Losing faith in Butcher

[absent friend]

Maybe John would come back if needed due to his historic link with the club BUT when he loses his first match he will be put on a time limit by this 'fans' and given a month/two months to produce results the 'fans' will be happy with and this with another big change in playing personal, all freebies, before his head was called for.

John come and join us if our Board are stupid enough to heed the herd on here BUT be aware that the ICT managerial role must be now the most shooglie hook you can hang your jacket on, due to our fan base.

ICT recruit a good manager? The fans on here would drive away any person with an ounce of managerial ability, unless they were cast-offs or just plain daft!

The greatest manager, in my eyes, would have been given the bums rush by this crowd on here due to his teams initial performances so you see - Alex Ferguson therefore is not fit to manage ICT in the eyes of those negative posters on here?

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[DALNEIGHCALEY]

Thats absolute nonsense absent friend , just because we all dont wear the same rose tinted specs as yourself and dare to question Butchers f*ck ups we're not real fans !!!

[Guest birdog]

Thats absolute nonsense absent friend , just because we all dont wear the same rose tinted specs as yourself and dare to question Butchers f*ck ups we're not real fans !!!

Excellent post, there are too many happy clappers treating fellow fans like hooligans both on the forum here and at matches just because they speak out and question the judgement of players and management. The reason that people get so angry and animated is because they care for the club so much. Perhaps those who shout down fellow fans on the forum or give the 20 yard stare at matches should question their loyalty towards the club, after all they are quite happy to lend unquestioning support those who drag our club further and further down.

[absent friend]

Thats absolute nonsense absent friend , just because we all dont wear the same rose tinted specs as yourself and dare to question Butchers f*ck ups we're not real fans !!!

Questioning the managers , whatever you call them, is one thing but, in my opinion, to have such a seasoned manager with his playing and managing pedigree, in charge of our Div 1 club, makes us jolly lucky. To offer him time to improve, after one defeat this season, with a virtual new team, is nonsense and highlights some of the 'fans' ICT have.

Excellent post,(Dalneigh Caley) there are too many happy clappers treating fellow fans like hooligans both on the forum here and at matches just because they speak out and question the judgement of players and management. The reason that people get so angry and animated is because they care for the club so much. Perhaps those who shout down fellow fans on the forum or give the 20 yard stare at matches should question their loyalty towards the club, after all they are quite happy to lend unquestioning support those who drag our club further and further down.

Putting the manager under pressure with one lost game this season, in your book, is supportive??

If any other stance is taken we are 'happy clappers' ' silent starers at yards' 'unable to see the direction the club has moved'.

I would submit that the main thrust of real ICT supporters, were aware of the downward spiral we were on when Butcher took us over and were grateful we were able to be involved in the SPL up to the last kick of the ball in the last match!!

We also appreciate the financial restraints, change of playing staff and loss of confidence relegation created and we think that this is the time to get behind our team, including the management team.

I respect your right to have the opposite view and no, I don't have to resort to name calling!! You see this is what grown ups do.

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[DornochCaley]

I have never had real faith in Butcher. I thought he was the wrong man when he was appointed. His managerial record was not that great. But then it looked like we might stay up and i thought maybe i was wrong, but, i proved myself right. Some of his decisions are terrible and he doesnt have a clue about first division football.

[Guest birdog]

Thats absolute nonsense absent friend , just because we all dont wear the same rose tinted specs as yourself and dare to question Butchers f*ck ups we're not real fans !!!

Questioning the managers , whatever you call them, is one thing but, in my opinion, to have such a seasoned manager with his playing and managing pedigree, in charge of our Div 1 club, makes us jolly lucky. To offer him time to improve, after one defeat this season, with a virtual new team, is nonsense and highlights some of the 'fans' ICT have.

Excellent post,(Dalneigh Caley) there are too many happy clappers treating fellow fans like hooligans both on the forum here and at matches just because they speak out and question the judgement of players and management. The reason that people get so angry and animated is because they care for the club so much. Perhaps those who shout down fellow fans on the forum or give the 20 yard stare at matches should question their loyalty towards the club, after all they are quite happy to lend unquestioning support those who drag our club further and further down.

Putting the manager under pressure with one lost game this season, in your book, is supportive??

If any other stance is taken we are 'happy clappers' ' silent starers at yards' 'unable to see the direction the club has moved'.

I would submit that the main thrust of real ICT supporters, were aware of the downward spiral we were on when Butcher took us over and were grateful we were able to be involved in the SPL up to the last kick of the ball in the last match!!

We also appreciate the financial restraints, change of playing staff and loss of confidence relegation created and we think that this is the time to get behind our team, including the management team.

I respect your right to have the opposite view and no, I don't have to resort to name calling!! You see this is what grown ups do.

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On the contrary my views do not oppose yours, yet, I happen to believe that Butcher needs a little more time, as I posted in another thread. However, I do believe that others are entitled to their opinion without having their commitment as fans questioned. Have you ever thought about their motives behind becoming so enraged at what is happening on matchdays? You are more worried about how the crowd are reacting than how the players are performing, you are more willing to make excuses for the players than ask questions of them.

I opposed the appointment of our previous manager vigorously from the start and was amazed by how much, despite the results and performances on the pitch, some people were unwilling to see my point of view until it was too late. I have no intention of making the mistake others made, Butcher has my backing but I am willing to take other's viewpoints and make my own decision as to whether they are valid or not given the current circumstances, I certainly will not follow him blindly or let my pride get in the way when it is obvious that things are going wrong. He has my support but I am not happy, we may have only had one defeat but that defeat came from a team who signed and played players not deemed good enough for our first team by our current manager, a team who are releasing players not good enough for their first team and we are signing them. We have only had one result this season which has been of note, the rest should have been an easier job than we made it.

I appreciate there is a transition period from where we were to where we are now but how long are we going to give the team to gel, how long before it's too late again? My own opinion is that there must be a vast improvement before C*unty away. There has been huge criticism of the BoD on how late the change in management came the last time, personally I think the fans should have been putting pressure on earlier, the board followed the normal procedures and the fans were too forgiving for too long.

[CaleyD]

It's all demand, demand, demand and take, take, take with many (maybe even the majority) of our fans.

Fans complain that we've not signed this player or that player etc, yet when asked to do their part, to maybe give up a couple of hours of their time or whatever to help out the club to reduce spending and perhaps give the manager a few extra quid then the silence is deafening.

I'm sorry, but until such time as the fans can say they are doing all THEY can to support and help this team/club then they have little room to be judging those who are doing their best....let alone judge those who have, so far this season, done pretty well over the piece.

Losing faith in Butcher??? Don't make me laugh.....I'm surprised he's not losing faith in us!!!

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

Butcher has been a failure in about all of his past management jobs and he's not impressing me in the slightest here . I refuse to blindly support anyone and will voice my opinion as I see fit .

[CaleyD]

What he's done in the past matters not a jot. It's what he does in the here and now.

Nobody is being asked to "blindly support" anyone, just get off the guys back and give him a chance to do his job.

Get over yourself.

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

What he's done in the past matters not a jot. It's what he does in the here and now.

Nobody is being asked to "blindly support" anyone, just get off the guys back and give him a chance to do his job.

Get over yourself.

Get you . I want whats best for the club and IMHO Butcher is not the man for the job .

[Guest birdog]

It's all demand, demand, demand and take, take, take with many (maybe even the majority) of our fans.

Fans complain that we've not signed this player or that player etc, yet when asked to do their part, to maybe give up a couple of hours of their time or whatever to help out the club to reduce spending and perhaps give the manager a few extra quid then the silence is deafening.

I'm sorry, but until such time as the fans can say they are doing all THEY can to support and help this team/club then they have little room to be judging those who are doing their best....let alone judge those who have, so far this season, done pretty well over the piece.

Losing faith in Butcher??? Don't make me laugh.....I'm surprised he's not losing faith in us!!!

I am sorry CaleyD but I don't see how that is relevant, are you saying that because we don't give up our time to go paint some toilets we should accept poor results? The club set a goal for the season, a statement of intent with their bounce right back campaign to sell season tickets, we responded better than anyone would ever have expected. That is the one and only thing which I can remember the club asking of us. If you are referring to poorly organised attempts at getting helpers for car boot sales and painting toilets then I can honestly say I have not seen any official request from the club itself, I may well have missed it but all I recall are threads on here.

You have had a momentous change in attitude towards the club lately, I hope that you don't mind me asking when you took on the job of announcer at the matches was it actually an announcer/PR position you took?

I bought my usual two season tickets plus an additional one this season, I have spent the same if not more in the club shop as my usual budget, I have taken people to matches who have never been before, I have bought a programme for each match and spent money in the refreshment kiosk. I am sorry I have missed any of your personal projects to save the club money but would you mind if I was to hold an opinion about our team. After all if you ban the fans from having an opinion because you deem we have not done enough to merit one I fear that this message board will become rather redundant.

[CaleyD]

Get you . I want whats best for the club and IMHO Butcher is not the man for the job .

The way I view it...and I've not always got it right...is that there's a time to speak up and a time to accept that what you say does more harm than good and you just have to accept a situation and try and make the best of it.

Some people voiced a concern over Butcher when the initial rumours broke of his appointment, and that's fine as there's a chance (albeit a slim one) that those opinions could still influence the decision.

It was the same with Brewster when it first came to light he was being considered (or was a shoe-in) for a return to ICT for a second spell in charge. I was among those who had grave concerns about his reappointment, but once it was a done deal I got behind him and the team and did my utmost to support the team as a whole. Only after a sustained period of bad form/results and it becoming blatantly obvious that he was ripping the heart out of the team did I then take up my "anti-Brewster" stance once again.

Maybe I'm wrong, who knows, but I think Butcher should be afforded that same courtesy (as should any new manager). It's far, far too early to be making any call on whether Butcher is up to the task this season and, IMO, those who choose to decry the man at every opportunity only serve to make his job harder.

Get behind the man, get behind the team and play your part as the "12th man". If it doesn't work out then you can hand on heart say you did your part.....because right now it's as if we have a certain group within the fanbase that seems to be willing him to fail, and to what ends? So they can say "I told you so?" What good does that do ICT?

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

I dont agree that he hasn't had enough time to prove himself , he had the best part of half a season in the SPL and his team selections at times were baffling also his motivational skills seem to leave a lot to be desired but as I've said on another thread I'll give him until Christmas to change my opinion .

[Georgeios]

I'm not losing faith in him at all. we have a proven good team. just we arent good all the time... that in my opinion is down to our players!! he picks a team that holds off dundee..... then the next almost the same 11 play utter pish... hows that TB's fault?

[Johnboy]

I'm not losing faith in him at all. we have a proven good team. just we arent good all the time... that in my opinion is down to our players!! he picks a team that holds off dundee..... then the next almost the same 11 play utter pish... hows that TB's fault?

How's that TB's fault?

He's the manager and is responsible for picking the team, and telling them what he wants them to do.

[Georgeios]

I'm not losing faith in him at all. we have a proven good team. just we arent good all the time... that in my opinion is down to our players!! he picks a team that holds off dundee..... then the next almost the same 11 play utter pish... hows that TB's fault?

How's that TB's fault?

He's the manager and is responsible for picking the team, and telling them what he wants them to do.

yes i get that but why then the team that holds dundee off and then the next week gets pumped... Im sure the pre match brief would have gone along the line off.... Same again this week.... then the players go out and do a half arsed effort.... what makes that TB's fault. he can only ask them to play the same way,,,,,

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

Good result as it was at Dens I wouldn't read too much into it as they have a lot of new players as well .

[CaleyP]

I personally think we need to learn from past mistakes. One thing i notice CaleyD, you say butcher needs more time, however, you say we took to long before we replaced brew, i think there is problem here with butcher and it would be nice if we address it now, have a little bit of foresight this time, otherwise we're just gonna find ourselves saying the same thing as we did with brew, are we just gonna do the same with butcher....i really think we're on that path again. Butcher has had enough time to prove he is a capable manager and i have yet to see that. I really dont think we should wait until christmas this time like we did with brew, i think if things weren't to improve in the next month to 6 weeks then the club should really consider doing something about it.

Also I would like to point out when applying to do a certain job, how you perform in that job in the past is paramount, especially in this type of job, so of course his record is important. You can't just ignore his bad record because it clearly doesn't help with your view point, i bet you would be bringing up his past stats as manager if they were good.

[SMEE]

While Im not calling for Butch's head...i do think he has failed to sort out the schizophrenic nature of the teams performance.

The Dundee result aside, i believe, we should be sitting with at least antoher 5-6 points MORE than we currently have. there are those who say we have no right to belittle other teams...but, for a team who are endevouring to reach the SPL this season, we have to be taking care of teams like Ayr Utd and Ross Co, ESPECIALLY at home! While Butch was not my choice for the managers job, like DC, i will give try and give him till xmas before i start making my discontent known. But, there are already issues cropping up.

[Johnboy]

I'm not losing faith in him at all. we have a proven good team. just we arent good all the time... that in my opinion is down to our players!! he picks a team that holds off dundee..... then the next almost the same 11 play utter pish... hows that TB's fault?

How's that TB's fault?

He's the manager and is responsible for picking the team, and telling them what he wants them to do.

yes i get that but why then the team that holds dundee off and then the next week gets pumped... Im sure the pre match brief would have gone along the line off.... Same again this week.... then the players go out and do a half arsed effort.... what makes that TB's fault. he can only ask them to play the same way,,,,,

Yeah... fair enough, but some of our more optimistic fans might have expected him to make a few crucial tactical changes at half time, or made an inspired substitution or two as the game (c*unty) progressed...

He just seemed to me to throw in the towel last Saturday.

Maybe it is difficult to make an inspired substitution when you don't have any inspirational players sitting on the bench.

[Georgeios]

I'm not losing faith in him at all. we have a proven good team. just we arent good all the time... that in my opinion is down to our players!! he picks a team that holds off dundee..... then the next almost the same 11 play utter pish... hows that TB's fault?

How's that TB's fault?

He's the manager and is responsible for picking the team, and telling them what he wants them to do.

yes i get that but why then the team that holds dundee off and then the next week gets pumped... Im sure the pre match brief would have gone along the line off.... Same again this week.... then the players go out and do a half arsed effort.... what makes that TB's fault. he can only ask them to play the same way,,,,,

Yeah... fair enough, but some of our more optimistic fans might have expected him to make a few crucial tactical changes at half time, or made an inspired substitution or two as the game (c*unty) progressed...

He just seemed to me to throw in the towel last Saturday.

Maybe it is difficult to make an inspired substitution when you don't have any inspirational players sitting on the bench.

we need DI and Rossco back... then we'd have player playing for there place and some choice on the bentch.. as for insparational players... where have we got them money to be buying them.. we have folk not good enought for there last team.....

[BornCaley]

J*sus people whats going on here...ive been avoiding the forums of late..i cant stant the crap thats being said on here...We are not millionaires so its a little early to start chopping managers heads because they lose a game to our rivals

TB & MO should have our support unconditionally, regardless of their track records; until such a time we all know for sure that they cant cut it.

What happened to the chorus of "I BELIEVE" when we were playing for our lives in the last games of the SP(hel)L.

I for one still believe and will do so for the foreseeable future..

Why dont we all get a grip on reality

[DingwallAway]

Well said Big Yin. To call for Butcher to be sacked already is a ridiculous statement.

I Believe Butcher is the man to take us back to the SPheLl.

[DornochCaley]

Butcher has been a failure in about all of his past management jobs and he's not impressing me in the slightest here . I refuse to blindly support anyone and will voice my opinion as I see fit .

:D :) :D

I dont beleve hes done a good job. A good job would have been fighting relegation bravely. And people will say he did that. but no. If we picked up a few points but still got relegated then at least we tried.

BUT

We were off the bottom and looking good to stay up. Butchers tactics got us relegated and thats the end of it. He hasnt impressed me enough but as DC said, i will also give him to christmas. If we are not in a good position, he can GTF!

[The Mantis]

Good result as it was at Dens I wouldn't read too much into it as they have a lot of new players as well .

It's nothing to do with the result. It was the performance.

We took the game to them from the off and passed the ball to each other without humping it long. A bit like C(o)unty last week in fact.

The bond between the team and the fans was obvious at the end of the game. We applauded them off the park for their efforts. TB and the players did the same to us.

It's a shame the 95% of fans who only attend home games couldn't have seen it.

If we're in the bottom half after playing everybody home and away, maybe that's the time to start moaning about the manager.