Butcher Criticism

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Well I may as well be the first fecker :thumb04:

I would love to know who exactly is providing Butch and Miss Pass with the local background knowledge as they should be the first fecker/s jettisoned into the Firth via the sewage.

The two saviours are beginning to make a few mystifying decisions and I am concerned as we are in the biggest scrap of our existence and they are making - what I consider to be - errors of judgement.

Why are they not playing Granty and Pavels as a right/left combination - which appears to work better - but insisting in playing Granty as the marker which is clearly not his forte.

This is very serious but how can the Assistant Manager of a National Team - a feckin centre half - continue to play Lionel - That is actually VERY worrying. He must realise that he has Hastings or McBain in the background. I would expect him to look at Hastings experience and pitch him in NOW. I would favour McBain but he is an unknown/untried quantity to Butcher.

Why did he hook Pavels yesterday - that appeared to be the worst decision of his short spell with us - It simply had to be Lionel - He should have gone Rosscoe - Pavels - Munro - Unless Pavels had picked up an injury ?

Surely Black and Kerr are the favoured central midfield

We have no width - playing Proctor and Foran does not provide that - or is it a deliberate defensive ploy ? What is wrong with Morais - or especially what is wrong with Vigurs ? Why didnt he come on yesterday.

Can understand the forward problem BUT why not play Foran as the main man - Imrie isnt the answer and neither is Rooney - yet - with experience maybe ? Why not combine Foran with Obdhiambo and Morais and drop Imrie back or introduce Vigurs.

[caley100]

One hellofalot of questions there mate....

The pressure is beginning to tell unfortunatley, i did wonder a few weeks ago if the players would rise to the challenge, and after yesterday, they dont seem to be.

There were too few players who left their football brains at home yesterday and too many headless chickens running about in ICT strips.

Get rid of Imrie, play Foran up front, and Ditch Proctor who is about as dangerous to opponents as sour milk.

[Brian]

Would agree with Proctor being dropped from current position

Fish out of water comes to mind.

Unfortunately for him, he has been played midfield and centre half this season, neither of which is really his position.

No threat going forward from midfield (accepted he scored goal!)

Only real threat posed from right back but will have to dispose of Tokely

[DanielMacBean]

Imrie should maybe drop to left mid with foran going to right mid

foran is right footed and proctor does absolutely nothing for me.

[starchief]

Here goes:

> Why are they not playing Granty and Pavels as a right/left combination - which appears to work better - but insisting in playing Granty as the marker which is clearly not his forte.

I'd prefer horses for courses myself, rather than one size fits all but fair enough point (some weeks).

> This is very serious but how can the Assistant Manager of a National Team - a feckin centre half - continue to play Lionel - That is actually VERY worrying. He must realise that he has Hastings or McBain in the background. I would expect him to look at Hastings experience and pitch him in NOW. I would favour McBain but he is an unknown/untried quantity to Butcher.

Come on. We all knew it was probably a purple patch but he's been a top player. There's no way he should have been dropped. Now is star is fading, fair enough. Neither Hastings nor McBain are good enough to drop straight back in at the expense of a form player.

> Why did he hook Pavels yesterday - that appeared to be the worst decision of his short spell with us - It simply had to be Lionel - He should have gone Rosscoe - Pavels - Munro - Unless Pavels had picked up an injury ?

Yeah, not too sure. Maybe saving him with the game undoubtedly lost?

> Surely Black and Kerr are the favoured central midfield

Duncan's been one of our best players this season though. Kerr has barely played. In form, as they were, Duncan shouldn't have been dropped. Seems to be going wrong for him, so I'd like Kerr to come back in. Actually, I'd prefer Proctor to have been given his chance there but it should have been done by Brew MUCH earlier.

> We have no width - playing Proctor and Foran does not provide that - or is it a deliberate defensive ploy ? What is wrong with Morais - or especially what is wrong with Vigurs ? Why didnt he come on yesterday.

I can see Proctor's value in defending, even though I disagree. Either right-back or defensive midfield. He doesn't have the engine for right-mid. Foran up front is so obvious, I'm shocked he's still at left. Hes' not going to provide much but can score. Butcher doesn't like inexperience is pressure situations, hence no Vigurs, but McBain has been a top player this season so far and does have the experience.

> Can understand the forward problem BUT why not play Foran as the main man - Imrie isnt the answer and neither is Rooney - yet - with experience maybe ? Why not combine Foran with Obdhiambo and Morais and drop Imrie back or introduce Vigurs.

Foran (or Rooney if unavailable) as a goalhanger with one from Eric, Imrie or Morais to hassle the defence seems ideal to me.

[mainstander]

Well I may as well be the first fecker :thumb04:

I would love to know who exactly is providing Butch and Miss Pass with the local background knowledge as they should be the first fecker/s jettisoned into the Firth via the sewage.

The two saviours are beginning to make a few mystifying decisions and I am concerned as we are in the biggest scrap of our existence and they are making - what I consider to be - errors of judgement.

Why are they not playing Granty and Pavels as a right/left combination - which appears to work better - but insisting in playing Granty as the marker which is clearly not his forte.

This is very serious but how can the Assistant Manager of a National Team - a feckin centre half - continue to play Lionel - That is actually VERY worrying. He must realise that he has Hastings or McBain in the background. I would expect him to look at Hastings experience and pitch him in NOW. I would favour McBain but he is an unknown/untried quantity to Butcher.

Why did he hook Pavels yesterday - that appeared to be the worst decision of his short spell with us - It simply had to be Lionel - He should have gone Rosscoe - Pavels - Munro - Unless Pavels had picked up an injury ?

Surely Black and Kerr are the favoured central midfield

We have no width - playing Proctor and Foran does not provide that - or is it a deliberate defensive ploy ? What is wrong with Morais - or especially what is wrong with Vigurs ? Why didnt he come on yesterday.

Can understand the forward problem BUT why not play Foran as the main man - Imrie isnt the answer and neither is Rooney - yet - with experience maybe ? Why not combine Foran with Obdhiambo and Morais and drop Imrie back or introduce Vigurs.

So this'll be the start of the Butcher Must Go campaign then?

[Guest CaleyJAGGIE]

Would agree with Proctor being dropped from current position

Fish out of water comes to mind.

Unfortunately for him, he has been played midfield and centre half this season, neither of which is really his position.

No threat going forward from midfield (accepted he scored goal!)

Only real threat posed from right back but will have to dispose of Tokely

i think morias should play at right mid.

[gordyfromsneck]

Well I may as well be the first fecker :thumb04:

I would love to know who exactly is providing Butch and Miss Pass with the local background knowledge as they should be the first fecker/s jettisoned into the Firth via the sewage.

The two saviours are beginning to make a few mystifying decisions and I am concerned as we are in the biggest scrap of our existence and they are making - what I consider to be - errors of judgement.

Why are they not playing Granty and Pavels as a right/left combination - which appears to work better - but insisting in playing Granty as the marker which is clearly not his forte.

This is very serious but how can the Assistant Manager of a National Team - a feckin centre half - continue to play Lionel - That is actually VERY worrying. He must realise that he has Hastings or McBain in the background. I would expect him to look at Hastings experience and pitch him in NOW. I would favour McBain but he is an unknown/untried quantity to Butcher.

Why did he hook Pavels yesterday - that appeared to be the worst decision of his short spell with us - It simply had to be Lionel - He should have gone Rosscoe - Pavels - Munro - Unless Pavels had picked up an injury ?

Surely Black and Kerr are the favoured central midfield

We have no width - playing Proctor and Foran does not provide that - or is it a deliberate defensive ploy ? What is wrong with Morais - or especially what is wrong with Vigurs ? Why didnt he come on yesterday.

Can understand the forward problem BUT why not play Foran as the main man - Imrie isnt the answer and neither is Rooney - yet - with experience maybe ? Why not combine Foran with Obdhiambo and Morais and drop Imrie back or introduce Vigurs.

So this'll be the start of the Butcher Must Go campaign then?

Summons up "The Twenty"!

[Ronaldo]

Get Morias and Vigurs in the team and try and play some football, yet to be tried. The alternative is obvioulsly not foolproof enough.

[tm4tj]

Not the Butcher must go period, but Butcher must think long and hard about his team selections and tactics and substitutions.

Duncan was not dropped as far as I am aware, the official line was he had an injury.

I would have thought Kerr should have been on the park, he may at least have been able to create something.

[absent friend]

After the hard feelings engendering, on here, by the '20' - I stated that the club support would never be the same again. Feeling of power and all that!

Look out to our new management team:-

THE '20's' COMIN' T' GET YA!

[Sorted]

After the hard feelings engendering, on here, by the '20' - I stated that the club support would never be the same again. Feeling of power and all that!

Look out to our new management team:-

THE '20's' COMIN' T' GET YA!

Judging by the comments in today's P&J it appears that the tone is much less venemous than that suffered by the previous regime, even allowing for what has been described by some as the worst performance ever by an ICT team in the SPL. On that basis, I would say the guys are safe for at least a fornight!! Be patient AF!!

Edited March 23, 2009 by Sorted

[ICTFCkev]

I don't think it mattered who came off for Fraser to be honest.

The game was lost anyway.

Agree that Proctor is not a winger and we should definitely be looking to inject some pace into the team via Morais, and Odhiambo for Rooney.

Foran upfront, with Imrie on the left wing. These changes, if instilled correctly, could wreak havoc amongst most defences in the SPL.

Also Black, for his sheer determination to leave us on a high note, and Kerr, for that little bit of experience and composure, which Duncan clearly lacks.

On the left back situation.. Well it speaks for itself really.

Agree with what Starchief says in that Lionel Very-Badly did have a few in-form games when he first came in, and it did seem to be a complete transformation.

But anyone who has witnessed his last few performances would surely agree he is not what you want in your defence going into a Relegation Dogfight.

Falkirk exploited it, and there are teams with far better attacking options on the right, that will just rip the p1ss right out of him, if he isn't dropped ASAP.

[tm4tj]

Absolutely, we are still suffering from the Brewster hangover, his legacy will linger for longer and the effects could leave us feeling rough for a while yet.

The remedy is here, but may need some time to take effect, the initial high has worn off and the depression has kicked in. But all is not lost, after all, we are still not bottom of the league yet.

[ICTFCkev]

The remedy is here, but may need some time to take effect, the initial high has worn off and the depression has kicked in. But all is not lost, after all, we are still not bottom of the league yet.

[Sorted]

Absolutely, we are still suffering from the Brewster hangover, his legacy will linger for longer and the effects could leave us feeling rough for a while yet.

The remedy is here, but may need some time to take effect, the initial high has worn off and the depression has kicked in. But all is not lost, after all, we are still not bottom of the league yet.

This always amuses me when club's change managers. Every good result/performance is always down to the new regime's "immediate impact" but when the wheels come off it's purely due to legacy of the old regime and their "incompetence". That's why stepping into this job must have been a dream scenario for TB/MM. Stay up and they are heroes for the rescue, relegated and it's all someone else's fault. Wish my job was like that!

The 64 million dollar question is when does it stop being the old regimes fault?

[tm4tj]

Next season, clean slate, new players, ie Butchers team, thats when to judge him. I do believe we have just enough in the tank to keep us up, but the old regime should have been shown the door earlier to give Butcher more time to craft something.

[ICTFCkev]

Absolutely, we are still suffering from the Brewster hangover, his legacy will linger for longer and the effects could leave us feeling rough for a while yet.

The remedy is here, but may need some time to take effect, the initial high has worn off and the depression has kicked in. But all is not lost, after all, we are still not bottom of the league yet.

This always amuses me when club's change managers. Every good result/performance is always down to the new regime's "immediate impact" but when the wheels come off it's purely due to legacy of the old regime and their "incompetence". That's why stepping into this job must have been a dream scenario for TB/MM. Stay up and they are heroes for the rescue, relegated and it's all someone else's fault. Wish my job was like that!

The 64 million dollar question is when does it stop being the old regimes fault?

When we're safe from the threat of relegation, and TB/MM can look at running the team their own way instead of playing to dig themselves out of a mess someone else left them in.

I'd say the start of next season.

[Sorted]

Absolutely, we are still suffering from the Brewster hangover, his legacy will linger for longer and the effects could leave us feeling rough for a while yet.

The remedy is here, but may need some time to take effect, the initial high has worn off and the depression has kicked in. But all is not lost, after all, we are still not bottom of the league yet.

This always amuses me when club's change managers. Every good result/performance is always down to the new regime's "immediate impact" but when the wheels come off it's purely due to legacy of the old regime and their "incompetence". That's why stepping into this job must have been a dream scenario for TB/MM. Stay up and they are heroes for the rescue, relegated and it's all someone else's fault. Wish my job was like that!

The 64 million dollar question is when does it stop being the old regimes fault?

When we're safe from the threat of relegation, and TB/MM can look at running the team their own way instead of playing to dig themselves out of a mess someone else left them in.

I'd say the start of next season.

Think both u and TMFTJ are right, it is only fair to judge from the start of next season. TB/MM will be given the chance to work with Morais, Gathuessi (if ever fit) and Pavels who were brought in by the previous regime and Kerr, Foran and Eric who they brought in. We should have enough to do the job. Equally, the time has come to stop blaming the old regime.

Edited March 23, 2009 by Sorted

[KingBeastie]

Nobody is calling for Butcher's head, so can we stop these comments about the 20 wanting to run things, fans have opinions - deal with it.

Some people are just annoyed about the result and want to raise points about what players they think could've done better. It's what football fans do.

Personally I feel Saturday was a blip, Falkirk seemed to want it more and I do not think Butcher will stand for that, I'm pretty confident we will not see another display like that.

We lost the battle but not the war, now let's all get behind the team again and do what (barring Saturday) we've been doing so well since TerrynJune took over.

[gordyfromsneck]

Absolutely, we are still suffering from the Brewster hangover, his legacy will linger for longer and the effects could leave us feeling rough for a while yet.

The remedy is here, but may need some time to take effect, the initial high has worn off and the depression has kicked in. But all is not lost, after all, we are still not bottom of the league yet.

This always amuses me when club's change managers. Every good result/performance is always down to the new regime's "immediate impact" but when the wheels come off it's purely due to legacy of the old regime and their "incompetence". That's why stepping into this job must have been a dream scenario for TB/MM. Stay up and they are heroes for the rescue, relegated and it's all someone else's fault. Wish my job was like that!

The 64 million dollar question is when does it stop being the old regimes fault?

When we're safe from the threat of relegation, and TB/MM can look at running the team their own way instead of playing to dig themselves out of a mess someone else left them in.

I'd say the start of next season.

Think both u and TMFTJ are right, it is only fair to judge from the start of next season. TB/MM will be given the chance to work with Morais, Gathuessi (if ever fit) and Pavels who were brought in by the previous regime and Kerr, Foran and Eric who they brought in. We should have enough to do the job. Equally, the time has come to stop blaming the old regime.

No. I think they are still learning what their squad is capable of, the best perumtations and so on. This will take a fair amount of time, but they have no room to experiment just now. Until they get that space, they are still dealing with someone else's legacy.

[AJS]

Would agree with Kerr and Black, Kerr's passing range is better and he has more of an eye for goal than Russell Duncan who for me is proving to be more of a burden with each game.

Think Morais should also play every game between now and the end of the season, his pace and foot work are a handful and every game needs to be played attackingly. I also think that means some sort of left sided player needs to go in on the left wing. Lionels crossing is poor and Foran is a striker, end of. Probably go with Vigurs, just cause McBain's getting a bit done and Imrie's final ball is hopeless each time.

Foran and Imrie up front. Imrie chases after every ball and drags defenders away while Foran wins the headers and also gets into good areas.

Just think it's time for TB to make a freshen up to the team.

[Charles Bannerman]

Why are they not playing Granty and Pavels as a right/left combination?

Why did he hook Pavels yesterday?

Why not combine Foran with Obdhiambo and Morais and drop Imrie back or introduce Vigurs?

Maybe it's because Terry Butcher and Maurice Malpas know a hell of a lot more about running a fotoball team than you do Johndo.

[Yngwie]

They've been sacked several times, IHE hasn't.

[Ronaldo]

fotoball is not his game anyway he is a rugaby man