White Paper on Independence published this week

[Mee]

BBC story

As promised the SNP are to publish their white paper on independence within the first 100 days of being in power.

DRAFT INDEPENDENCE REFERENDUM QUESTION

The Scottish Parliament should negotiate a new settlement with the British government, based on the proposals set out in the White Paper, so that Scotland becomes a sovereign and independent state.

The responses would be 'Yes I agree' or 'No I disagree'

All the other parties (except the Greens) look likely to oppose the move towards a referendum - Labour say its a waste of taxpayers money (didn't seem to bother them when they were in power), and have hounded the Tories and Illiberals into releasing a joint statement

joint statement in full (BBC) which just reads to me "The union is dead, long live the union"

A recent You Gov poll (for the Daily Mail though) showed that although 50% of folk supported the SNP, only 31% supported independence, which leads me to think they must have polled a seriously below average intelligence section of the population. One Labour MP has already said she would vote Yes in a referendum (I forget her name though, sorry!) I think we're in for a very interesting political time ahead!

How would folk vote in such a referendum then? I guess you can probably tell I'm a Yes girl  :001:

[Hamish]

I don't understand really why the opposition parties won't support a referendum? I can understand them not wanting independence (sort of!) but having a referendum is finding out what the people want; the people are, after all, who politicians are supposed to represent in government! Surely it's a good way to lay the independence matter to rest once and for all one way or another? It's arrogant of them to block us having the chance to make a decision on this most important of issues. It's like they think the general population can't be trusted to decide what future the country should have and they'll decide that for us using their infinite wisdom! I think the SNP have been the most open and transparent party in their first 100 days since we got devolution, doing everything they said they would and for the interest of Scotland, not the interests of Westminster!

[Kingsmills]

The SNP clearly feel obliged to pursue the issue given that it was a clear manifesto pledge.

The is, unfortunately, no prospect of this route leading to independence at this stage.

[Johnboy]

As an SNP supporter I'm against a referendum right now because I suspect the result would be a resounding "NO" which would be a major setback for a future independent Scotland.

I think there should be a gradual drift towards independence and would hope the SNP will have demonstrated, as a devolved administration, that they will be more than capable of governing a fully independent Scotland within the next five years.....

Rome wasn't built in a day..... :018:

[Guest donmac298]

I'm with you there Johnboy.

[Johnboy]

Thank phuq somebody is....  :clapping03:

[Guest sophia]

Unlike Mee I wouldn't say yes right away.

In taking such an important step I would like to be convinced that it would be a good thing.

That said, I wish that the Unionists allow a mature debate and spare us the "armed guards at the border" claptrap.

[MorayJaggie]

The voters should decide weather or not scotland should be independant Ireland have done it with a similar sized population why can't Scotland.  My opinion is oil England need it to keep there government in money without it they would be sunk remeber conservtives and labour are still ruled by their english counterparts.

[Mee]

Unlike Mee I wouldn't say yes right away.

In taking such an important step I would like to be convinced that it would be a good thing.

I think I was born convinced it would be a good thing Sophia, I've always seen independence as a positive step and I'm delighted that it will happen within my lifetime! The SNP aren't saying that they want a referendum right away, but they've put it up for discussion and thats the way democracy should work.  :003: The unionists want to stifle this debate as they have been banging on for years about what a good deal we get for being part of the UK when in fact its them who get a good deal out of being our neighbours!

[Guest donmac298]

You're entitled to your opinion TinCanFan but I don't think you've seen much of life my friend.

[Mee]

And why do the SNP want an independent nation owned by England like Australia and Canada?  That makes no sense to me at all and is not wanted by other pro-independent parties like the Scottish Socialists and Solidarity.  As far as I'm concerned Nationalism is a terrible thing and many people only want independence because they admire barbaric idiots like William Wallace.  Stop living in the past.  We are extremely lucky to live in Britain and why would you want to break that up?  Sure bad things happened in the past but the Thatcherites are gone and I extremely doubt that that will happen in the future.

You must have been in Mr Bannermans History class  :rotflmao:

Seriously, I would rather my hefty chunk of tax went towards stuff like a referendum on independence, and then to mainly Scottish causes like education, health and care than to a the olympic games in London or Tory MPs fruit and underwear expenses. I'm extremely lucky to live in Scotland, end of story, its my country, I'm a Scot! I'm not british and I dont live in Britain! I am very much living in the present and I can see whats going on for myself, whereas you appear to leave it all up to the Daily Record!  :015:

[Mee]

:015: :015: :015:

[Mee]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and I really hope you manage to form one one day.  :001:

[CaleyD]

I have never, and will never class myself as British.  Despite what they put on my driving license and my passport I ALWAYS fill in nationality as Scottish.  Not through any hatred or dislike for the English, Welsh, Irish but purely from pride in being who I am.

In fact being Scottish and classing myself has such all but saved me from getting a bullet in the head not so many years ago - finding myself in an unfortunate situation and being asked where I was from, had I answered Britain/UK then I have little doubt that I would not be here today or if I was then I'd be taking my meals through a straw - but that's a whole different story.

Flipping the argument on it's head........Where is the incentive for me in being British?  What do I get from Britain that I would not get from simply being Scottish?

Just because some Scottish MP's sold out to the English in 1707 does not mean I should have to class myself as British "whether I like it or not",  It's well documented that the Act of the Union was a farce brought about through English fear that hundreds of years of oppression would come back to bite them on the ar5e if the Scots were to rekindle the Auld Alliance and fight back.  Then, to add further insult the create the Union Flag and place the red cross of St George in the dominant position....so despite the "union" we were to still be suppressed.  We paid, and still pay our taxes to England (although they very kindly gives us a little bit back now).  We're forced to use English money with our own notes being practically useless south of the border.  We have little to no control over the trade of OUR resources with all decisions being made at Westminster.  And to top it all off they have the feckin cheek to mint a coin to commemorate the "union" as if it was something we should all be celebrating.  That's like asking them to celebrate the 4th July as Independence Day.

If Scotland are so insignificant then why were the English so keen to get the Act of the Union passed, why have they spent the 300 years since then doing everything in their power to prevent an uprising, and why in modern day society are they so **** bent on preventing the Scottish People have a say in what they want for their country?

If you were to believe Westminster we'd be far worse off without them, if anything we're a drain on their resources and preventing an Independent Scotland is for our own good.  Take a step back and think about it for yourself instead of relying on the propaganda spewed forth by both sides.  I don't for one second think it will be all as rosy as Salmond tries to make out, but I believe even less that it will be the doom and gloom portrayed by our cousins south of the border.

There's an old saying - better to have tried and failed than never to have tried at all.  I'd die a happier man knowing that we (Scotland) had the balls to stand up and be counted, to take charge of our own future and to stop suckling on the withered up breast of Westminster.

[Kingsmills]

Hear hear.

[Scotty]

an independent nation owned by England like Australia and Canada? 

eh ? Australia and Canada are members of the commonwealth of nations, no more than that.

The Queen is the head of state and has the title "Queen of Canada" amongst her other titles.  She has no power or influence except ceremonial ones.  So while Canada has ties to the UK through history there are no ties in terms of UK (Westminster) being able to "tell" Canada what to do. In this way Canada is the same as many other Commonwealth countries e.g. Australia, New Zealand, India, Jamaica, Nigeria.  The British North America Act took effect on July 1st, 1867 and it was this Act that created "Canada". here's some reading for you : Canadian Independence

As for Scotland ...... As a proud Scotsman, I echo many of the pro-independence comments written here. Heck, we have even found a subject that Hamish and Mee can agree on  :023: I have always wanted to see my country try to make its way in the world on its own and believe we have the resources, ability and people to do that - look around at how many inventions, innovations, or astute or talented people in all walks of life came out of such a small country in the last century. I guess I notice it more over here, but working for an engineering company, I always get the line that "you bloody Scots are everywhere" because there are so many employees in our company with Scottish roots. 

[Johnboy]

Great posts, CaleyD & Scotty.....

To TinCanFan....

Do you really want to see another jumped up a$$hole like Tony Blair taking us into another unnecessary & costly war at the behest of another power crazed US administrator like GWB?

That is the principal reason why the SNP currently enjoy such unprecedented levels of support....

If and when, and up until the UK Government admits that Iraq was just about the biggest mistake any government has ever made, I will continue to give the SNP all the support I can possibly muster.....

[Action Man]

Can someone warn SUMDIMWAN, sorry Tincanfan, not to get me started.  :014:

[Glebeict]

  Canada is more Scottish than English . Read"Great Scots-Howthe Scots created Canada" by Matthew Shaw , and"How the Scots created Canada"by Paul Cowan.  In fact parts of Canada like Glengarry and Cape Breton are said to be more Scottish than Scotland . This means

the old highland culture.

[SMEE]

In fact being Scottish and classing myself has such all but saved me from getting a bullet in the head not so many years ago - finding myself in an unfortunate situation and being asked where I was from, had I answered Britain/UK then I have little doubt that I would not be here today or if I was then I'd be taking my meals through a straw - but that's a whole different story.

Am I the only one here who would like CaleyD to expand on this situation? Am intrigued :024:

[Alex MacLeod]

The cost..........?7 million between now and 2010 when a referendum would take place. A pittance compared to the billions spent on wars that we have no right to be in.

As has been said above, the peoples of this country have the right to decide their own destiny and for politicians to block that right is to go against democracy. The white paper is about giving the people the choice. The opposition politicians fear the outcome of a referendum so will do all in their power to block it.

The SNP are not saying come 2010 we will be independant. They are saying come 2010 the people will be allowed to decide. If the people choose not to support independance then so be it but we want to be allowed that choice.

[CaleyD]

Am I the only one here who would like CaleyD to expand on this situation? Am intrigued :024:

Wrong place at the wrong time in a Northern Irish border town about 7 or 8 years ago.  Bloke lying in the street barely able to breath and bleeding from the head.  I decided to stop and administer first aid while others walked on by.  Turns out he'd been given a doing by a group with a preference for the Gold, White and Green who were standing over the road watching him die and I was spoiling the fun.  It started with them throwing coins and hurling abuse at me and telling me to leave him and then got slightly more serious.  At that point I uttered the most stupid words of my life "shoot me if you like but I'm going to help the guy", they recognised I didn't have an Irish accent and asked me where I was from.  They then said I was very lucky I was a Scotsman.

Ambulance arrived with an armed escort, barely checked the guy over before loading him in the back and getting out of there quick smart.  Officer turned to leave and I asked if they wanted a statement to which he replied "not unless you have a death wish - I suggest you head home for the night".

I also faced a similar, but not quite so brutal, situation after wandering off the main streets in Philadelphia where the discovery that I was a Scotsman turned me from a victim into some kind of long lost best friend of the guys I bumped in to....lol.

Being Scots has become like a security blanket for me and I make a point of pointing it out wherever I travel, and it never fails to amaze me how attitudes change when people realise your not British or English.

[SMEE]

WOW......scary stuff CaleyD!!

[DJS]

It is going to be an interesting period ahead.  It's hard to see a quality candidate in Scottish Labour to replace Jack McConnell and Alex Salmond appears to be a popular First Minister so far.  The Nats clearly have a lot of people to convince regarding the benefits of Independence and I suspect it will never be an overnight thing but more of a drip, drip happening.

The rise of English nationalism will be a key factor over time, I'm convinced.  THe Unionist parties need to start coming up with some serious arguements in favour of the Union and drop the passports at the border, splitting up families, won't be able to see East Enders nonsense.  Time will tell whether they learned their lesson on May 3rd that the Scots are not so dumb as to be frightened by scaremongering.

So, Alex Salmond wants a big conversation.  He seems to be getting it - we're talking about it here after all.  :003:

[Kingsmills]

Looks like Scottish Labour will be pinning their hopes on Wendy Alexander who, to be fair, will be a more formidible opponent than the new High Commissioner to Malawi.