Team for County

[Renegade]

If he was a good manager then he wouldn't have sacked at nearly every club he's been at. He should of been relegated in his first season at Motherwell, and made a complete pig's ear of Sunderland, Brentford and Sydney (his record at Brentford BTW is nearly just as bad as Brewster's at DUFC!). Lets put things in perspective, he's signed one very good player (to his credit) in Hayes that has been the catalyst of a lot of ICT's success this season, but let's look at the standard of this league. The SPL, on the whole is rotten, the standard of Division is rather rotten as well, so what's is someone of Butcher's name and Butcher's calibre doing at a club and in a league like this? To me that says a lot about him. Other teams won't touch him as manager with a ten foot pole, I wonder why?

I don't care what he did elsewhere, I'd rather go on the fact that he has one of, if not, the best win percentage since Pele. You're argument about the league doesn't stand up... you manage the team you have, in the league they're in he can't do anything else but try and get the wins. No other teams will touch him because he's our manager... are you actually comparing to Butcher to Sir Alex Ferguson here? Have you asked yourself why a manager with decent calibre would come anywhere near ICT??

I'm not for a second suggesting he's the answer to all our problems but he is what we have and he's obviously doing all he can for ICT and at the moment a lot of what he's doing is working.

To his credit, he essentially had ICT safe - then he blew it. Those were his mistake, which were not decisions of necessity, and that what's blew it for ICT. Brewster had the team in a bad way, but Butcher's decisions with just a couple of games to go, was what blew it - and that was Butcher's fault.

I don't buy into the "we live in a blame culture" boll0x but after reading your last sentence I see what they mean.

You have no idea what went on behind the scenes or what influenced Butcher's decisions at that time... it was his decision to make and he was obviously doing what he thought was neccesary to keep us in the division. If Tokely doesn't get caught on the wrong side of Higdon (?) then you would be kissing the ground he walked on for it being a piece of genius. We were relegated and he was incharge at the time but to say that it was his fault when we were in such a dire hole before he arrived is well off the mark

I get some of your points, just the thing is, I just don't rate the guy. I'm not the only feels that way (despite what you'd read off this forum), I feel that he doesn't play good football, seems a bit tactically naive and if he thinks Stratford is better than Vigurs, then there's something not right there. The point you make about him "not being touched because he's ICT manager" I think is an interesting one. What is a man of that footballing calibre doing here? To me that says quite a bit about his ability. You say you don't care how well he did elsewhere, but if you don't learn from the past then you're bound to repeat it and some of the traits he displayed here are almost identical to what he has done elsewhere. It might not seem like it just now, but I won't be surprised if it ends in a similar manner as well.

[Harry Chibber]

The point you make about him "not being touched because he's ICT manager" I think is an interesting one. What is a man of that footballing calibre doing here? To me that says quite a bit about his ability. You say you don't care how well he did elsewhere, but if you don't learn from the past then you're bound to repeat it and some of the traits he displayed here are almost identical to what he has done elsewhere. It might not seem like it just now, but I won't be surprised if it ends in a similar manner as well.

He's here because we needed a manager and he was the best choice available (in the board's opinion) at that time. He has always done well when paired with Malpas and he is doing so now..

doesn't matter a jot what he's done elsewhere because if he gets us promoted he has been a success at our club. Managers do well at different clubs for different reasons.. for example your favourite for the job Robbo, apart from what he achieved with ICT he has done poorly at Hearts, C*unty and Livi... does that make him a bad manager??

Pele, won 2 promotions with ICT yet couldn't hack it at Aberdeen or Peterhead, does that make him a bad manager???

Brewster..... well yeh he's p!sh but I think you get my point

You are welcome to your opinion Rene but I think you need to look at what's currently being achieved rather than discriminate against hi, because of what's gone in the past

[Joe DiMaggio]

Lionel was suberb last night - had one wee defensive mis-cue, which gave Clach a chance, but had some terrific runs through the middle - one of these got us a penalty.

The guy really is a class act. The sooner someone realises he is not a defender the better.

I really hope your on the wind up. The guy is a bomb scare. he had one ok run against a highland league team but he mis controlled the ball a couple of times and 'one wee defensive mis-cue'?? He had the ball inside his own box and passed it straight to a Clach forward in the box who blasted over the bar, if he does that on sat then its a goal to County.

[Johnboy]

Lionel was suberb last night - had one wee defensive mis-cue, which gave Clach a chance, but had some terrific runs through the middle - one of these got us a penalty.

The guy really is a class act. The sooner someone realises he is not a defender the better.

I really hope your on the wind up. The guy is a bomb scare. he had one ok run against a highland league team but he mis controlled the ball a couple of times and 'one wee defensive mis-cue'?? He had the ball inside his own box and passed it straight to a Clach forward in the box who blasted over the bar, if he does that on sat then its a goal to County.

Not on the wind up at all. I've been saying for long enough that Lionel is not a defender. But I really believe he could add a lot to the team from central or left midfield. It might even be worth trying him as an out and out striker.

Do you think Barrowboy would have scored last night with that chance that Lionel gifted to Clach?

[Renegade]

The point you make about him "not being touched because he's ICT manager" I think is an interesting one. What is a man of that footballing calibre doing here? To me that says quite a bit about his ability. You say you don't care how well he did elsewhere, but if you don't learn from the past then you're bound to repeat it and some of the traits he displayed here are almost identical to what he has done elsewhere. It might not seem like it just now, but I won't be surprised if it ends in a similar manner as well.

. for example your favourite for the job Robbo, apart from what he achieved with ICT he has done poorly at Hearts, C*unty and Livi... does that make him a bad manager??

Maybe you should go back and check who my favourite candidate was at the time.

[Joe DiMaggio]

Lionel was suberb last night - had one wee defensive mis-cue, which gave Clach a chance, but had some terrific runs through the middle - one of these got us a penalty.

The guy really is a class act. The sooner someone realises he is not a defender the better.

I really hope your on the wind up. The guy is a bomb scare. he had one ok run against a highland league team but he mis controlled the ball a couple of times and 'one wee defensive mis-cue'?? He had the ball inside his own box and passed it straight to a Clach forward in the box who blasted over the bar, if he does that on sat then its a goal to County.

Not on the wind up at all. I've been saying for long enough that Lionel is not a defender. But I really believe he could add a lot to the team from central or left midfield. It might even be worth trying him as an out and out striker.

Do you think Barrowboy would have scored last night with that chance that Lionel gifted to Clach?

He prob would have and thats saying something! There is no way lionel is a centre midfileder, we would get torn to its against a decent team with him in there. Remember it was a highland league team that looked like they were playing with many teenagers he was up against! Butcher and Brewster before him would have seen Lionel in training and both haven't thought that he could do a job in midfiled or upfront, thankfully!

Do you remember once last season where he was actually brought on at left mid? What a disaster that was, he had no idea what he was doing and was passing the ball straight out of the park. Never again was he given a shot outside LB.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Joe DiMaggio

[Johnboy]

He prob would have and thats saying something! There is no way lionel is a centre midfileder, we would get torn to its against a decent team with him in there. Remember it was a highland league team that looked like they were playing with many teenagers he was up against! Butcher and Brewster before him would have seen Lionel in training and both haven't thought that he could do a job in midfiled or upfront, thankfully!

Do you remember once last season where he was actually brought on at left mid? What a disaster that was, he had no idea what he was doing and was passing the ball straight out of the park. Never again was he given a shot outside LB.

I feel sorry for Lionel. Everybody notices his every mistake.

It's unfortunate, he is so noticeable and so instantly recogniseable on the pitch because he's so emm, err... tall.

:)

[Harry Chibber]

The point you make about him "not being touched because he's ICT manager" I think is an interesting one. What is a man of that footballing calibre doing here? To me that says quite a bit about his ability. You say you don't care how well he did elsewhere, but if you don't learn from the past then you're bound to repeat it and some of the traits he displayed here are almost identical to what he has done elsewhere. It might not seem like it just now, but I won't be surprised if it ends in a similar manner as well.

. for example your favourite for the job Robbo, apart from what he achieved with ICT he has done poorly at Hearts, C*unty and Livi... does that make him a bad manager??

Maybe you should go back and check who my favourite candidate was at the time.

Can't be ersed..

[donald]

He prob would have and thats saying something! There is no way lionel is a centre midfileder, we would get torn to its against a decent team with him in there. Remember it was a highland league team that looked like they were playing with many teenagers he was up against! Butcher and Brewster before him would have seen Lionel in training and both haven't thought that he could do a job in midfiled or upfront, thankfully!

Do you remember once last season where he was actually brought on at left mid? What a disaster that was, he had no idea what he was doing and was passing the ball straight out of the park. Never again was he given a shot outside LB.

I feel sorry for Lionel. Everybody notices his every mistake.

It's unfortunate, he is so noticeable and so instantly recogniseable on the pitch because he's so emm, err... tall.

:)

LOL at the reference to him being tall :) - he does have some nice classy touches occasionally, but his rate of passes completed to one of his own team must be dire. I would say any time I have seen him that at least 75% of the balls he passes go to the opposition or out of the park.

[Renegade]

Why is it with Lionel that some people are just desperate for him to fail? You can just imagine what's going on in these people's heads -

Go on Lionel, fail

Fail so I can gloat at everyone

{Lionel has the ball at his feet}

Go on Lionel, mess it up!

{Lionel complete's pass}

Oh no, he got it right! Maybe next time....

{Lionel, who's been playing well, makes one bad pass and the opposition score}

Lionel messed it up! Look at me! Look at me! Look at me! I was right! What a bombscare! What a terrible game! Get him off! I was right! I was right!

Yet these same people (like hypothetical dimwit above) seem to treat Ross Tokely as some sort of God, when most of the time, he ain't much better.

[Renegade]

The point you make about him "not being touched because he's ICT manager" I think is an interesting one. What is a man of that footballing calibre doing here? To me that says quite a bit about his ability. You say you don't care how well he did elsewhere, but if you don't learn from the past then you're bound to repeat it and some of the traits he displayed here are almost identical to what he has done elsewhere. It might not seem like it just now, but I won't be surprised if it ends in a similar manner as well.

. for example your favourite for the job Robbo, apart from what he achieved with ICT he has done poorly at Hearts, C*unty and Livi... does that make him a bad manager??

Maybe you should go back and check who my favourite candidate was at the time.

Can't be ersed..

Well it wasn't Robbo, it was Butcher.

[roby]

Lionel was suberb last night - had one wee defensive mis-cue, which gave Clach a chance, but had some terrific runs through the middle - one of these got us a penalty.

The guy really is a class act. The sooner someone realises he is not a defender the better.

Class act ! You have got to be joking. Quite simply he is one of the worst defenders ever to wear our jersey. You obviously have a short memory when you dont recall how County targetted him in the 1st derby off the season. I will be surprised if he starts a 1st team game again for us.By the way it was Clach we were playing . Maybe this will tell you something about his level.

[donald]

Why is it with Lionel that some people are just desperate for him to fail? You can just imagine what's going on in these people's heads -

Go on Lionel, fail

Fail so I can gloat at everyone

{Lionel has the ball at his feet}

Go on Lionel, mess it up!

{Lionel complete's pass}

Oh no, he got it right! Maybe next time....

{Lionel, who's been playing well, makes one bad pass and the opposition score}

Lionel messed it up! Look at me! Look at me! Look at me! I was right! What a bombscare! What a terrible game! Get him off! I was right! I was right!

Yet these same people (like hypothetical dimwit above) seem to treat Ross Tokely as some sort of God, when most of the time, he ain't much better.

:) I presume that was me you are referring to as the hypothetical dimwit above - thanks, but for your information I have never said I wanted lionel to fail at anything - I think he does have some nice touches occasionally, but he just can't pass the ball - a bit like Tokely actually.

[Johnboy]

No.... He meant the hypothetical dimwit in his own post.

[Pele_Is_God]

Renegade your defence of Lionel is boring and tedious. He is NOT a good footballer, people who know a thing or two about the game would tell you that. TB will get rid in the summer and he can return to the german amateur leagues.

[donald]

No.... He meant the hypothetical dimwit in his own post.

:) :) :D LO hypothetically L :D :D :D

[Renegade]

Renegade your defence of Lionel is boring and tedious. He is NOT a good footballer, people who know a thing or two about the game would tell you that. TB will get rid in the summer and he can return to the german amateur leagues.

:)

This coming from the poster who goes on and on about how amazing Butcher is? A bit boring and tedious is it not?

[Renegade]

I presume that was me you are referring to as the hypothetical dimwit above - thanks, but for your information I have never said I wanted lionel to fail at anything - I think he does have some nice touches occasionally, but he just can't pass the ball - a bit like Tokely actually.

Ah well that's okay then, not rating a player is one thing, but wanting him to fail (a philosophy that seems to be true in a few posters) is another.

On the other bit, it's not just Tokely and Lionel that can't pass, it's about three quarters of the team!

[alternative maryhill]

FAO Johnboy and Rene - you're both suggesting Lionel could come into the side in a more attacking role. Fair enough. I've seen him have some good games and some bad games this season, and I've certainly felt he looked dangerous going forward at times.

Don't you think it might be a bit too much of a gamble pitching him straight in there against County, though? I didn't see the County game where he apparently had a complete nightmare, but I seem to remember a lot of people suggesting he looked really nervous, like a rabbit in headlights most of the time. Was this purely because he was being played at left back, in your opinons the wrong position? Or was it perhaps a case of his temperament and if so, might it not be likely to happen again in what is an even more important game?

[Renegade]

That's a good point. And to be honest, I think this may not be the game to try it out.

On the other hand though, there were a few moments on Monday night when he joined the front line. He certainly looks like a better striker than defender, and his overhead kick was superb (just a shame it went just wide). If he were to be played in the centre, just behind the striker(s), where he could attack, whilst using his pace and be out of harms way at the back (where he can be a liability) then I think he would be a very dangerous player.

[Johnboy]

FAO Johnboy and Rene - you're both suggesting Lionel could come into the side in a more attacking role. Fair enough. I've seen him have some good games and some bad games this season, and I've certainly felt he looked dangerous going forward at times.

Don't you think it might be a bit too much of a gamble pitching him straight in there against County, though? I didn't see the County game where he apparently had a complete nightmare, but I seem to remember a lot of people suggesting he looked really nervous, like a rabbit in headlights most of the time. Was this purely because he was being played at left back, in your opinons the wrong position? Or was it perhaps a case of his temperament and if so, might it not be likely to happen again in what is an even more important game?

I can recall Lionel playing really well against Celtic (0-0) shortly after TB took charge. He was up against guys like Robson and Nakamura and aquitted himself very well.

Don't think playing against the likes of County should unfaze him. I think he could do a job for us in a "Foran type" role. The only reservations I have about him is that his unpredictability can have an unsettling effect on the back four, when he plays at LB. Golly's deffo the best option for that position at the moment.

[starchief]

Quite often, last season, I'd go for a back five with Tokely and DZ as wing-backs. I think that's their natural positions. Allows rampaging runs forward and tightens up the defence when they forget to get back. DZ isn't skilled enough for a true midfielder but a wing back overlapping? Sounds fine to me.

The back 5 idea was before Mihadjuks, so the Proctor-Munro-Hastings combination looked a bit tighter too plus with a touch of passing and mobility. Thought it could have worked seeing as most of the time, we only really had Munro as a central defender.

I don't think we've got a passing midfielder good enough to play a 5-3-2, so now the moves would constantly be breaking down. Need a lynchpin like Black for that system.

[12th Man]

----------------------Easson----------------------

Proctor-------Tokely------Munro-----Golly

----------Duncan---------------Cox-----------

Hayes-----------------------------------Mcbain

-------------------------------Flash eric--------

---------Grande balls---------------------------

Sanchez for Eric, Ross for Mcbain and swap wingers, then Bulvitis for Hayes and move proctor into right wing to see out the victory

[ICTPaisley]

Why is it with Lionel that some people are just desperate for him to fail? You can just imagine what's going on in these people's heads -

Go on Lionel, fail

Fail so I can gloat at everyone

{Lionel has the ball at his feet}

Go on Lionel, mess it up!

{Lionel complete's pass}

Oh no, he got it right! Maybe next time....

{Lionel, who's been playing well, makes one bad pass and the opposition score}

Lionel messed it up! Look at me! Look at me! Look at me! I was right! What a bombscare! What a terrible game! Get him off! I was right! I was right!

Yet these same people (like hypothetical dimwit above) seem to treat Ross Tokely as some sort of God, when most of the time, he ain't much better.

I don't quite think that's how people see Lionel. All through the season when he has started i've thought he could do a job, its not until he makes that crucial mistake though when people start turning on him. When he plays he sometimes looks lazy and not interested.

I think his days at this club are now numbered.

[Harry Chibber]

I'd go (dependent on suspensions):

Esson

Tokely Bully Munro Golly

Hayes Duncan Cox Proctor Odhiambo

Rooney

Solid as possible, win the battle in the centre and use the pace of Odhiambo and Hayes on the flanks. If not working bring on Sanchez for whichever of the 3 centre mids is playing the poorest