Disillusioned Or Not? (merged)

[Georgeios]

Excuse my ignorance but what is the qualifications/requirements for someone to be on the BoD? I take it they don't get paid?

They do get paid.. alot, but also have to have loads of cash with them and buy in to the club also... Im lead to beleve anyway... so as much as they get paid, they contrabute to the club "Invest" so its in there best interests to do a good job... I think sir sugers your man!!

[CaleyD]

The ICT Board is made up of a maximum of 6 Directors, 3 of which are appointed by Tullochs for as long as they maintain a 25% or larger shareholding. Tulloch also have the power to appoint the Club Chairman.

Beyond that there is no longer any qualifying criteria....other than not being a bankrupt or having some other charge hanging over you that prevents you holding such a position.

As there's only 6 board members and Tullochs have 3 then nothing can be carried without their say-so, and as Tulloch also control the Chair, they have the casting vote and can carry any decision they wish.

The only Director that gets paid is the Director of Football.

[Kirishima]

Pre SPL everything was sunshine and light. Pre-Brewster return infact it was all sweetness and light.

Then, fans began to be critical - the club became more insular - things escalated - even more insular - fans even more critical - and so on. The problem is that the club were unwilling to accept any criticism and/or respond to it. The only time they did was to chastise us, like naughty schoolboys/girls.

Im not telling anyone what they dont know, but it's time for a real change of heart, a shift in focus, a clean slate. This can be achieved in many ways, but at the very least they need to communicate.

How many fans really can say they feel wanted, "part" of the club, rather than just suffered. And im not expecting the club to remember people's birthdays or shake every hand, but c'mon, they do next to nothing.

There's only so long they can use Boardroom Banter as an example of how they communicate with the fans, heck, they censor more than China does!

[Mike]

The ICT Board is made up of a maximum of 6 Directors, 3 of which are appointed by Tullochs for as long as they maintain a 25% or larger shareholding. Tulloch also have the power to appoint the Club Chairman.

Beyond that there is no longer any qualifying criteria....other than not being a bankrupt or having some other charge hanging over you that prevents you holding such a position.

As there's only 6 board members and Tullochs have 3 then nothing can be carried without their say-so, and as Tulloch also control the Chair, they have the casting vote and can carry any decision they wish.

The only Director that gets paid is the Director of Football.

Do we know how the shareholding is broken down? I take it Tullochs are the major shareholder? Seems a lot if you only need 25% sharehold to get 50% of the directorship. What would it take to get a shift of the power base, new major investment? Do the supporters trust not have a %?

[L_G]

The ICT Board is made up of a maximum of 6 Directors, 3 of which are appointed by Tullochs for as long as they maintain a 25% or larger shareholding. Tulloch also have the power to appoint the Club Chairman.

Beyond that there is no longer any qualifying criteria....other than not being a bankrupt or having some other charge hanging over you that prevents you holding such a position.

As there's only 6 board members and Tullochs have 3 then nothing can be carried without their say-so, and as Tulloch also control the Chair, they have the casting vote and can carry any decision they wish.

The only Director that gets paid is the Director of Football.

Do we know how the shareholding is broken down? I take it Tullochs are the major shareholder? Seems a lot if you only need 25% sharehold to get 50% of the directorship. What would it take to get a shift of the power base, new major investment? Do the supporters trust not have a %?

Supporters' Trust have a voting right of 10% as well as just over ?10,000 worth of shares.

[Johnboy]

Regards disillusionment resulting from a lack of communication within ICT, does anyone else feel the wall of silence surrounding Fortress TCS is a somewhat ominous?

[Scotty]

cant say I am happy with the silence but many are on holiday right now and a date I keep hearing for various things to be set for next season (like budgets etc) is the 22nd which is Monday ... I will give it a few more days

[highlandexile]

The board are meeting today so I would expect there to be much more info from the club early next week.

[gordyfromsneck]

Didn't write, didn't phone! They just don't care.<sob>

Get real! There are people with work to do over there, they cant tell us everytime someone goes to the bog! We have had news on Coxy's signing, the BOD changes, friendly fixtures, and the league dates. Surely that is enough to keep us going!

[Sorted]

Didn't write, didn't phone! They just don't care.<sob>

Get real! There are people with work to do over there, they cant tell us everytime someone goes to the bog! We have had news on Coxy's signing, the BOD changes, friendly fixtures, and the league dates. Surely that is enough to keep us going!

Gordy, it appears to me that unless some are sent individual messages asking for their opinion, aggreement or sanction then they aren't happy. There are plenty of legitimate reasons why any business, even a community football club, can't debate every choice they have to make on a public forum. Like you, I am quite prepared to accept that this is the case.

Back on topic, I am pretty disillusioned. Not so much with the club but with those that see it as their sole aim in life to run it down at every opportunity. Some on line posters on sites like CTO are more predatory than the tabloid press at their worst, longing for weakness and ready to pounce at the slightest opportunity. it's not unique to ICT but we certainly seem to have more than our fair share of malcontents!

[HumbersideDude]

Didn't write, didn't phone! They just don't care.<sob>

Get real! There are people with work to do over there, they cant tell us everytime someone goes to the bog! We have had news on Coxy's signing, the BOD changes, friendly fixtures, and the league dates. Surely that is enough to keep us going!

So, in nearly 4 weeks since relegation the board have told us;

Lee Cox signing- 1 signing so far, and announcing 2 on trial in nearly 4 weeks whilst most of our competitors have been snapping up players and I asume the better players that are available.

BOD changes-giving out new titles hardly constitutes ground breaking work.

Friendly fixtures- I found the first 2 friendlies on SFA website a week before officially anounced,surely not beyond the board to announce something like that on official site. At least that would have been something for the fans.

League dates/fixtures- Nothing to do with the board. Released on SFL and BBC websites. Board could hardly take credit for releasing them.

I have not really been critical of the board in the past(except incompetence over sacking Brewster) but even my patience is wearing thin with their apparent non action and lack of public relations.

[Sorted]

Didn't write, didn't phone! They just don't care.<sob>

Get real! There are people with work to do over there, they cant tell us everytime someone goes to the bog! We have had news on Coxy's signing, the BOD changes, friendly fixtures, and the league dates. Surely that is enough to keep us going!

So, in nearly 4 weeks since relegation the board have told us;

Lee Cox signing- 1 signing so far, and announcing 2 on trial in nearly 4 weeks whilst most of our competitors have been snapping up players and I asume the better players that are available.

BOD changes-giving out new titles hardly constitutes ground breaking work.

Friendly fixtures- I found the first 2 friendlies on SFA website a week before officially anounced,surely not beyond the board to announce something like that on official site. At least that would have been something for the fans.

League dates/fixtures- Nothing to do with the board. Released on SFL and BBC websites. Board could hardly take credit for releasing them.

I have not really been critical of the board in the past(except incompetence over sacking Brewster) but even my patience is wearing thin with their apparent non action and lack of public relations.

Understand that you want news as we all do, but could you give me an example of the information you expect the club to release in public that they are, on purpose, choosing not to? News for the sake of news is very "new Labour" and is now recognised as such by most.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Sorted

[highlandexile]

I really can't see what exactly the board are meant to have been communicating right now other than what has already been communicated.

Until they can see what income they are likely to receive through season ticket sales (which they have communicated very well with) and renewal of corporate sonsorship (which they have written to all of last years sponsors to encourange renewal), there really is little up to this stage the board could communicate. Members of the board have been working hard to get new income streams into the club and now after todays board meeting they should be in a better position to see what direction the club can take regarding new signings etc.

Would people rather they go out spending money they don't have and be in a position where the club folds due to excesive debt or wait till they can establsh a realisitic budget.

I am quite sure all will become clear next week.

[Kirishima]

I promised to be blunt and direct on this thread and this thread alone, so here it is.

Some people would like to see a bit of contrition from the board. I think its owed. They have been incredibly aloof and the inability of them to even eat a crumb of humble pie sticks in some people's throats.

DFS spitefully attacks DJS and those around him and the club seem to think that is par for the course. The club have got themselves dragged into the courts, but hey ho, new titles for all is the order of the day. Might be dropping 200k, the 200k many were banking on giving us the advantage in the SFL, ach, money isnt everything. The club is relegated, but let's just keep all the high-earners upstairs, but lets get shot of ourpromising players to our rivals, nae bother. Our man with the plan is away at the U21 championships, when others are beginning pre-season training - its ok, its good for us, Scotland, everyone!

I think people are beginning to really think that the board is not worth their salt. That is not healthy. But alas, the board needs not the people, just the cash from the season tickets.

Sorry, but it's a football club, not a lawyers office, and we aren't secretaries.

[Sorted]

I promised to be blunt and direct on this thread and this thread alone, so here it is.

Some people would like to see a bit of contrition from the board. I think its owed. They have been incredibly aloof and the inability of them to even eat a crumb of humble pie sticks in some people's throats.

DFS spitefully attacks DJS and those around him and the club seem to think that is par for the course. The club have got themselves dragged into the courts, but hey ho, new titles for all is the order of the day. Might be dropping 200k, the 200k many were banking on giving us the advantage in the SFL, ach, money isnt everything. The club is relegated, but let's just keep all the high-earners upstairs, but lets get shot of ourpromising players to our rivals, nae bother. Our man with the plan is away at the U21 championships, when others are beginning pre-season training - its ok, its good for us, Scotland, everyone!

I think people are beginning to really think that the board is not worth their salt. That is not healthy. But alas, the board needs not the people, just the cash from the season tickets.

Sorry, but it's a football club, not a lawyers office, and we aren't secretaries.

Tar them, cover them with feathers and hang them off the bridge? Dress them in sack's and march them down Academy St whilst crowds gather to pelt them with stones? Which would you prefer?

Once suitably humiliated/chastised they can then get back to their day jobs and leave the running of the club to you and the rest.

One question, who are all "high earners upstairs"? I know Lizzie works on the first floor but wouldn't think she comes into this category!

[Kirishima]

Not sure you even read my post, but anyway. No that's not what I was asking for, "a bit of contrition" was what i said. And upstairs, for most, is analogy for executive management, so again, not a case of reading, but reading things into it, Sorted.

Now that's clarified, whats your point?

[absent friend]

I promised to be blunt and direct on this thread and this thread alone, so here it is.

Some people would like to see a bit of contrition from the board. I think its owed.

Good for you and the reason they owe YOU this is...??

They have been incredibly aloof and the inability of them to even eat a crumb of humble pie sticks in some people's throats.

I assume you want them to say sorry that we were relegated by 2 goals.

DFS spitefully attacks DJS and those around him and the club seem to think that is par for the course.

Big mistake and perhaps highlighted the pressure being felt at that time.

The club have got themselves dragged into the courts, but hey ho, new titles for all is the order of the day.

Don't see the connection between the two events - read Scotty's post on the new titles - makes sensible reading

Might be dropping 200k, the 200k many were banking on giving us the advantage in the SFL, ach, money isnt everything.

Have we not retained this money for this event?

The club is relegated, but let's just keep all the high-earners upstairs

Which ones?,

but lets get shot of ourpromising players to our rivals, nae bother.

One of the offloaded players I, for one, am happy that he is no longer attached to this club

Our man with the plan is away at the U21 championships, when others are beginning pre-season training - its ok, its good for us, Scotland, everyone!

?????

I think people are beginning to really think that the board is not worth their salt. That is not healthy.

That is on hold meantime by most fans.

But alas, the board needs not the people, just the cash from the season tickets.

How else do we compete for players

Sorry, but it's a football club, not a lawyers office, and we aren't secretaries.

Don't understand your sentiment here although I do have some sympathies with the tone of your post. Frustration I hope

[Scotty]

I cant believe so many people are willing to jump to conclusions about the contents of the inveitable restructuring that has taken place at ICT before we know all the details !

Yes, I know it has been a particularly bad year just past, I agree that there are a lot of things that went on that give us cause for concern, upset or anger, not least of which was our eventual relegation. I also think that many things were said by a lot of people - fans and club alike - that with the benefit of hindsight they probably wish they could take back. All in all, probably the darkest year in our short history. However, the simple fact of the matter is that we do not know the full details of just how the club has been restructured in the last 5 weeks .....

Do those bleating on about "high earners" know for a fact that the likes of Grassa or Mike Smith wont be taking pay cuts or changes in job titles as part of the restructuring process? Do those belting on about playing budgets know for a fact that TB doesnt already know what he has at his disposal? Do those who talk about him being in Sweden while others are signing players know that it is not just him but several managers who are in Sweden as part of a mandatory portion of their UEFA badge? Do those who are suddenly being fed more information than ever before by "sources" (from either side) ever stop to consider that they may be getting "the party line" from the club or a skewed viewpoint from disgruntled employees or ex-employees?

As I said before, I will wait until the club give their side before passing judgement in full. I have received so many snippets of things from all sides - much more than I normally get - and much of it is contradictory. It will all come out in the wash eventually and once it does, I will know who has given me the "gen" and who has fed me the "bull" and that will help me decide my own reaction....................

[Kirishima]

Phew!

The club dont owe me anything. I did use the keyword "some people." What it comes down to is that if the board were perhaps a little bit more communicative, particularly after relegation, with some sort of statement, comment or otherwise, this wouldnt be an issue. But it's the apparent blase nature that comes across, whether it is a fact or not. 2 goals has nothing to do with it.

Look, i realise that there are 2 camps here, the "wait and see and let's look for the positives in the meantime" and then there's "IHE and his dour doomsayers, with much wailing and gnashing of teeth." I would reaaly prefer to be in the first camp, truly I would. But my optimism is all but chipped away, sorry but that's my prerogative.

[Scotty]

no there are three camps ......as always

there are the "doom-sayers" as you call them, there are the "rosy-garden" brigade and finally the "wait and see mob" which I would say is more in the middle ...

I am part of the wait and see mob I think ... I am so confused by conflicting pieces of unofficial information that I have received that it is inconceivable for me to do anything but wait for the official word so I can process all the little snippets alongside the official line and see which scenario makes most sense to me.

In the end, I think the truth will - as usual - be somewhere in the middle. The club will tell some, some of what we have heard from others will be true and there will also be embellishments or bulls*** on all sides ....

[absent friend]

Phew!

The club dont owe me anything. I did use the keyword "some people." What it comes down to is that if the board were perhaps a little bit more communicative, particularly after relegation, with some sort of statement, comment or otherwise, this wouldnt be an issue. But it's the apparent blase nature that comes across, whether it is a fact or not. 2 goals has nothing to do with it.

Look, i realise that there are 2 camps here, the "wait and see and let's look for the positives in the meantime" and then there's "IHE and his dour doomsayers, with much wailing and gnashing of teeth." I would reaaly prefer to be in the first camp, truly I would. But my optimism is all but chipped away, sorry but that's my prerogative.

Just to establish my reason for the reply and taking your above post as a template:

'I think its owed' are your words hence my emphisis on the I.

The 2 goals, in my opinion have a lot to do with it as this margin sent us out of the SPL and created much of the neggies being posted.

Like Scotty, I would also suggest there are three camps and most are in the middle one but I have sympathy for some who wander into the first camp on reading the neggie posts on here.

I would also agree totally that it is your perrogative to be frustrated with the current situation, (join the clan) and I can only hope, after this week-end, we can begin to see a way forward. I think the activity in Dingwall and Dundee has also created a feel that we, if anything, are going backwards but they are looking towards the new season and this is difficult to accept at this time.

.

[Kirishima]

Very true Absent friend and Scotty. I think that the situation will be much clearer a few games into the season. A few things I feel positive about to arrest my descent:

TB and MM 100%

Simon Cox

No firesale on the horizon

No debt

Promotion challenge

Derbies

This website and the posters

The drive for ICT volunteers.

There! Im not all doom and gloom :D

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

1) This is not a wind up - This is truly from the heart - and I am actually not encouraged that many understand where I am coming from 2) I said "feck this forum" because I feel that many stick their heads in the sand and go overboard with the loyalty nonsense.

I have always been a "wait and see" man but so much has happened over the last couple of seasons that loyalty and patience is wearing thin. I am not the doomsayer either - I am saying my peice in my usual forthright manner - I feel that I am showing supporters that this club has developed a boundaried "wall of silence" - some honest communication is required to mend the wounds - they are still open but they should be scar tissue.

Yes - lots of things could be happening behind the scenes - both on and off the park - I wouldnt expect to be privy to them all - but I would appreciate, nay expect, a little club like ICT to be more sharing of information etc. with its fans. I would also think far higher of some of the peeple in higher positions if they a) just feckin admitted that they had got things wrong :D showed that they were learning their lessons c) even confronting, challenging or asking us for the answers OR d) actually doing something in the public eye that makes us sit up and realise what they are actually doing in the jobs they are being paid for.

From a PR perspective that is dire.

It feels to be that the DFS "rant" in January still rankles as THEY were pushed into a major turnaround. It feels a bit like they have decided to operate a closed shop in a form of self protection - in some ways an understandable defence mechanism but not in this instance.

And I even do feel disillusioned by TB - When he came in January he was a breath of fresh air - a war cry - in mny ways he probably saved a lot of peeple from an axing - He is the PR guru - where is he ? Is he silent becos he is busy doing other things ? Is he disillusioned ?

[Scotty]

Cant disagree with what you say IHE. In a lot of your posts, especially more recently, JM has been coming through rather than his IHE alter-ego and that is when people should sit up and take notice. I certainly notice it and make a point to read and re-read posts over a few times when I think its JM rather than IHE !!!

I believe I do know where you are coming from, and despite your sledgehammer approach at times, you have known for years that I respect your opinion. Despite the differences of opinion expressed on the boards, I think - with the odd exception - we are all in a bit of the same boat here ..... (HMS Sneck perhaps)

we WANT to think the best about the club

we WANT to think the best about the people who run it

we WANT to think the best about the players

we WANT to think the best about the managerial team

but circumstances make that difficult.

communication is dire between club and fans. You are spot-on. It is woeful indeed. In fact, it has been for about the last 7 years or so. In the preceding 8 years we were a smaller family and more trusting of each other, but with each passing year, less and less has been forthcoming until one day you get to a point where you become aware there are "sides" rather than a single entity and both "sides" seem to eye each other more warily as the seasons pass. I dont think we can ever go back to where we were 7 or 8 years ago, too much has been said (or not said) over the ensuing time period but maybe we can generate some positives while we are in division 1 by trying to repair some of the damage while we are out of the spotlight. If the club could improve communication (and by that extension, their PR) it would lessen the impact that even trivial matters seem to have on the support these days.

Boardroom Banter has been mentioned recently as a feeble attempt at communication but as far as I am concerned, it is a start. A start borne about by you and by Gringo Jnr inspiring me to try again. I know it avoids some issues, I know some of the answers are generic, I know some people see it as a waste of time, but every structure needs to have a first brick and hopefully this can be the brick that allows us to build increased communication. Once the talking starts, the moaning reduces, once the moaning reduces and the reasons for those moans reduces, then and only then the trust levels can begin to increase (on both sides).

I would like to see the club answer some of the questions more plainly in the coming season (like they used to) as I believe people will appreciate the honesty (they did used to admit to getting things wrong !!!). I also dont care if the club use BB to shamelessly self-promote the things they do. The articles should be part Q&A and part information about what is going on at the club .... we will be happy to promote all that is good about the club if they just open the door a little to allow that.

We as fans also have some responsibilities too though ..... it cant all be one-sided. If we are to hope for the club to be honest, or to admit mistakes, then we cannot seek to crucify people for every decision that is made, nor can we display a sense of entitlement that is out of proportion. I am not saying we should sit down, shut up and be happy with our lot, but sometimes we can all go over the score in demanding "our rights". I know we have all highlighted decisions we think are wrong, with the Brewster & Niculae sagas in particular being the focal points of a lot of anger because of what it stirred up on all sides of the debate. I would say that spirited debate on subjects as important as that is fine, as are many other debates, but I would hazard a guess that some on here would argue whether it should be red blocks or blue blocks in the urinals and make it into a diplomatic incident .... as they say, "Don't sweat the petty things" (and dont pet the sweaty things).

PS ... [off-topic]

Its not just ICT that screw up their PR ... We have just experienced it over here with Toronto FC !!!

They announced, at the end of a bad week where we had lost badly in Houston, lost to Vancouver in the Canadian championship (need to win 4-0 tonight in Montreal to win it outright), and had a few other things happening, that for no apparent reason, one of our games V New York was to be moved at short notice to last week instead of August (giving people less than 2 weeks notice to re-arrange schedules).

There was a bit of an outcry about that and then the rumours started about why. Eventually it was announced that the reason for the date change was to accomodate a friendly against Real Madrid on the date we were supposed to have played NY. the announcement came from Madrid and not Toronto !!! Then it became clear that this game was not going to be part of our season ticket package (which included one as yet un-named international friendly match) as TFC had to lay real grass down at a cost of $250,000 for this one game. People were not happy and protests started.

Eventually TFC released prices for the game. My seat has a face value of roughly $23 for each game ... my seat for the Madrid game? $140 ... almost 7 times the normal price to watch a game where "a few first team players may play for 45 minutes". A loyalty discount brings the price down to $125 but that is still 6X face value for my seat. The end result? A LOT of season ticket holders are boycotting the RM game especially as there is no committment that the likes of KaKa or Ronaldo will even make the trip. Incidentally, after all these announcements, the club then quietly announced the season ticket friendly would be against Argentinian side River Plate...... a lot of less than happy fans when that came out too.

NOW, if TFC had said to us 3 or 4 weeks ago "Your friendly will be against River Plate on this date, and then after a few days more had announced that "we have to move the NY game to <date> because we have negotiated a game with Real Madrid and the only date available is the original NY date" the comments would have been far less scathing. People would understand that the cost meant we would have to pay a premium, they would understand why the original game was moved, they would understand why the "loyalty discount" (their words, not mine) was only $15 and most would buy tickets. The information that they gave out would be exactly the same ... it is just the timing and order of it that would have made sure of a different reaction !

[luvgravy]

Let's go TFC!!!!

/ontopic