Boardroom Banter

[Scotty]

Don't think throwing in the towel is the answer BUT it could perhaps explain why the Banter from the Board is less than it was. Do you think the forum 'craic' was as personal and critical as it now is ,Scotty, in the past, when we enjoyed a better feeling of togetherness? I just get disappointed that posters feel they are a non-return valve, they can be offensive but do not expect the offended to react. We are all human, with emotions and that goes for the Board members too.

re-read my (long) post above - I think I made my opinions clear in there. In the first series of articles the board were pro-active and wanted to do this, in the second set of articles one or two of them, realising the ever deepening gulf between boardroom and fans felt they needed to do it in an effort to stem that tide. A lot of trust has been lost along the way, not necessarily trust in me personally or in Don or others who help run this site, but the site in general. When you add the increased interest in Internet comments from the media now as opposed to 5 years ago and the goldfish bowl effect of being in the SPL as well as "media rules" about what a club official can and cannot say then it all adds up to a somewhat more sterile experience.

Come on. We have to blindly follow to get a few vaguely answered questions a month? If people from the club take what is said on here seriously, surely they can see it's only a few people, with time on their hands, passing rash comments about the tiniest little things. Do you think the players come on and look at how IHE has rated them after every game? If they do, they shouldn't, unless they like a laugh. Do the board come on here to gauge fan reaction? They shouldn't, most people I know at games don't go on here, and never boo the team they clap, cheer and sigh. You can gauge the reaction in the stands.

Boardroom banter is defo a good thing. Don't believe that we have anything to do with the answers though. Like was said in a previous post, an SPL club has to watch what they say becasue of the 24 hour nature of the media. Not enough news so they make things news that really aren't. I would prefer a Butcher banter but, I can't see that happening! "Terry, Why has Esson been dropped?" "He's a cheeky wee know all". Can't see it though. Keep the boardroom banter coming. It makes an interesting read. Are you allowed to post up what questions have been avoided? That would provide a few answers as well.....

Again, I refer to my answer above. I know things are avoided ... thats just the nature of the beast. I dont delete much from the BB question threads each month so what is not answered is there for all to see and indeed, in the first few articles I submitted everything including those I knew would not be answered and the club answered to the effect that "we cannot/will-not answer that question". In the club's defence, I have to say that it was made quite clear to myself and Don when we sat down with Kenny and Grassa on my last trip home and entered into a committment that we would all try to work to make it a success that there were areas that were "off-limits". These were not new areas, they were the same areas that were defined for the first set of articles. Confidential business information, personnel issues, contracts, wages and stuff like that. Maybe it is more noticeable in the current set of articles as people have an increased sense of entitlement in thinking they have a right to know that information.

As for people reacting to comments ... its only natural. I have a fairly thick skin after doing this for 15 years but there are sometimes personal comments that have me raging. I usually go away for a couple of hours and calm down as opposed to posting in haste - although its not unknown for the odd rant to slip through :) !!! People at the club are no different. If every aspect of your working life is called into question, or your ability to do your job is questioned then you are not going to look favourably on the medium that allows that. The difference to my mind is that its not the site thats the villain, its the individual poster(s) that people should be looking at. We only provide the medium for supporters to have their say or to have a rant and we do try to stick to a set of rules that have evolved over 15 years to try and protect things from going too far and to allow both sides of the argument to emerge.

This is an extremely difficult balancing act and there are times you just cannot win. We get plenty of compliments from certain people (with experience of other clubs and their forums) who think this site is one of the best run football forums on the net, but we also get comments from the "old school" who loathe and despise anything related to so-called "new media" ... many of them havent even viewed it yet they crucify its very existence. On the fan side, we are - to some - very balanced, yet to others we are the Nazis who will stop at nothing to crush opinion or thwart free speech.

At the end of the day, we are here, whether (some) people like it or not, and we will continue to apply (and modify if necessary) our site values and rules that have evolved over the years. We will continue to take every opportunity to work with the club when they choose to work alongside us and will offer any assistance we can (an offer that has always been on the table) but we will also continue to give fans a platform to discuss all that is good, bad or indifferent about ICT.

For those who think this site is the "big bad wolf", all I would say to you is go and have a look round the Internet at some of the other football forums .... not just in Scotland, but all over. Have a look at Pie and Bovril, have a look at BigSoccer, have a look at some of the Toronto ones (red patch boys, usector etc) ... On may of those sites you may be aghast at how lax their forum rules are and you will see that we do try to keep things within the realms of civility.

It's an interesting point this. Look at Newcastle. "We don't like Allardyce" say the fans. "We want Keegan" say the fans. "We want Shearer" say the fans. I'm sure the vast majority of Newcastle fans didn't want any of these things, but it's the vocal minority whose opinions are always heard. So what do the decision makers then think? It's a tiny minority of nutters, or are these people the vocal tip of a similarly thinking iceberg? Hopefully they do realise it's (normally) the former.

The users of football forums tend to be the diehards with strong opinions.

We actually prune our membership on here to "active" members. Basically, it means that if you havent logged in in 6 months you are deleted, if you havent logged in in 3 months you are classed as inactive and not counted in our total of "active members". Because of this, I can accurately say that we tend to have around 1500 active members at any one time.

Of that 1500 - which is a good bit less than half of our diehard support - quite a few are opposition fans, quite a few might be players, officials or journalists, and quite a few are "lurkers" who regularly read the comments but do not post. I would estimate the number of people who actually post at somewhere in the few hundred mark and most of us (myself included) are quite opinionated. I have always maintained that the membership here is not representative of our entire fanbase, but it is representative of a cross section of it ... in just the same way that the members of the Trust are, or the members of the Supporters club, or the regular Hospitality customers are.

In some ways - and its kind of hard and maybe disloyal to say this - but part of me hopes that ICT take more than a year to get back up to the SPL. The SPL has been quite toxic in certain respects and a stint back in division 1 may make us realise that we all need to work together to achieve the results we all want. Perhaps a time out of the limelight will allow wounds to heal, will allow the club to return to their previous fan-focused outlook, and will allow fans to wind in that sense of entitlement, expectation or indignation that has grown over the last 5 years.

[TheKnowledge]

If people from the club take what is said on here seriously, surely they can see it's only a few people, with time on their hands, passing rash comments about the tiniest little things. Do you think the players come on and look at how IHE has rated them after every game? If they do, they shouldn't, unless they like a laugh. Do the board come on here to gauge fan reaction? They shouldn't, most people I know at games don't go on here, and never boo the team they clap, cheer and sigh. You can gauge the reaction in the stands.

It's an interesting point this. Look at Newcastle. "We don't like Allardyce" say the fans. "We want Keegan" say the fans. "We want Shearer" say the fans. I'm sure the vast majority of Newcastle fans didn't want any of these things, but it's the vocal minority whose opinions are always heard. So what do the decision makers then think? It's a tiny minority of nutters, or are these people the vocal tip of a similarly thinking iceberg? Hopefully they do realise it's (normally) the former.

I reckon clubs like Newcastle and Celtic, whom both apparently have the greatest fans in the world, suffer more than most due to supporter opinion. Well, Newcastle actually. They must have an over whelming amount of supporters that can not stand the beer belly, sky sports sound bite, Newcastle 'till I die minority. That club has bad manager, after bad manager, apart from when they get Alladyce but, he gets no time because he's not Newcastle 'till he dies. Where do the Newcastle board pick up on fan opinion? Is it message boards, phone ins on the papers? Or are the board diehard fans themselves and feel the same way as the fans?

[CaleyD]

It's interesting that the subject of fans having an opinion should come up as I was at a conference at the weekend where I attended workshops on this point and listened/discussed things with people at all levels of the sport including William Gaillard (Adviser to theUEFA President).

I was rather amazed to find that at almost every level of football (apart from one) there's a strong realisation that the reason the sport has derailed in the last 15+ years is because clubs have stopped listening to the fans, many would even go so far as to say that the healthiest thing for the sport is to have strong fan representation at EVERY level of the sport....from Supporters Clubs all the way up to National and International association level...and they are starting to work back towards that.

The ONLY people who do not accept that fans should be represented (and listened too) in the decision making processes are club owners.

Their seems to be this misconception with clubs that Supporters Trusts etc are on a mission to take over, to take control. Whilst that might be the case with some clubs, it is one which was born out of necessity, clubs going to the wall where the only people left to save them were the fans, but for many clubs all the Trusts want to do is ensure that those who invest the most in the clubs receive fair representation and that proper governance is put in place to stop individuals or small groups from sending them to the wall.

This doesn't relate solely to things that happen in the boardroom, it spreads into every single aspect of football and the community....from the support on a matchday to financial investment in the club.

So when someone tells me that as a supporter I am just there to pay my money and shout for the team on matchday and that I have no right to criticise or complain when I think things aren't being done properly then they are very likely to receive a short 2-word answer (unlike this post).

The worlds most successful clubs are fan orientated, fan lead and even fan owned...so don't tell me that we (fans as a whole) don't know what's best...the facts speak for themselves.

[absent friend]

.

So when someone tells me that as a supporter I am just there to pay my money and shout for the team on matchday and that I have no right to criticise or complain when I think things aren't being done properly then they are very likely to receive a short 2-word answer (unlike this post).

The worlds most successful clubs are fan orientated, fan lead and even fan owned..so don't tell me that we (fans as a whole) don't know what's best.... the facts speak for themselves.

Sorry but I can't agree!

This is due to the average fans lack of knowledge of the running of a business/ club composition/ financial restrictions/ target horizons/ internal politics/ etc...that's before we get to the area that we are all best at ....armchair management of the team. It would be impossible for fans to know what's best for the club. Take our financial situation now, are we going to suffer from Setanta/parachute payment/Niculae case? Have we a united management/Board agreement re current/new players? Are we able to attempt a return to SPL in the short term? How many fans can answer that?

Even a club owned by the fans have a management committee(Board) to run it and the very idea that each and every fan, of that club, can therefore impact on the management of that club is unrealistic, in my opinion!

.

[absent friend]

Sorry Don, I should have started by agreeing with your posts content - with the exception of.....the above!

So no, it is not selective editing!

[CaleyD]

I agree with what you've said to a certain extent, and of course even within a fan/member owned and operated club you still require a board etc. However, you do have a board that are made to operate within the clubs means and who's primary objective is the clubs sustainability.

The biggest flaw in the current private business set-up at many clubs is that the people with the power might be willing to spend X amount of money and that might afford them the luxury of taking certain risks....however, when it goes wrong they can quite simply walk away leaving a club lumbered with masses of debt and no means by which to cover them.

Many club owners want to have their cake and eat. They want to operate under a private business structure so they can basically do as they want, when they want and aren't answerable to anyone...however, they also want the benefits of a community focused institute where they constantly put their hand out and ask us for more and more money whenever they fail to balance the books. Could you imagine a high street retailer, a supermarket, a car showroom or whatever operating in such a way that they were losing money hand over fist and then turning to it's customers and expecting them to bail them out?

Realising just how ridiculous a situation that is doesn't require you to have the highest IQ in the world!!!

ICT used to be the kind of club where I felt they listened to the thoughts and opinions of fans and I honestly believe that our first 10 years of success were driven by those principles. From the smallest things like walking in to the club shop and someone asking you what you thought of a new piece of merchandise they were thinking of stocking to the big decisions like whether or not we should have taken the gamble on groundsharing to secure our SPL status....you always felt that your thoughts and opinions were being taken on board, even if the final decision sometimes went against your own thoughts.

I also think we saw a brief glimpse of an attempt to return to those kinds of principles when Alan Savage was Chairman when he was making attempts to accommodate people who didn't want to sit down for a whole game and wanted to bring flags and banners in to the ground.....but others seemed to have different ideas and those ideas were quickly quashed, and the Chairman's resignation followed soon after.

That's what I mean by fan representation and I'm not looking to get rid of the business structure or re-invent the wheel.....heck, I'm not even looking to get rid of the current Board or investors. With things the way they are clubs need every bit of assistance they can get from every one of their stakeholders, it's just that as things stand the fans are only considered a stakeholder when being asked to part with money for over inflated ticket prices, merchandise and whatever else the can be fleeced of.

I'm not looking for a boardroom full of fans, but it would be good if we had one that at least represented them.

[absent friend]

That's what I mean by fan representation and I'm not looking to get rid of the business structure or re-invent the wheel.....heck, I'm not even looking to get rid of the current Board or investors. With things the way they are clubs need every bit of assistance they can get from every one of their stakeholders, it's just that as things stand the fans are only considered a stakeholder when being asked to part with money for over inflated ticket prices, merchandise and whatever else the can be fleeced of.

Agree with your content BUT we have to have tickets/merchandise/catering all priced to keep us solvent and I don't think we are much different to other clubs pricing policy. I feel with a fan as a Board member we would maybe be more accepting of costings as we had a 'watching brief' via this person but the price would not move down.

I'm not looking for a boardroom full of fans, but it would be good if we had one that at least represented them.

That fan would also require to be prepared to be hard working on our behalf with the amount of knowledge he/she would have to absorb, before offering an input.

[Alex MacLeod]

We already ahve a boardroom full of fans. Every last member of the board is a fan of ICT.

[CaleyD]

If you look at all the clubs that lean more towards being "fan orientated/led" then you will find clubs that are ALL solvent, all live within their means and all have forms of governance that keep them sustainable, so the argument that this is something that fans would jeapordise is complete nonsense.

There's this perception that having fan representation is all about having someone on a Board who does nothing but complain about prices etc...that's not what it's about, it's about recognising that the fans are THE largest stakeholder and investor in any club, regardless of who owns it, and giving them their due place in the process.

I also find it rather offensive that people dismiss fans on the basis that they know nothing about running business or what it means to sit on a Board. Do you think that the people who run the thousands of businesses throughout the country don't support football teams and aren't sitting in grounds up and down the country on matchdays the same as every other fan? I could easily give a list of site users on here that are business owners, solicitors, accountants, chief executives and whatever other criteria you think a fan might need to qualify to sit on a BoD....although I think you'd be misguided in your belief that these are the only people capable of doing such a job and there's just as many manual and unskilled workers out there who could do perfectly satisfactory jobs if given the chance.

As I highlighted earlier....who was it that ran these clubs before the so-called big businessmen came along and started buying them up as some kind of status symbol? Is it pure coincidence that it was the shift away from fan/member owned/operated clubs that triggered the start of the financial meltdown that football suffered and continues to suffer from? Since 1992 50+ clubs in the UK have been in administration, a figure many times larger than it had been in the previous 15 years, or during any other period in the history of the game.

Your intimation that the current crop of Directors running the clubs in this country work, or are willing to work, harder than the fans in the stands is, IMO, quite ridiculous and reflects the attitude of the people who are trying to resist the fans voice for fear that they might just lose a little of the power that they seem so desperate to hold on to.

[CaleyD]

We already ahve a boardroom full of fans. Every last member of the board is a fan of ICT.

I've never once said that any of our Board are not a fan of the club, what I am saying is that there's insufficient fan representation and/or acknowledgement of the fans and their thoughts, opinions and ideas.

Being a fan and representing the fans are not the same thing and I don't believe for a second that you're so naive as to think they are.

[Alex MacLeod]

Now now Don. May I suggest you take the word tongue and add it in front of the word in which should be inserted in front of the word cheek. And anyway I wasn't responding to you in particular.

Edited June 9, 2009 by Alex MacLeod

[Charles Bannerman]

I have't posted much on the "ICT" forum here for some time. This is partly because of a clash of interest with my journalistic activities (especially in the "goldfish bowl" of the SPL) but also to a large extent because the tone of the whole thing has changed so much for the worse over the last five years or so that this is something I would no longer want to be associated with. However I am, belatedly, prompted to do so now by some of the content of this and other related threads.

It is a strange irony that the higher Caley Thistle went in Scottish football, the more carping, whingeing and discontented the tone of some comments became on this board. It is also worth noting a corresponding shift in the identity of the regular contributors involved over the period.

Caley Thistle has been an amazingly successful football club which took Inverness from the Highland League to the SPL in a decade, kept the city there against all expectations for five years, and did so in a manner which was within its means and leaves the club debt free. This season the club was eventually relegated by the smallest of margins (of which more in a moment.)

Inverness Caledonian Thistle has been one of the major success stories in Scottish football but yet there are still fans who appear to make it their life's mission to spread discontent, to a large extent through the medium of this forum. This has already been suggested by the likes of "absent friend" and also "mainstander" whose earlier intervention on another thread seemed to precede an unprecedented period of silence from one of the more notorious dissidents.

On this forum there has been a constant (albeit unrepresentative) stream of people who seem to think they know how to run a business better than the Board, how to run a football team better than the manager (whoever he may be) and how to play the game better than the players.

The arrogance and self satisfaction frequently shown is breathtaking! But of far greater concern is the effect that the rantings of this unrepresentative minority have had on those who are doing their best to make Caley Thistle the best they can.

In the course of business, I find myself behind the scenes at the Caledonian Stadium two or three times a week. I speak extensively to people who work for the club, on and off the field, and I can testify to the demoralising effect that the rants of a hardcore of discontented knowalls have had on these people - even though they are perfectly aware that they are simply the delusions of a disaffected rump.

It can't be very pleasant to come into your work in the morning to the awareness that a cabal of discontents, most of whom do not even have the moral courage to use their real names, continue to snipe at your best efforts and to undermine your honest attempts to do your best for Inverness football.

Now let's return to the wafer thin margin by which Caley Thistle were relegated. There must be so many factors which, if they turned out only slightly differently, would have resulted in survival. And indeed one of these must be the demoralising effect which the constant public comments of a handful of the unenlightened had on the morale of the employees at the sharp end of ICT's survival bid. Perhaps these snipers should now examine their consciences and ask what role THEY actually played in what has just happened?

Under the circumstances, the term "supporters" seems singularly inappropriate here - it might be far better to ask who the REAL "Muppets" are?

PS - anyone inclined towards the "Well I pay my money and I'm entited to my opnion" reaction need not bother responding. This argument has been well overwhelmed by the sheer crassness of what we have increasingly had inflicted on us here in recent years.

PPS - anyone tempted to suggest that I am not entitled to an opinion since I don't actually pay for entry to the ground should not bother replying either since it will be like water off a duck's back.

[Alex MacLeod]

Charles, they say the child learns more in its early years. Some of those who you refer to may well have been taught by your good self fairly recently.

Oh! and I second all you say.

[TheKnowledge]

How does negative, or positive feedback get to the club or players? Do they actually read this? The comments made on this board can't possibly play on the minds of anyone at the club. I find that so hard to believe.

I trust your getting at IHE but he's just saying what he thinks, as is everyone else.

If you go to every game or just listen on the radio, your allowed to come on here and give your opinions all the same so no-one should be deciding why one person opinion is more valued than another.

The board employed the man that is regarded as being the man that relegated us, there should be an explanation. Yes, we are debt free but, we are in division 1, and at the risk of losing quite a few of our players. Although we spent five years in the SPL, we should be starting our sixth. Maybe if the fans had been listened to, and Brew was not brought back, we would still be there. We were set up to stay SPL for the forseable future, but that solid squad was ripped up over the last two years.

Also, I thought user names were just a bit of fun, I can't see any reason for people to have to hide. Although, if I get a visit form Dougie Imrie now, i'll know why.

Andrew Masson

[Alex MacLeod]

Andrew I can agree with a lot you are saying and a lot that Charles is saying. I know for a fact people at the club read the forums, or if they dont thier families do, and I know they can be affected by some of the comments. Do you think the girls who work very hard to make the club shop work like some of the infantile comments being directed at them? Do Tabitha and Emma and all the others in the office who work extremely hard trying to bring money into the club like being referred to as un-professional?

Constructive criticism is good, and to be encouraged, but some of what is written, by a minority of the posters on here, is nothing short of downright abuse.

As for relegation and Div 1. I am looking forward to it. Football is more entertaining than SPL and we will be pitting our wits against teams who have all had a taste in the top league at some time. Be it SPL or old Div1.

Bring it all on I say. 7/4 joint favourites with Scotbet to win the league. County 20/1 :024:

[CaleyD]

Charles, If these are the kinds of attitudes that exist within the club these days then it's little wonder fans have lost and continue to lose respect for those charged with the running of the club...and it should therefore come as no surprise to anyone looking in that a damaging and unhealthy gap has grown between the two groups.

Never in my adult life have I ever thought "I'll ignore that complaint because they're obviously just moaning for the hell of it" - I might have disagreed with the cause for complaint many times but you still try and get to the bottom of it to either win the person round, have them win you round or until you reach the point where you just have to say "We hear you, but we can't/won't be changing anything because we feel our way is the best"

I'm not going to comment on the remarks made about this forum or how successful and debt free our club actually has been, and what the real cost of that is, because those are entirely different topics to what is being discussed on this thread.

What I will try and do is bring it back to the original point about the nature of the responses being provided to the questions asked in the Boardroom Banter by saying that if you have a culture within the club (or within any business) which says, "We know everything and nobody is going to tell us any different", then that is going to filter through in every single piece of communication the club has with the fans.

The club may dislike fans telling them how things should be done, but you can be sure that the fans are equally resentful of being talked down to like they know and can contribute nothing.

Referring to fans, any fans, with terms such as.....

An Unrepresentative Minority

Lacking Moral Courage

Disaffected Rumps

A Cabal of Discontents

Arrogant and Self Satisfied

Discontented Knowalls

Carpers and Whingers

Notorious Dissidents

Delusional

& Muppets

.....will do little to help mend the gap, especially when they are used by people with a self proclaimed inside knowledge on how the club views it's fans.

[Caley Stan]

Absent Friend, Mainstander, Charles Bannerman - we have just been relegated.

On the road to relegation a lot of decisions were made by managers, board members and shareholders that supporters are entitled to question and naturally wonder if they were the decisions that led to this outcome.

Some of our most loyal supporters are being chastised on this thread for asking those questions. I'm glad that it's people like IHE who speak up in difficult times rather than friends of the establishment like you three who are willing to sit on their hands while people like Brewster and Bennett jeopordise the success and spirit that this club has built over the last fifteen years.

[Harry Chibber]

I have't posted much on the "ICT" forum here for some time. This is partly because of a clash of interest with my journalistic activities (especially in the "goldfish bowl" of the SPL) but also to a large extent because the tone of the whole thing has changed so much for the worse over the last five years or so that this is something I would no longer want to be associated with. However I am, belatedly, prompted to do so now by some of the content of this and other related threads.

It is a strange irony that the higher Caley Thistle went in Scottish football, the more carping, whingeing and discontented the tone of some comments became on this board. It is also worth noting a corresponding shift in the identity of the regular contributors involved over the period.

Caley Thistle has been an amazingly successful football club which took Inverness from the Highland League to the SPL in a decade, kept the city there against all expectations for five years, and did so in a manner which was within its means and leaves the club debt free. This season the club was eventually relegated by the smallest of margins (of which more in a moment.)

Inverness Caledonian Thistle has been one of the major success stories in Scottish football but yet there are still fans who appear to make it their life's mission to spread discontent, to a large extent through the medium of this forum. This has already been suggested by the likes of "absent friend" and also "mainstander" whose earlier intervention on another thread seemed to precede an unprecedented period of silence from one of the more notorious dissidents.

On this forum there has been a constant (albeit unrepresentative) stream of people who seem to think they know how to run a business better than the Board, how to run a football team better than the manager (whoever he may be) and how to play the game better than the players.

The arrogance and self satisfaction frequently shown is breathtaking! But of far greater concern is the effect that the rantings of this unrepresentative minority have had on those who are doing their best to make Caley Thistle the best they can.

In the course of business, I find myself behind the scenes at the Caledonian Stadium two or three times a week. I speak extensively to people who work for the club, on and off the field, and I can testify to the demoralising effect that the rants of a hardcore of discontented knowalls have had on these people - even though they are perfectly aware that they are simply the delusions of a disaffected rump.

It can't be very pleasant to come into your work in the morning to the awareness that a cabal of discontents, most of whom do not even have the moral courage to use their real names, continue to snipe at your best efforts and to undermine your honest attempts to do your best for Inverness football.

Now let's return to the wafer thin margin by which Caley Thistle were relegated. There must be so many factors which, if they turned out only slightly differently, would have resulted in survival. And indeed one of these must be the demoralising effect which the constant public comments of a handful of the unenlightened had on the morale of the employees at the sharp end of ICT's survival bid. Perhaps these snipers should now examine their consciences and ask what role THEY actually played in what has just happened?

Under the circumstances, the term "supporters" seems singularly inappropriate here - it might be far better to ask who the REAL "Muppets" are?

PS - anyone inclined towards the "Well I pay my money and I'm entited to my opnion" reaction need not bother responding. This argument has been well overwhelmed by the sheer crassness of what we have increasingly had inflicted on us here in recent years.

PPS - anyone tempted to suggest that I am not entitled to an opinion since I don't actually pay for entry to the ground should not bother replying either since it will be like water off a duck's back.

I find it amazing that a journalist has the cheek to try and censor any fan's opinion

Charles, I've always had respect for you and your opinion but this has to be the most ridiculous post you've made on a forum.

Q) The most successful club in the world?? A) Barcelona

Q) the majority shareholder A) the fans

If you read any of my previous posts you'll find that I'm very grateful for what the board have done and how they've done it but to suggest they don't deserve criticism when things go wrong, or to have the arrogance to suggest that improvements can't be made or suggested is just ridiculous.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Harry Chibber

[Johnboy]

]

I find it amazing that journalist has the cheek to try and censor fan's opinions

If you read any of my previous posts you'll find that I'm very grateful for what the board has done and how we've done it but to suggest that they don't deserve criticism when things go wrong, or to have the arrogance to suggest that improvements can't be made or suggested is just ridiculous.

Totally agree....

This would be an extremely boring website if all its contributors agreed wholeheartedly with every decision taken my the management/board.

Charles....

Try looking at other supporters' websites for any club, anywhere in the world (apart maybe from Communist China)

There you will find a whole broad spectrum of opinion from all kinds of supporters from all kinds of backgrounds which is how it should be. To describe sections of our support as :

The Unrepresentative Minority

Disaffected Rumps

A Cabal of Discontents

Arrogant and Self Satisfied

Discontented Knowalls

Carpers and Whingers

Notorious Dissidents

Delusional

Muppets

is extremely offensive.

[acharacleoracle]

Oh Charles I?m disappointed in you. It must be playtime up at the IRA or are you just fishing for something to write about with your journo hat on?.

This fangled interweb thingy has for once given the ?unrepresentative minority? a voice. No longer do we have to rely on the press to give us the news or should I say a watered down version of the club line as is fed to you on your thrice weekly visits to the stadium. Reports in which any criticism is kept to a minimum as you are mindful of getting your next interview. Maybe over the last five years the users on this forum have realised just how powerful a medium this is, it has given them the opportunity to air their views like they have never had the chance to do before and as a by product make those points and have them read by those it may concern.

There have been plenty of hot topics for you to dip into and wet your journalistic appetite and gauge the feeling on the terrace.

Mariusgate

The Savage v Sutherland spat

The Rory hate campaign

The get Brewster out campaign

We even had Robbo blatantly touting for the managers job.

All delivered with a hefty mix of criticism, sarcasm, insult, innuendo, banter and a fair amount of pure BS but then that?s the web for you.

There were a good few posters on this forum who identified the clubs relegation plight long before the board acted to deploy an action plan to save our SPL lives. Sadly the views where overlooked the axe wielded to late in the day and we got our just reward, relegation. Never mind though, we are a debt free first division side now.

Right you lot, for criticising ICT its 100 lines each to be on my desk by 9 am tomorrow.

?I must not criticise Inverness Caledonian Thistle Football Club under any circumstances.?

I must not criticise Inverness Caledonian Thistle Football Club under any circumstances.

I must not criticise Inverness Caledonian Thistle Football Club under any circumstances.

I must not criticise Inverness Caledonian Thistle Football Club under any circumstances.

I must not criticise Inverness Caledonian Thistle Football Club under any circumstances.

I must not criticise Inverness Caledonian Thistle Football Club under any circumstances.

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[stevico1]

I have't posted much on the "ICT" forum here for some time. This is partly because of a clash of interest with my journalistic activities (especially in the "goldfish bowl" of the SPL) but also to a large extent because the tone of the whole thing has changed so much for the worse over the last five years or so that this is something I would no longer want to be associated with. However I am, belatedly, prompted to do so now by some of the content of this and other related threads.

It is a strange irony that the higher Caley Thistle went in Scottish football, the more carping, whingeing and discontented the tone of some comments became on this board. It is also worth noting a corresponding shift in the identity of the regular contributors involved over the period.

Caley Thistle has been an amazingly successful football club which took Inverness from the Highland League to the SPL in a decade, kept the city there against all expectations for five years, and did so in a manner which was within its means and leaves the club debt free. This season the club was eventually relegated by the smallest of margins (of which more in a moment.)

Inverness Caledonian Thistle has been one of the major success stories in Scottish football but yet there are still fans who appear to make it their life's mission to spread discontent, to a large extent through the medium of this forum. This has already been suggested by the likes of "absent friend" and also "mainstander" whose earlier intervention on another thread seemed to precede an unprecedented period of silence from one of the more notorious dissidents.

On this forum there has been a constant (albeit unrepresentative) stream of people who seem to think they know how to run a business better than the Board, how to run a football team better than the manager (whoever he may be) and how to play the game better than the players.

The arrogance and self satisfaction frequently shown is breathtaking! But of far greater concern is the effect that the rantings of this unrepresentative minority have had on those who are doing their best to make Caley Thistle the best they can.

In the course of business, I find myself behind the scenes at the Caledonian Stadium two or three times a week. I speak extensively to people who work for the club, on and off the field, and I can testify to the demoralising effect that the rants of a hardcore of discontented knowalls have had on these people - even though they are perfectly aware that they are simply the delusions of a disaffected rump.

It can't be very pleasant to come into your work in the morning to the awareness that a cabal of discontents, most of whom do not even have the moral courage to use their real names, continue to snipe at your best efforts and to undermine your honest attempts to do your best for Inverness football.

Now let's return to the wafer thin margin by which Caley Thistle were relegated. There must be so many factors which, if they turned out only slightly differently, would have resulted in survival. And indeed one of these must be the demoralising effect which the constant public comments of a handful of the unenlightened had on the morale of the employees at the sharp end of ICT's survival bid. Perhaps these snipers should now examine their consciences and ask what role THEY actually played in what has just happened?

Under the circumstances, the term "supporters" seems singularly inappropriate here - it might be far better to ask who the REAL "Muppets" are?

PS - anyone inclined towards the "Well I pay my money and I'm entited to my opnion" reaction need not bother responding. This argument has been well overwhelmed by the sheer crassness of what we have increasingly had inflicted on us here in recent years.

PPS - anyone tempted to suggest that I am not entitled to an opinion since I don't actually pay for entry to the ground should not bother replying either since it will be like water off a duck's back.

Charles no wonder some of the fans feel alienated. So you dont find the board somewhat responsible that Brewster was left in charge when it was clear he was taking us down. What club in the world has fans that don't have a go at the board at some point,

[absent friend]

Absent Friend, Mainstander, Charles Bannerman - we have just been relegated.

On the road to relegation a lot of decisions were made by managers, board members and shareholders that supporters are entitled to question and naturally wonder if they were the decisions that led to this outcome.

Some of our most loyal supporters are being chastised on this thread for asking those questions. I'm glad that it's people like IHE who speak up in difficult times rather than friends of the establishment like you three who are willing to sit on their hands while people like Brewster and Bennett jeopordise the success and spirit that this club has built over the last fifteen years.

I will accept it as a compliment that I am seen as a friend of the establishment!

The establishment that is ICT covers all parties that make up this super club and whilst I accept that they do not all pull in the same direction all the time, the common aim is the betterment of this club.

If you were kind enough to read my offerings on here you will note that I do not 'sit' on my hands however I also have the courage to differ where I see fit so maybe that makes me a friend of the establishment.

Being downright rude, especially when not in knowledge of the facts, and posting personal attacks is not, in my book, very clever so maybe that makes me a friend of the establishment..

I find IHE's contribution to this forum extremely amusing and not, on occasions, without substance however some of his utterances I would not applaud so maybe that makes me a friend of the establishment.

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[Scotty]

Charles, if what you are reporting is a truly accurate account of the mindset from behind the scenes, then I find it truly sad that it has basically validated much of what I said in my posts up to now and only served to confirm the void that does exist between fans and officials of this club.

I accept that it is hard for staff/players to read disparaging remarks about themselves on an Internet forum, and if you go back up the page and read post 18 you will see I said as much long before you posted your retort.

However, if I can take one specific example, the broad range of users on here can also heap praise where and when it is due too. Andrina and the shop/ticket office staff are a prime example of this. There might be the odd grumble, but that is usually drowned out at least tenfold by other users as she and the other staff involved in this area of the club consistently perform to a far higher standard than would be regarded as merely acceptable.

I would also suggest to you that those same people who - from your post - appear to be tarring the entire website with the same derogatory brush because we will not censor the views of opinionated posters (regardless of whether we agree with those opinions or not), are likely the same people who, to my face, complimented us on "effective management" of particularly controversial subjects surrounding the likes of Richie Hart, Ross Tokely, Steve Paterson, and more recently Graeme Bennett and Craig Brewster. We didnt do this to stifle debate or ingratiate ourselves with the club, we did it because the subjects crossed our line in the sand that has been there for a lot longer than the 5 years you reckon this site has been going downhill.

One thing you, and the club perhaps need to realise, is that in terms of Football Fora, this one is MILD in the extreme !!! I would urge you to look around at some others .... I frequent sites like Pie and Bovril, BigSoccer, and 3 Toronto FC ones as a normal member and every single one of them has things that make me cringe, and would be deleted without a trace on here from a "webmaster" point of view (especially P&B which is the biggest Football Forum in Scotland). You dont even have to look at Football ones .... pluck any subject out of the air and find a forum about it and you will see far worse than you see on here if it is not moderated effectively. However, lets be clear, moderation ≠ censorship.

I think I have been honest in everything I have said in this thread, as I am in most threads, and having had a somewhat privileged (or painful at times) viewpoint over the years where I was basically "in the middle" between fans and officials, I think I can even now still see both sides of the argument. I had previously acknowledged some of the charges you levied at this site in general before you posted them, and I know some of our supporters can have radical opinions (which we dont all agree with) but it appears there can be no acknowledgement of the fact that mistakes can also be made on the other side of the fence.

I just want to make one final point and then I think I am pretty much done with this thread (although I do reserve the right to change my mind).

You posted: "... a cabal of discontents, most of whom do not even have the moral courage to use their real names, continue to snipe at your best efforts and to undermine your honest attempts to do your best for Inverness football".

I would say TOUCHE !!! All I have ever tried to do with this site in the last 15 years is to provide a platform for fans of Inverness Caledonian Thistle FC to voice their opinions. I have also endured constant sniping at my best efforts, sometimes from site users but frequently from a somewhat different cabal of discontents. discontents who are faceless and nameless (or so they would like to think) but snipe behind your back or try to plant seeds of doubt with others about your motives whilst smiling at you or shaking your hand. These are not site users (although some might be - and also going under an anonymous pseudonym that we will not divulge), these are people associated with ICT over the years, or in some cases still associated with ICT.

Does it bother me? If I am honest, I will say yes it does, but only sometimes as you develop a thick skin in this environment. Do I let it stop me from trying to "do my best for Inverness Football" ? No I do not, and I will not. I have tremendous respect for a lot of people at the club, not least our former chairman, as well as Kenny and Grassa but that respect will not stop me from having an opinion. Hopefully they respect me enough to allow me that opinion.

[Georgeios]

I think this has gone way off topic here, it?s very them and us?

The way I see this forum is ?A football fans forum? where we can come on and if needs be vent your spleen a bit, for others to either agree or disagree with our comments.

I believe personal attacks and the likes can be caught up in the heat of the moment comments we right. Overall however they should have no place on here and I believe the Mods do a great job of removing what?s deemed to be unacceptable.

To that note, I feel that we have a right ?freedom of speech? and all that to post our views, ok they may not be worth much but we have the right to post them?

As Fans we all have the right to feel passionate about out club, Its not like a job where if we feel the boss?s are not doing what they should be we can leave, or got to the Union Rep about, We have the trusts and stuff but this thread is asking what they are doing for us as well, or should I put it what is the club doing with them?.

Yes it?s a business and with out our board we wouldn?t have a team to feel passionate about in the SFL/SPL anyway, they may not make the right decisions at times and we as fans will always be the first to have a go when they are wrong, in the same way I fell the fans are rewarding the board now with the appointment of TB by buying season tickets and ?getting behind the team? even down in Div 1.

I just think the board should pay a bit more attentions to how we feel, after all (and yes I am going to say it) we are there customers and if we are not happy with there produce then we have a right to Vent?

At the end of my rant I?m basically going to say, we are the customer and have the right to complain when the supplier does not give us what we expect, we as fans are guilty at times however to go a bit over the top? sorry for that.. Passion it s horrible thing!!

And Thanks to the Board I have had the privilege to watch top flight football on my door step, Thanks for that.

[Scotty]

The establishment that is ICT covers all parties that make up this super club and whilst I accept that they do not all pull in the same direction all the time, the common aim is the betterment of this club.

Probably the best post (other than my own of course) that I have read on this thread. I would however say that the establishment also includes fans and hopefully we can use this relegation to Div1 to once again start pulling in the same direction.

I find IHE's contribution to this forum extremely amusing and not, on occasions, without substance however some of his utterances I would not applaud so maybe that makes me a friend of the establishment.

Nope. that sums up IHE in a nutshell. In real life he is an intelligent man with a responsible job. In football life he is a passionate ICT fan who sometimes asks the questions that need asked but not always in a diplomatic way, sometimes tries to wind us all up, sometimes posts humorous interludes that crack you up and sometimes goes over the top ......

[i know I said I was done with this thread but the "establishment" quote from AF deserved a reply]