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CaleyHedgehog

Not usually one for political chat but.....

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What a weekend. First Caley Thistle's great win last night and now Jeremy Corbyn has won the Labour leadership election. Looking forward to having the Labour party back where it belongs on the LEFT, and for people in Scotland to have a left wing alternative to the SNP without the constant threat of independence being forced upon us. Until now I've been so disillusioned by all the parties in recent years. I'd better remember to buy a lottery ticket to see if the joy continues.

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I wonder if Corbyn's election will have that much impact on Scottish politics.  What the SNP have done rather successfully is to persuade a generally left of centre Scottish electorate that they will have a greater chance of a left of centre Government if Scotland is independent.  I am sure they will argue that a more left wing labour party stands even less chance of winning a UK election and that therefore there is even more reason for left wing voters in Scotland to vote SNP.

Added to which, Corbyn is not the leader of the Scottish Party.  Dugdale is and she is clearly some way to the right of Corbyn.  It will be fascinating to see how changes in the Labour party at a UK level impact at a Scottish level, but I really can't see the Labour parties achieving the kind of stability and clear policy position required to make any kind of recovery in Scotland in time for the Holyrood elections next year.

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Yes, the Scottish people may want a left wing government, but 55% of them do not feel that independence would be good for Scotland.

Oh, and I won a tenner on my lottery lucky dip tonight.

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Scottish Labour is indeed more right wing than Uk Labour. It is nowhere near a credible Left alternative to the SNP. Quite the opposite. Ironically, at a point now where Uk Labour's leadership has more ideals that may appear more attractive to voters in Scotland, Dugdale has to distance herself from the "London Branch Office" tag which they have created for themselves and she will be keen to emphasise their "Scottish" Labour brand to appease those who feel they are run for and from London

"55% of them do not feel that independence would be good for Scotland".. When questioned on independence, current polling indicates 53% of Scottish voters would vote Yes, this has been the trend in all polling since the referendum

Corbyn has been and will continue to be assassinated by the (mainly) right wing media, embedded Blairism has proved hard to shift within the party and it looks like it will be a divisive period over the next few years, making it hard to gain consensus and undermining any sense of true opposition. Middle England won't be won back with a veer to the left, the result will be further Conservative dominance and indeed the SNP and pro-independence parties will cease this as an opportunity to nail home the rhetoric that their path is the only path that can take Scotland away from this perennial Tory dominance and their evidently cruel and morally bankrupt approach to the those less fortunate

Edited by bobbyjag

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"Current polling" - according to yesterday's and today's papers - is most recently showing 52% NO 48% yes.

The poll also indicates that 59% believe that the notion of a second referendum should not be in the next SNP manifesto and 64% believe that referenda should genuinely be once in a generation.

Supporters of separation should perhaps remember that they wanted the first one, they chose the timing, they chose the question, they chose the rules.... and they still lost. And if there were to be a second referendum, when would the third one be. Because if Yes lost, they would presumably want yet another bash. And if they won, well if they got another bite at the cherry why should the other side not as well. There seems to be this unfortunate assumption that the settled will of the Scottish people amounts to Yes fluking it by one vote on any one of several occasions.

Oh... and by the way.... among Yes voters a year ago.... 24% of them "can't remember" who they voted for in the May General Election:lol:

What a political profundity and maturity is to be found among the schemes of Glasgow and Dundee.... cities which should perhaps just organise their own second referenda since they claim to be so independence minded!

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Glasgow and Dundee could declare themselves independent people's republics. It would instantly reduce the rest of Scotland's benefits budget, and give the west coast media what they've always wanted - a new football league consisting entirely of Celtic and Rangers. :wink:

Edited by AlexJones
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With attention focused on Corbyn and the rather extraordinary goings on in the Labour Party, it has almost escaped the attention of the media and the public at large that the SNP have announced that provision for a 2nd independence referendum will be in the SNP manifesto for next year's Holyrood election.  Never mind about the talk before last September of this being a once in a generation / lifetime thing; never mind about respecting the wishes of the electorate as expressed in last years manifesto; never mind about disruption to the country which a 2nd referendum would cause and never mind about the increasing divisions which all this regressive nationalism is causing.

Instead of having a debate about the SNP's increasing ineptness in Government, this announcement ensures that independence will again be the big issue and the lack of a credible labour alternative at UK level will ensure that the SNP hammer at the message that the quickest way to get rid of austerity is for Scotland to become independent.  It will also be the quickest way to ruin Scotland's economy, but unfortunately, as the referendum and the general election demonstrated only too well, people tend to vote what they think will benefit them most in the short term and the longer term implications are ignored.  What a parcel of rogues leads our nation!

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What a weekend. First Caley Thistle's great win last night and now Jeremy Corbyn has won the Labour leadership election. Looking forward to having the Labour party back where it belongs on the LEFT, and for people in Scotland to have a left wing alternative to the SNP without the constant threat of independence being forced upon us. Until now I've been so disillusioned by all the parties in recent years. I'd better remember to buy a lottery ticket to see if the joy continues.

Have no fear that independence will be forced on anyone. It will only happen if and when a majority of the people vote for it.

On a non partisan level, whether one is a Unionist or a Nationalist, is it not extraordinary, with all that is going on across the World, that today's front pages are dominated by faux outrage over the fact the  Leader of the Opposition stood in respectful silence at a ceremony to commemorate the heroes of the Battle of Britain rather than singing a song celebrating an institution he makes no secret he has no time or regard for..

Whatever one's view if the United Kingdom surely the anthem of a country should be a homage to the nation and it's people rather than the glorification of a discredited institution and an unjustifiably privileged individual...

Not my man or my political party at all but credit to him for his lack of hypocrisy....

Edited by Kingsmills
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With attention focused on Corbyn and the rather extraordinary goings on in the Labour Party, it has almost escaped the attention of the media and the public at large that the SNP have announced that provision for a 2nd independence referendum will be in the SNP manifesto for next year's Holyrood election.  Never mind about the talk before last September of this being a once in a generation / lifetime thing; never mind about respecting the wishes of the electorate as expressed in last years manifesto; never mind about disruption to the country which a 2nd referendum would cause and never mind about the increasing divisions which all this regressive nationalism is causing.

Instead of having a debate about the SNP's increasing ineptness in Government, this announcement ensures that independence will again be the big issue and the lack of a credible labour alternative at UK level will ensure that the SNP hammer at the message that the quickest way to get rid of austerity is for Scotland to become independent.  It will also be the quickest way to ruin Scotland's economy, but unfortunately, as the referendum and the general election demonstrated only too well, people tend to vote what they think will benefit them most in the short term and the longer term implications are ignored.  What a parcel of rogues leads our nation!

They of course could have relieved the Scottish electorate of some of the effects of austerity by using their powers to increase Income Tax or by removing the Council Tax freeze, but for reasons best known to themselves, have failed to do so. How they would avoid even more stringent austerity in a separate Scotland with the one big trump card they've been banging on about since the 70s - the oil - terminally knackered is anybody's guess.

On the other hand, if we did have a second referendum, maybe 24% of first time round yes voters would "forget" what they had done and vote NO this time:lol:

And presumably what Kingsmills means by separation only happening "when a majority of the people vote for it", is potentially once, by a single vote and irrespective of on how many previous occasions they had been told NO... at which point the decision would be irreversible and they would stop holding votes for ever.

The current scenario is hopelessly loaded towards the separatists because all they need to do is to fluke it once by a hairsbreadth and Scots are doomed to returning, for all time, to the failed state from which they profited so much by moving onwards and upwards from in 1707.

Edited by Charles Bannerman
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Very eloquently put, Mr Bannerman. The system is indeed very biased towards the separatists.

On a good note, I found out when I went to collect my lottery winnings that you now get £25 for 3 numbers. I'm rich.

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Not my man or my political party at all but credit to him for his lack of hypocrisy....

Alas, he may turn out to be a hypocrite after all  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34263447

And on that subject, how do the nationalists feel about seeing Sturgeon singing the anthem recently, happily trading her principles to avoid losing a few votes.  A God she doesn't believe in, a privileged, unelected monarch that goes against all her beliefs, praising of a country she doesn't want to be part of.  And that's even before the bit about crushing rebellious Scots!

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Very eloquently put, Mr Bannerman. The system is indeed very biased towards the separatists.

On a good note, I found out when I went to collect my lottery winnings that you now get £25 for 3 numbers. I'm rich.

Wait until you win again in the post-separation Lotto. You'll be lucky to get a couple of Groats for the jackpot (which you could probably still trade in for a couple of dozen barrels of oil!)

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On a non partisan level, whether one is a Unionist or a Nationalist, is it not extraordinary, with all that is going on across the World, that today's front pages are dominated by faux outrage over the fact the  Leader of the Opposition stood in respectful silence at a ceremony to commemorate the heroes of the Battle of Britain rather than singing a song celebrating an institution he makes no secret he has no time or regard for..

Whatever one's view if the United Kingdom surely the anthem of a country should be a homage to the nation and it's people rather than the glorification of a discredited institution and an unjustifiably privileged individual...

Not my man or my political party at all but credit to him for his lack of hypocrisy....

It is interesting that Corbyn has now said that he will sing the anthem in future.  Clearly someone has had a word in his ear.  The trouble with people who obstinately defy convention because of their principles is that they become so focused on their own point of view that they lose sight of how their behaviour is viewed by others.  It was appropriate to sing the national anthem because the point of it being part of the ceremony was to actively demonstrate the participants' allegiance to their country and their respect for those who gave their lives in fighting for their country.  The words are irrelevant in this context.  The anthem (however inappropriate the words may be) is the symbol of the nation and failing to sing it is seen as failing to show loyalty and respect.

I happen to think the National Anthem is dreadful both from a musical sense and in the words.  What Corbyn could usefully do is to put a motion to the House that the Anthem is no longer appropriate and that it should be replaced by something rather more inclusive and rousing.  The only thing the anthem has in its favour is that it is marginally less awful and inappropriate than "Flower of Scotland".

The anthem faux pas is a symptom of why Corbyn is a liability for the Labour Party.  Whilst I can respect his principled position on a number of issues, he clearly does not get that those in positions of responsibility constantly have to compromise in order to engage with those of widely different viewpoints and to move forward. There is a gulf between him and the parliamentary party as a whole but he would be wrong to assume that means they are any less passionate than he is about social justice.  Its all very well being principled, but politics is less about principles and more about understanding what is possible.  Had the labour party elected the other Miliband last time round, we would probably now have a Labour Government.

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Not my man or my political party at all but credit to him for his lack of hypocrisy....

Alas, he may turn out to be a hypocrite after all  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34263447

And on that subject, how do the nationalists feel about seeing Sturgeon singing the anthem recently, happily trading her principles to avoid losing a few votes.  A God she doesn't believe in, a privileged, unelected monarch that goes against all her beliefs, praising of a country she doesn't want to be part of.  And that's even before the bit about crushing rebellious Scots!

I see, a year on from the Referendum and in the best traditions of aggressive nationalism, that they're making a huge resentment-stirring song and dance about the anniversary of a defeat.

Yesterday, September 18th, Holyrood seems to have been marched on by yet another Nationalist rentamob, again misappropriating our country's flag as representing their own minority view. Meanwhile in Inverness, some poor sad soul has been sticking up brand new "Yes" placards in Hilton. (Maybe it was Councillor Richard Laird, sent on a Party penance for not only having, but actually daring to express a thought of his own about an Inverness City Council?)

It's all rather like the Germans solemnly revisiting the failed 1923 Munich Putsch every November until the Third Reich became decidedly unfashionable.

And of course Alex Salmond, still blaming the BBC for that "stab in the back", just had to take the opportunity to relaunch his book, I believe with a change of title from "Mein Banff" to "Yes Scotland: My Part In Its Downfall".

In fact he even enlisted Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh, that former Conservative candidate and also ex-member of the Labour Party who, third time lucky, became an SNP MP in May without even having to move on again to try the LibDems or the Greens.

All now seems to be forgiven, even though Ms Ahmed-Sheikh, during her 20 year Tory career, famously described Salmond as "hopelessly naïve" and guilty of "unpardonable folly". (At least she's got something right!)Because the other day she got sent to the Bahamas to get that celebrity patriot and voluntary exile Shurr Shonn Connery to  endorse Eck's book.

Meanwhile those of us stuck in Austerity Scotland look set to be subjected to this orgy of Nationalist self-pity every September 18th for the foreseeable future. Maybe Nicola Sturgeon will even add God Save The Queen as part of the official commemoration!

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Keep at it Caleyhedgehog.

 

A bit off topic maybe but it lightens the load on the political thing which is getting tedious for us here I Canada  with a General Election in progress and it's already been running for something like 6 weeks with no end in sight until the 19 October.

My point? Just keep buying the tickets dearie. I once won $65 on a huge lottery called the 649 here. The next winner with one other correct number up on the ticket would  probably have been for a million dollars....yes, it was that close.

So you just never know who you are going to meet next or what will befall you when Lady Luck is beside you. The last time I flew up to Inverness from Gatwick was in 2008 and found myself sitting beside a stradavarius-playing concert master  who was going up to Cawdor Castle play for the Duchess at  a party or Soiree she was throwing. I had a great conversation with a very engaging gentleman with no arrogance or "side" to him at all and the time just flew by.

 

Oops the time is flying and I must get out the door to buy my 649 Lottery ticket today. Have a great day

Bughtmaster also claims that we met on an airfield in North Germany when we were both watching a football match with the team from my RAF station against his station which was situated  farther North West of us.  But I can't remember what he looks like so........but I do remember talking to a young man at that venue for sure.Next time I am over your way we can reminisce in person .

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Richard Laird is one of those Councillors (along with Donnie Kerr) who's entire raison d'etre appears to be to get his picture in the Inverness Courier every week. They probably do a lot of good, but boy am I tired of seeing their mugs!

 

Edited by AlexJones
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Richard Laird is one of those Councillors (along with Donnie Kerr) who's entire raison d'etre appears to be to get his picture in the Inverness Courier every week. They probably do a lot of good, but boy am I tired of seeing their mugs!

 

I would imagine that Donnie Kerr would have a lot less time now to appear in the Courier since he will be very busy in his new full time day job as a body double for Jeremy Corbyn:blink:

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When questioned on independence, current polling indicates 53% of Scottish voters would vote Yes, this has been the trend in all polling since the referendum

 

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/referendum/705266/want-another-referendum-69-told-us-no/

So that'll be 53% of the mere 31% who actually want another referendum (see link). I make that about 16%. 69%, according to this survey, would much rather if the SNP would actually try to extricate Scotland's affairs from the mess they've got them into thanks to being totally distracted by their single obsession and accept that NO means NO.

Oh well... that'll be the PandJ blackballed from the Gelluns now:lol:

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When questioned on independence, current polling indicates 53% of Scottish voters would vote Yes, this has been the trend in all polling since the referendum

 

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/referendum/705266/want-another-referendum-69-told-us-no/

So that'll be 53% of the mere 31% who actually want another referendum (see link). I make that about 16%. 69%, according to this survey, would much rather if the SNP would actually try to extricate Scotland's affairs from the mess they've got them into thanks to being totally distracted by their single obsession and accept that NO means NO.

Oh well... that'll be the PandJ blackballed from the Gelluns now:lol:

Wow Charles, well played! You're onto a winner there!

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/press-journal-embarrass-themselves.html

Ya feckin nugget! :lol::lol::lol:

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Hmm.  Not exactly impartial stuff.  The interesting point is that since the referendum, polls have shown a remarkable consistency and all this hype that the momentum of the independence movement is surging  forward to an inevitable conclusion is shown to be false.  For all the continuing austerity and the SNP's success in delivering a Conservative Government to blame for everything, the independence juggernaut is actually struggling to make any further progress.  This explains the increasing desperation of the SNP leadership to find some excuse to get a referendum as soon as possible.  They know the not only is it getting harder to convince new people to the merits of independence but that the more people think about the issues, the more they realise that Scotland is better off as part of a wider UK.

The latest nonsense is Sturgeon's ludicrous response to the quite reasonable statements by the leaders of the Scottish Labour and Lib Dem parties that their members should be free to campaign for independence if that is what they believe in. What scares her so much is that people will increasingly come to the realisation that you can actually have some sympathy or even strong support for the concept of independence, but at the same time be a member or supporter of a party which actually has a coherent political ideology beyond the single issue of independence.  People will start to leave the SNP when they come to realise that other parties have much more to offer in terms of providing effective Government.

Sturgeon's panicked response is to suggest that because Dugdale and Rennie are opening their doors to pro-independence supporters, it is logical for them to support Sturgeon's call for an early referendum. There is absolutely no way that follows!  What Dugdale and Rennie, as responsible leaders, will actually do is to respect the result of the referendum.  Sturgeon should follow their lead.

At least all this continuing nonsense about another referendum deflects attention from the SNP's record in Government and the fact that they have no constructive plans to use the additional powers that actually have already been devolved to the Scottish Government, let alone the ones which soon will be.  We can now expect the SNP to turn their attention to the EU referendum.  Whilst wishing to remain in the EU, the SNP will be hoping for a vote to withdraw as this will give them the excuse for a 2nd indy referendum.  Don't, therefore, expect the SNP to cooperate with the wider UK campaign to remain in the EU.

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Hmm.  Not exactly impartial stuff.  The interesting point is that since the referendum, polls have shown a remarkable consistency and all this hype that the momentum of the independence movement is surging  forward to an inevitable conclusion is shown to be false.  For all the continuing austerity and the SNP's success in delivering a Conservative Government to blame for everything, the independence juggernaut is actually struggling to make any further progress.  This explains the increasing desperation of the SNP leadership to find some excuse to get a referendum as soon as possible.  They know the not only is it getting harder to convince new people to the merits of independence but that the more people think about the issues, the more they realise that Scotland is better off as part of a wider UK.

The latest nonsense is Sturgeon's ludicrous response to the quite reasonable statements by the leaders of the Scottish Labour and Lib Dem parties that their members should be free to campaign for independence if that is what they believe in. What scares her so much is that people will increasingly come to the realisation that you can actually have some sympathy or even strong support for the concept of independence, but at the same time be a member or supporter of a party which actually has a coherent political ideology beyond the single issue of independence.  People will start to leave the SNP when they come to realise that other parties have much more to offer in terms of providing effective Government.

Sturgeon's panicked response is to suggest that because Dugdale and Rennie are opening their doors to pro-independence supporters, it is logical for them to support Sturgeon's call for an early referendum. There is absolutely no way that follows!  What Dugdale and Rennie, as responsible leaders, will actually do is to respect the result of the referendum.  Sturgeon should follow their lead.

At least all this continuing nonsense about another referendum deflects attention from the SNP's record in Government and the fact that they have no constructive plans to use the additional powers that actually have already been devolved to the Scottish Government, let alone the ones which soon will be.  We can now expect the SNP to turn their attention to the EU referendum.  Whilst wishing to remain in the EU, the SNP will be hoping for a vote to withdraw as this will give them the excuse for a 2nd indy referendum.  Don't, therefore, expect the SNP to cooperate with the wider UK campaign to remain in the EU.

SNP's success in delivering a Conservative Government     Labour lost 40 seats to SNP, Tories have a majority of 12 seat majority. If all SNP seats were Labour they'd still have 12 seat majority.

People will start to leave the SNP     Mmmm hmmmm

Sturgeon's panicked response      Really? Panicked? You've never met oor Nicola!

 additional powers        Such as?

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Interesting to observe that when these people feel contradicted or challenged, they consistently resort to holding up the paranoid outpourings of Separatist "bloggers" as the absolute truth whilst reverting to the feral behaviour of the nationalist street mob.

Better get that second referendum in soon chaps -  before too many more of your supporters tumble to the fact that the backside has actually fallen out of the oil thing!

Edited by Charles Bannerman

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I don't think it will take a brain  like Einstein to realise, there isn't enough cash to finance separation.

Not to mention currency, imports and welfare payments. The whole idea of going it alone is a mess. Whether you are red or blue or support Corbyn, or not, doesn't matter,

IT WOULD JUST MEAN TAX PAYERS WILL HAVE TO FOOT THE  BILL UNTIL THE IMF OR SUCH LIKE TAKE OVER AND CONTROL SCOTLAND

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