Rangers go into administration

[KingBeastie]

Interesting debate this

I think the little clubs in the lower divisions will enjoy the cash from a visit from Rangers

If they get punished like Livingstone ?

I could run a football team using other peoples money

Money could be made but at what cost?

Some of these sleepy villages or towns will get destroyed when thousands of Orcs turn up on a Saturday afternoon

Dougal

So it came to pass-, words of the prophet Dougal in february

Always suspected that the ramblings of Laurence and Dougal were from the same keyboard, that being the one belonging to Alan Douglas.

I can't let you get away with this statement unchallenged.

I am being serious now, not my usual laid back really unconcerned self.

I feel the above statement is the daftest post I have ever read on this forum.

It states that Dougal and I, are one and the same person, or at least use the same machine.

That is what is totally daft and I think is either said under the influence of drink or Caley has lost his marbles.

In any event I cannot but think he is making mischief for the sake of it.

In the above post I was referring to statements made last February which foretold the future, at a time when nobody thought that Rangers would not get a reprieve. I t was thought tha Rangers would be bought by a rich guy and rebooted in the SPL, having paid around a third of the debt off instead of the miserable 9p in the pound which was actually suggested. Nobody really thought that Rangers would be playing in Div 3 so that is why I referred to a prophet

I rather feel I have fallen for mind games here, if it was just me I would not get involved, but Dougal is an innocent party here,

Caley you should apologise to him, if nothing else.

This is f**kin' hilarious!

[starchief]

Three more signings for the Rangers (see, it sounds more impressive - let's stick with ordinary Rangers). That's some team they're building up. Aren't they banned from the Scottish Cup? Do they really need that good a team for SFL3 - even SFL2?

[Oddquine]

Three more signings for the Rangers (see, it sounds more impressive - let's stick with ordinary Rangers). That's some team they're building up. Aren't they banned from the Scottish Cup? Do they really need that good a team for SFL3 - even SFL2?

Maybe anticipating a rejig of Scottish football for next season with a 2 league system and the additions to the top league being by invitation, so that next year they will be back where they think they belong? Or does that sound extremely cynical?

[+bughtmaster]

Cynical not a bit, realistic yes. Possibly they already have assurances of the new superleague step up that nobody else yet knows about. Now am I being cynical? don't think so, not by going by recent history and the fanatical need to get THEM back to the forefront.

Not doing badly for a new Team in the third div but I'm still not sure what their real name is now???????? hope they get it settled before long.

Three more signings for the Rangers (see, it sounds more impressive - let's stick with ordinary Rangers). That's some team they're building up. Aren't they banned from the Scottish Cup? Do they really need that good a team for SFL3 - even SFL2?

Maybe anticipating a rejig of Scottish football for next season with a 2 league system and the additions to the top league being by invitation, so that next year they will be back where they think they belong? Or does that sound extremely cynical?

[gordieict]

I find it very strange and a bit disturbing that they are the most active team in the transfer market this season

[starchief]

Maybe anticipating a rejig of Scottish football for next season with a 2 league system and the additions to the top league being by invitation, so that next year they will be back where they think they belong? Or does that sound extremely cynical?

I'd be strongly in favour of a two-league, 16 teams or so per division set up. That's the kind of thing that might work for Scottish fitba. Four 'professional' leagues is simply ridiculous, given the crowds at some of their games. They were lecturing the SPL clubs on not over-spending. Time for the SFL to do the same and not leech off SPL money.

[+DoofersDad]

I find it very strange and a bit disturbing that they are the most active team in the transfer market this season

Absolutely. Old Rangers wound up with over £100million of debt and new Rangers spend freely in the transfer market just to show that now that they have re-emerged as a debt free club, they have more money than the rest of us. Potential investors who would not have put their money in to subsidise the debt of old Rangers can now feel confident that their money can be used to take the club forward. I understand this is the way company law works but it doesn't make it right.

[bauhaus]

Wont all the clubs, SPL and SFL have a vote each in what set up the leagues will be changed too, think that will be enough to ensure new rangers dont get into the top league next season.

[+bughtmaster]

I find it very strange and a bit disturbing that they are the most active team in the transfer market this season

Absolutely. Old Rangers wound up with over £100million of debt and new Rangers spend freely in the transfer market just to show that now that they have re-emerged as a debt free club, they have more money than the rest of us. Potential investors who would not have put their money in to subsidise the debt of old Rangers can now feel confident that their money can be used to take the club forward. I understand this is the way company law works but it doesn't make it right.

No it doesn't make it right and it is the only way that Newco are ever going to beat other Clubs, they have to buy success.

However that is the way of the world,if you cant be clever enough to avoid being caught cheating then money is the alternative route, buy your way to the top of the ladder. That isn't right either but honesty doesn't seem to matter as long as you find success!!

[bauhaus]

Have they paid any transfer fee for any of these players, or is it just wages. Hearts and Dons were paying 5-10k per week for top players until recently, heard Rangers are paying these new scabs around that too. Is that the kind of income they will still make in division 3?

In Italy, Fiorentina, Juventus and Napoli have all been demoted for match fixing, did they just buy better players then the leagues they were in to get back up the leagues. Look whats happening to Portsmouth, that club have gone under about 3 or 4 times now trying to buy their way back.

[Oddquine]

Wont all the clubs, SPL and SFL have a vote each in what set up the leagues will be changed too, think that will be enough to ensure new rangers dont get into the top league next season.

I wish I could believe that........I really do....but I'm afraid I don't.

<rant mode on>

After all, why would any punter expect that an SFA which permitted the OF to organise and implement a breakaway SPL, specifically to finance their ambitions to dominate Scottish football and earn a lot of money forever, and who is watching what is going on now, believe that the OF schmoozing mindset had changed?

Why would any punter assume that an SFA, which not only allowed the OF to set up the SPL, but allowed them to set it up so the OF alone were in control of all income engendered through the media, to ensure those two clubs took the lion's share, and who is watching what is going on now, believe that the OF schmoozing mindset had changed?

Let's be honest here...all the other teams involved in the SPL were deliberately, due to the division of income, designed to be the OF whipping boys....with little other purpose than to provide them with teams to beat to top the SPL table and get into the lucrative European market. It wasn't the removal of Oldco which placed the SPL clubs in a difficult position...it was the greed of those who originally agreed to form the SPL at their invitation in the first place which did that.

Why would any punter who has watched the whole fiasco over the last six months since Oldco went into administration (and who could see this coming at some stage) logically assume that anything in the mindset of the football hierarchy, cares one toss about the prestige of Scottish Football, but are emulating our idiot bankers as in the idea that what we can make out of it for ourselves is more important than having any vestige of integrity?

I have been sickened by the Scottish Football hierarchy and members of all three branches who had to be forced by fans to do what was right and not what was expedient to maintain their own jobs and their own teams, regardless of the laughing stock it made of the second oldest national Football Association in the world.

I'd like to see us getting back to the pre-SPL days, as I kinda preferred it when we had no such fecking thing as an elite league...because we knew there were/are not 10 or 12 clubs so good as to be considered elite.....and you can't form a league out of basically two flaming teams buying success and 8 or 10 other teams making up the whipping dog numbers and call it elite...because it has proven that it is not.

Have the other participants in the SPL been happy, really, to be the bit part players in the OF roadshow in the past, while knowing that, due to their own participation in the SPL, they were simply allowing the OF to increase their dominance of the league and Scottish football.......or did the increased income compensate for the fact that, instead of fighting for top place in a fair and equitable league, most teams outside the OF have been fighting all their SPL lives not to be chucked out of the lucrative machine?

<rant mode off.....for the moment>

[Laurence]

I agree with what you say in its entirety

In addittion ther as been an abnormal search fo success by the top two clubs. The wages paid have been way out of line with income

I would love to see a salery cap, similar to the NFL in the USA

If that means the top players ( did they get top players ?) may sign elsewhere then so be it.

In the old days there was drift to England anyway, even when players all got paid the same, Scottish footballers like Dave McKay ( Spurs )

dominated English football, why not now? I wonder

Wont all the clubs, SPL and SFL have a vote each in what set up the leagues will be changed too, think that will be enough to ensure new rangers dont get into the top league next season.

I wish I could believe that........I really do....but I'm afraid I don't.

<rant mode on>

After all, why would any punter expect that an SFA which permitted the OF to organise and implement a breakaway SPL, specifically to finance their ambitions to dominate Scottish football and earn a lot of money forever, and who is watching what is going on now, believe that the OF schmoozing mindset had changed?

Why would any punter assume that an SFA, which not only allowed the OF to set up the SPL, but allowed them to set it up so the OF alone were in control of all income engendered through the media, to ensure those two clubs took the lion's share, and who is watching what is going on now, believe that the OF schmoozing mindset had changed?

Let's be honest here...all the other teams involved in the SPL were deliberately, due to the division of income, designed to be the OF whipping boys....with little other purpose than to provide them with teams to beat to top the SPL table and get into the lucrative European market. It wasn't the removal of Oldco which placed the SPL clubs in a difficult position...it was the greed of those who originally agreed to form the SPL at their invitation in the first place which did that.

Why would any punter who has watched the whole fiasco over the last six months since Oldco went into administration (and who could see this coming at some stage) logically assume that anything in the mindset of the football hierarchy, cares one toss about the prestige of Scottish Football, but are emulating our idiot bankers as in the idea that what we can make out of it for ourselves is more important than having any vestige of integrity?

I have been sickened by the Scottish Football hierarchy and members of all three branches who had to be forced by fans to do what was right and not what was expedient to maintain their own jobs and their own teams, regardless of the laughing stock it made of the second oldest national Football Association in the world.

I'd like to see us getting back to the pre-SPL days, as I kinda preferred it when we had no such fecking thing as an elite league...because we knew there were/are not 10 or 12 clubs so good as to be considered elite.....and you can't form a league out of basically two flaming teams buying success and 8 or 10 other teams making up the whipping dog numbers and call it elite...because it has proven that it is not.

Have the other participants in the SPL been happy, really, to be the bit part players in the OF roadshow in the past, while knowing that, due to their own participation in the SPL, they were simply allowing the OF to increase their dominance of the league and Scottish football.......or did the increased income compensate for the fact that, instead of fighting for top place in a fair and equitable league, most teams outside the OF have been fighting all their SPL lives not to be chucked out of the lucrative machine?

<rant mode off.....for the moment>

Edited August 10, 2012 by Laurence

[Oddquine]

Posting this without comment because I am speechless atm http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19225698.

[Laurence]

I think I will stop buying stuff from Sports Direct

Edited August 11, 2012 by Laurence

[IBM]

Herd today on the radio that the total debt is £94 million with the administrators bill over £3 million. I still find it hard to understand how they can still play at any level as Rangers at Ibrox and walk away from all this debt!

[+DoofersDad]

Rangers lose to bottom of the table Stirling :rotflmao:

[Yngwie]

Their next match is the big Glasgow derby, which as usual is a potential title decider.

[bauhaus]

:lol: :lol: getting rid of your £94m tax debt, to grace the third division :lol: :lol:

[Neildsleftpeg]

:lol: :lol: getting rid of your £94m tax debt, to grace the third division :lol: :lol:

Ouch.......

[MarkD]

Turns out that they didn't have a £94m tax debt after all.

[CaleyD]

This is far from over....my thoughts on what may happen from here.....

1. HMRC will appeal.

2. Liquidators announce that if decision is upheld they will pursue those in receipt of "loans".

3. Those in receipt of "loans" think ...."sod this, I'm not coughing up"....and start to spill on the real nature of the payments.

4. FTT decision is overturned and HMRC get the outcome they want/need to now pursue others who've done the same.

Make no mistake...this case was never about the HMRC getting any money from Rangers. There's far bigger fish they want to fry over the use of EBT's and Rangers is just the test case and will set the precedent.

[bauhaus]

what happens now? Sir David Murray now no longer the blamehound as it has been proved that EBT was not illegal if not immoral. Hearing a collective sigh of relief from the English Premiership who pay these EBTs also.

So Mr Whyte will be the target of Rangers fans aggression now, as he will be one to solely blame for not paying their VAT and Tax.

Raises the question, if they were to know they would have had a positive outcome in the case of the big tax, DID THEY NEED TO GO INTO ADMINISTRATION AND THEN LIQUIDATION, AS IT WAS ALL BASED AROUND THE BIG AND SMALL TAX CASE.

Could this be a massive mistake by the SPL and SFA, who we are used to seeing them score own goals. Rangers will likely get back to the SPL even stronger as they would have still been fighting to clear the manageable debt they had for a decade, but now they have no debt and will no doubt make bigger signings when they do get back. Will they have their signing ban lifted. Will the SPL compensate those clubs for the down turn in income without Rangers in the SPL, mind you all the SPL clubs chose to throw them out collectively, which in hindsight may not have been the right decision, although to all it did seem correct at the time. I know one thing, I would not want to be Craig Whyte now, as all blame shifts to his shoulders.

An accountant said to me about 6 months ago that Rangers would probably get off with it, as he had some clients paid via EBTs, and they were not illegal. But it was his after comment that struck a cord. He is a massive Man Utd fan, and he said if Rangers get a guilty verdict, Man U, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea were going to get visited first by the tax man, and he thought that this would probably not be allowed by the well to do workings in England as these clubs would cause so much unrest in English culture if they were to go to the wall.

Dare say this means Rangers oldco will keep their titles. Still it will be strange to want Elgin City to win over the next two weekends, never thought I would want that!

[Alex MacLeod]

This case was against old Rangers. This case did not liquidate old Rangers. Debt did.

[Yngwie]

Could this be a massive mistake by the SPL and SFA, who we are used to seeing them score own goals. Rangers will likely get back to the SPL even stronger as they would have still been fighting to clear the manageable debt they had for a decade, but now they have no debt and will no doubt make bigger signings when they do get back. Will they have their signing ban lifted. Will the SPL compensate those clubs for the down turn in income without Rangers in the SPL, mind you all the SPL clubs chose to throw them out collectively, which in hindsight may not have been the right decision, although to all it did seem correct at the time.

Rangers were insolvent and bust even before taking the potential liabilities from the tax case into account.

The decision to form a newco was taken by Rangers/Charles Green, not the SPL, and its because they are a newco that they are not in the SPL.

[MarkD]

Firstly the liquidators of old Rangers have no call on the money. The money was paid by Rangers (or MIH) into a trust and (the way these things normally operate) this is an irrevocable payment. So in theory the trustee could call for repayment of the loans, but what would they do with the money then? The objectives of an "Employee Benefit Trust" are to benefit employees so all the trustee can do is find another way of benefiting the employees in question.

Secondly it has never been alleged that EBT's are illegal. There's even legislation governing how they are taxed (the company doesn't get a tax deduction until the payment is taxed in hand of the employee). The issues were only (i) whether Rangers had done their paperwork correctly and (ii) whether HMRC could claim the arrangements were a sham. Obviously they lost both of these points, at least so far.

Thirdly the point as to what precipitated Rangers insolvency. Well as I read it at the time, HMRC told Whyte that even if they lost the case they would appeal indefinitely (in my opinion an unlawful abuse of public money but that's another matter), so Whyte was left with the situation that he could recapitalise Rangers only for HMRC to take all the money anyway. Nobody in their right mind is going to put money into a company under those circumstances hence liquidation become inevitable.