ones in. Besides, I'm fast becoming a fan of a couple of the new players (Hayes particularly).

Thing is, we did get relegated and for now we do belong in the first division and there is a good chance we will struggle (apologies for all the italics!). Hard as all that is to take we have to accept it and be patient. We have - in the lower divisions - had some fair success in the past and when that didn't transpire in the SPL a lot of us became pretty negative (as did the football in the last couple of seasons). Personally, I choose not to be that way, even if I do get pissed off sometimes (last Saturday for example. Lost my voice shouting). We've a long season ahead of us and we're gonna be stuck with who we have for a while yet. Butcher still has my support. Look on the bright side: We've a chance to win the Challenge Cup again!

[Libero]

A couple of points here - sorry if reiterate anything which has already been said: As far as losing faith in Butcher goes we cannot expect miracles from Someone who hasn't been in charge for even one full season, and certainly not with an altogether new team. Obviously he knows what he wants for the club and unlike our previous two managers has a fair amount of experience (nothing against them for that) in this game, also with working on a tight budget when he was at Motherwell. Obviously we didn't want to be relagated - but at the end of last season when we actually did Butcher came out and said the club had prepared for this outcome (fair enough considering the season we were having - they'd have been daft not to). This clearly meant limiting the squad and therefore the wage bill. So we lost a few youth players like Vigurs and Wood who I also agree had great potential, but this could have been down to any number of factors (like the size of squad and hence how many players needed in those positions). Besides, he has already this season introduced a couple of very young players (Ross, Shinnie, Sutherland) who have a chance to flourish and possibly gain more first-team experience at this level. Who knows - he may even have set a quota for the number of youth or under-19(?) players he can have in the first-team squad. You only need to look at Motherwell and his time there to see how well he brought the youth on before.

It is typical of the current climate in football these days that people lose faith so quickly. We lost faith in Brewster because of his results against the poorer SPL teams, style of play, etc, and knew beyond reasonable doubt that we didn't have a chance of avoiding relegation. We still gave him a chance (two actually!) though. With a new set of players we have only lost one of our competitive games - and quite frankly we will lose more in a division which I always remember as being the most competitive in Scotland. It will take the team time to gel, but if and when they do, under Butcher we can start to enjoy watching Caley again - he will want to play attractive football and score goals...he may well have the players to do it too. But even without me speculating - Our manager could do with our support and without us losing faith so damn quick.

Well...my name's not actually Robert...it's Chris!

I understand what you are saying about Butcher's career stats - he has not been particularly successful at numerous clubs...although interestingly enough with a little research I have found in his 26 games in charge of Caley spanning from and including the 0-0 draw against Celtic he has won 10 drawn 8 and lost 8. More of a winner then for us!

As far as the squad goes - of course it's down to everyone: the players, board, managers, etc, etc whether we were to get relegated last season...and of course Butcher has to be partly responsible for that too...but we needed a change at the time and it's very, very easy for us to sit a theorise who would have been better now that we are actually in the first division, or even which decisions to make after the game has ended!

Incidentally, we also lost a couple of players because they wanted to go (Morais, Black, Kerr), and despite cutting our trading losses from ?432K to ?113K last year (in spite of the recession), that is still a loss. Not only that but a loss at a club which has mostly lead by example in Scotland in how to be successful on a tight budget. Our playing staff was never going to be as good as we wanted it to be this year. It's hard enough to keep players if you're relegated let alone bring new, quality ones in. Besides, I'm fast becoming a fan of a couple of the new players (Hayes particularly).

Thing is, we did get relegated and for now we do belong in the first division and there is a good chance we will struggle (apologies for all the italics!). Hard as all that is to take we have to accept it and be patient. We have - in the lower divisions - had some fair success in the past and when that didn't transpire in the SPL a lot of us became pretty negative (as did the football in the last couple of seasons). Personally, I choose not to be that way, even if I do get pissed off sometimes (last Saturday for example. Lost my voice shouting). We've a long season ahead of us and we're gonna be stuck with who we have for a while yet. Butcher still has my support. Look on the bright side: We've a chance to win the Challenge Cup again!

Two excellent posts ;) there is going to be frustrating and challenging times ahead but ones which we should face and rise to the challenge.

[jaggie1994]

the point here is butcher has let these guys go and replaced them. the worrying thing is, he has replaced them with players who aren't as good as those who were allowed to leave.

How can you tell that. Not just because the new players have not played enough games but how many games have these players you mentioned in the first post actually played. Vigurs was playing regular football while Brewster was in charge and he did look very promising but as far as im aware you would be lucky to get 10 first team appearences for the other 3. I might be wrong as I have not checked but they have not played a lot of football for us so I would find it hard to say that we have not replaced them with players equal to the players that left

As well as that just being promising doesnt mean that they will be a good player.

I do wish that they do well in their careers and be successful

Especially Dale as I used to play football with him in the field across the road from Dows

[jaggie1994]

More intelligent than some at least.

Firstly, Robert congratulations on a well constructed considered first post.

I do have one point to ask about it though, what exactly does the fair amount of experience that our present manager has look like? When you see it in black and white? Have you considered this? His experiences mostly include bottom of the table or thereabouts. He had 3 seasons in the SPL where he got Motherwell into 6th or 8th place and one where they finished 12th. Latterly he has become a career loser.

I refuse to believe that our fate was determined by our players alone last season, Brewster fecked up, yes but Butcher also fecked up with dubious selections. Take a look at the squad now and the squad we had last year, who has gone and who came in. Then ask yourself if you believe we are better placed now to challenge for promotion as was publically touted by the club (bounce) or for rebuilding a squad for life in the First Division (I believe this is where Butcher thinks we belong).

My apologies for such a negative post, I said before Brewster was sacked that I believed we'd be relegated. When relegated I said that we'd struggle in the First Division where other posters were talking about bouncing back up. I'm just not feeling very positive about the way things are at the moment and ultimately it comes down to a small group of people.

The muppets.

Of course our squad was better last season than this season. As an SPL club last year we would have to have a better squad. I always knew that our squad would be worse this season as soon as we got relegated. Im actually think it could have been a hell of a lot worse as we still have the likes of Imrie, Foran, Munro etc

It is always going to be hard for the club to adjust to life in a new division especially when you have been relegated and I think now more than ever we need to stick together

[+DoofersDad]

More intelligent than some at least.

Firstly, Robert congratulations on a well constructed considered first post.

I do have one point to ask about it though, what exactly does the fair amount of experience that our present manager has look like? When you see it in black and white? Have you considered this? His experiences mostly include bottom of the table or thereabouts. He had 3 seasons in the SPL where he got Motherwell into 6th or 8th place and one where they finished 12th. Latterly he has become a career loser.

I refuse to believe that our fate was determined by our players alone last season, Brewster fecked up, yes but Butcher also fecked up with dubious selections. Take a look at the squad now and the squad we had last year, who has gone and who came in. Then ask yourself if you believe we are better placed now to challenge for promotion as was publically touted by the club (bounce) or for rebuilding a squad for life in the First Division (I believe this is where Butcher thinks we belong).

My apologies for such a negative post, I said before Brewster was sacked that I believed we'd be relegated. When relegated I said that we'd struggle in the First Division where other posters were talking about bouncing back up. I'm just not feeling very positive about the way things are at the moment and ultimately it comes down to a small group of people.

The muppets.

Well...my name's not actually Robert...it's Chris!

I understand what you are saying about Butcher's career stats - he has not been particularly successful at numerous clubs...although interestingly enough with a little research I have found in his 26 games in charge of Caley spanning from and including the 0-0 draw against Celtic he has won 10 drawn 8 and lost 8. More of a winner then for us!

As far as the squad goes - of course it's down to everyone: the players, board, managers, etc, etc whether we were to get relegated last season...and of course Butcher has to be partly responsible for that too...but we needed a change at the time and it's very, very easy for us to sit a theorise who would have been better now that we are actually in the first division, or even which decisions to make after the game has ended!

Incidentally, we also lost a couple of players because they wanted to go (Morais, Black, Kerr), and despite cutting our trading losses from ?432K to ?113K last year (in spite of the recession), that is still a loss. Not only that but a loss at a club which has mostly lead by example in Scotland in how to be successful on a tight budget. Our playing staff was never going to be as good as we wanted it to be this year. It's hard enough to keep players if you're relegated let alone bring new, quality ones in. Besides, I'm fast becoming a fan of a couple of the new players (Hayes particularly).

Thing is, we did get relegated and for now we do belong in the first division and there is a good chance we will struggle (apologies for all the italics!). Hard as all that is to take we have to accept it and be patient. We have - in the lower divisions - had some fair success in the past and when that didn't transpire in the SPL a lot of us became pretty negative (as did the football in the last couple of seasons). Personally, I choose not to be that way, even if I do get pissed off sometimes (last Saturday for example. Lost my voice shouting). We've a long season ahead of us and we're gonna be stuck with who we have for a while yet. Butcher still has my support. Look on the bright side: We've a chance to win the Challenge Cup again!

Are you sure your name's not Terry?

[Sonam]

1 Which Manager in Scotland has brought instant long term success to their team this season? - answer 'none'

2 Which set of supporters wants an immediate easy return to the SPL? - answer 'ICT'.

3 Which set of supporters gives up all hope after a great start to the season winning all games except one? - answer 'ICT'.

4 Which set of supporters is the most fickle in terms of supporting their team at home? I have a theory on this and Grant's reaction at half time again suggested others are struggling to turn it around againgst the odds.

5 Which City ....I could go on but surely the majority amongst us can influence the minority who expect a new team under a relatively new management team with vastly reduced budgets and massive pressure to be first in their league on 1 June 2010 to realise life is not so simple. Success comes after much blood, sweat and tears.

Soon we might hear calls for Robbo to return, Pele to come out of enforced retirement, Charlie to get a second chance.

Why cannot the support get behind the club say until Christmas and help it move forward again?

1. Craig Levein, done it for a few seasons. If they had not got their players constantly poached by bigger clubs I'm sure they'd have got 2nd in the SPL by now. However every time Levein sells a player he spots a suitable replacement. IMO the best manager in Scotland at the mo, by far!

2. Yes, ICT but it was arrogance and stupidity from the start. Especially for the County game. Hate to say it, but County are not a bad team. To think that 12 points was won as many supporters seemed to think was stupid! This division will be a struggle for ALL teams in it.

3. Yip.

4. I hear Elgin fans are pretty bad :(

5. Agreed, I am critical of Butcher too but we need to support the man. It's FAR too early in the season to call for his head. And anyway, if he were to go which manager would be mad enough to accept this job with all the expectation the fans demand? I would settle for 2nd or 3rd with good football and then next season promotion. Maybe, just maybe we need to be patient

[Pele_Is_God]

5. John Robertson

The time to judge Butcher will be at the end of the season I agree, but if we dont win the league I think he will be away anyway.