Not All The Damage Was Under Brewster

[hislopsoffsideagain]

The Mantis makes the critical point here. Our points per game record in the league under TB was better than the average required to make it into the top six. And we still fell short.

Fact is, in a lot of ways the remarkable thing is how close we came to survival. Remember, when Butcher came in we were five points adrift at the bottom and no-one could remember the last time we won a game.

Yes, in the last four games we blew opportunities to get ourselves to safety. But the fact we came so close to escaping the drop is one heck of a feat. And the reason why our impressive record since January wasn't enough is - our record before January, under Craig Brewster.

[DornochCaley]

Even though 9/10 times the league doesnt lie. It does on this occasion. I think St.Mirren Have been the worst team and we got relegated on goal diffrence. A

[WYNESS101]

Even though 9/10 times the league doesnt lie. It does on this occasion. I think St.Mirren Have been the worst team and we got relegated on goal diffrence. A

Should it know be 9/12 since theres 12 teams in it

[TheresNoEsInBlack]

40% Brewster for signing players like Barrowman.

60% the board for not sacking him earlier.

Barrowman was ineffective because he was played by Brewster up front on his own. When at County he scored loads with 2 up front. Its Brewster's fault for not playing to Barrowman's strengths, so I don't think its fair to just say that Barrowman is no use.

Also, the last person we should be blaming for us being relegated is Ross Tokley. It started going wrong when we took back that turncoat Brewster... It became increasingly obvious to many of us fans who are not privvy to what's really happening in the dressing room that Brewster had lost it several weeks before the club finally got the bottle to let him go.

The other absolute scunner is that we have been relegated with 37 points. I think that is the highest points total for a relegated SPL team in the history of the SPL.

Negativity aside, this is the situation in which we find ourselves, and if anyone can get us back up in one year it is Terry Butcher. I for one will be right behind him, Maurice and the squad.

O2B!

[stevico1]

I was raging at Butcher today.

Tokely and Mihaduks- why were they not in their right positions?

Why take McBain off who has experience as a defender and put on Duncan there?

Why take off Morais?

Why sit back like that from 60th min to their goal we never had the ball for more than one pass.

Not easy been a manager and he thought the team he put out would win it, I am not a football manager but was astonished how he played the defence out of position today

[Kingsmills]

I was raging at Butcher today.

Tokely and Mihaduks- why were they not in their right positions?

Why take McBain off who has experience as a defender and put on Duncan there?

Why take off Morais?

Why sit back like that from 60th min to their goal we never had the ball for more than one pass.

Not easy been a manager and he thought the team he put out would win it, I am not a football manager but was astonished how he played the defence out of position today

I too was surprised that he changed what had become the settled defence for the last game.

[dead_ball_specialist]

The 'Butcher bounce' was mainly a result of the players actually trying for a change (rather than just going through the motions as they did to get Brew sacked for 'working them too hard') Charlie Christie had a similar bounce, as did Brewster at the beginning of both of his spells.

Butcher has had better players available to him than Brewster (Pavels, Morais signed by brew just before he left, Eric, Foran, Kerr being brought in just after) and a fair portion of good luck (our wins against Rangers and St Mirren were on the jammy side, in stark contrast to a fair few defeats and draws under Brew where we had been the better side)

Several of Butcher's decisions have been questionable. Dropping Esson for Fraser, relegating Pavels to the bench, playing Tokely at centre half (thus nullifying our attacking threat down the right), playing Kerr ahead of Duncan, playing McBain on the wing, refusing to drop either Proctor or Imrie, banishing Vigurs to the reserves. And let's be honest, under Butcher we've played by far the worst football in the clubs history. It's been bloody awful.

Once the 'bounce' wore off our results have been no better than Brewsters, our last 6 games against the worst teams in the divisions have proudced.. L,D,W,D,L,L

Aberdeen 1 0 ICT

ICT 1 1 Hamilton

St Mirren 1 2 ICT

ICT 1 1 Hamilton

Motherwell 2 2 ICT (motherwell had nothing to play for)

Kilmarnock 1 0 ICT

ICT 0 1 Falkirk

Things are not as black and white as some would like to think. Laying all of the blame for ICTs relegation at the feet of one man is ridiculous.

[acharacleoracle]

I have my doubts about Butcher, he has a poor managerial record.

Since the split ICT have been inconsistent with points dropped and chances to put our league survival to bed missed.

In Brewsters favour the team looked far fitter and 90 minutes was not a problem. Brew used modern day cross training techniques and the monitoring of players as favored by many of the top clubs including Man U but his training methods were seen as overzealous and disliked by some players, he certainly had a poor run of results and his departure looked inevitable.

Since Butcher took over the training regime has been reduced drastically, some would say he has a very old school approach to training and it shows, there were players today who ran of steam with twenty minutes to go. He openly admitted in an interview last week that he had to bring a training session to halt due the players kicking lumps out of each other and were risking injuring one another, all they seem to do is play practice games during training. Of the seven players who came in in January none of them seem particularly fit for purpose, I would single out Kerr as an example of a poorly prepared player, he came in during the January transfer window and four months later he is still not fit!, even from being totally unfit he should have been able to gain enough base fitness to last a game within eight weeks but he is still miles away from that, so I would say the training regime just isn't up to it, the modern game requires well conditioned athletes with the endurance to last the course. I have no doubt that Butcher is a motivator but he failed to handle the players fitness and conditioning and it has cost us dearly.

Some of his decision making was also pretty questionable, he decided that for survival purposes he would have to go with experience so the likes of Foran, Kerr and Morais where given starting slots in favour of the likes of Vigurs, Rooney and Barrowman he then sticks in the likes of an untried youngster in Odhiambo up front and gives the "experienced" Djebi-Zadi a game in place of Hastings,very bizarre. Mihadjuks played several games at centre back pre split and did well to tighten up the defence then he disappeared only to reappear today at right back.

So in summary, I don't believe that our eventual downfall was entirely the work of Brewster, Butchers managerial style is far from the finished article and has to be questioned.

[alimci]

And let's be honest, under Butcher we've played by far the worst football in the clubs history. It's been bloody awful.

No WAY! Worse than the losing run under Brewster??? I have never walked out of a game early in my life, but I twice wanted to walk out after fifteen minutes watching that utter sh*t.

[Jinkystan]

And let's be honest, under Butcher we've played by far the worst football in the clubs history. It's been bloody awful.

No WAY! Worse than the losing run under Brewster??? I have never walked out of a game early in my life, but I twice wanted to walk out after fifteen minutes watching that utter sh*t.

We are a long way from being as bad as we were under brew ... but I think we were much better when Christie was in charge ... a lot of people said he should have cut his teath at a 1st division club ... well here we are !!!

[Johnboy]

So in summary, I don't believe that our eventual downfall was entirely the work of Brewster, Butchers managerial style is far from the finished article and has to be questioned.

That's absolutely right - I might warm to the guy a little more if he could just make an attempt to explain to the support the reasoning behind some of his more bizzarre decisions.

Will we never know why Esson was dropped?

Why he felt Rossco was a better centre back than right back?

Why he had so much faith in Djebi-Zadi

Why Vigurs never came into his reckoning?

Edited May 23, 2009 by Johnboy

[Hamish]

Why does it always have to be the manager's fault? Can it not be the case that the players underperformed or the team we had this season were just not capable of the job, given resources?

[Arbroathawayday]

Why does it always have to be the manager's fault? Can it not be the case that the players underperformed or the team we had this season were just not capable of the job, given resources?

Ever watch Inverness Caldeonian Thistle FC playing under Craig Brewster's managerial reign? Obviously not.

[Harry Chibber]

Absolutely sick of reading this sort of pish... as Mantis has already pointed out Butcher turned us into a team with no hope/belief/direction into a team with top 6 form. Yes there were mistakes but we are never going to have a perfect manager or perfect players, otherwise they wouldn't be with us... we gave it our best and our best wasn't good enough, I'm afraid we just need to take this on the chin and move on

Our fans have been tremendous pre-split and we need to bring that same support into the next season to ensure we bounce straight back. Players like Vigurs, Duff, Wood & Rooney will get their oppertunity and with Butcher at the helm we will have every chance

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

<H4 itxtvisited="1">IBegYourPardew (Charlton Athletic fan)</H4>"How many years do clubs have to sit by and realise ... Terry Butcher is the most inept manager on earth. Like the inverse of Midas ... everything he touches turns to ****. I wish ICT all the best. From another fan with an inept manager. "

[Joe DiMaggio]

<H4 itxtvisited="1">IBegYourPardew (Charlton Athletic fan)</H4>"How many years do clubs have to sit by and realise ... Terry Butcher is the most inept manager on earth. Like the inverse of Midas ... everything he touches turns to ****. I wish ICT all the best. From another fan with an inept manager. "

off the bus

[CELTIC1CALEY3]

It was interesting to watch the Falkirk Chairman, Officials, Yogi and players at the end of the warm up. They all bought into one final team bonded effort as they headed down the tunnel.

Did we see our Chairman go down and walk up to each player to pump them up - no. Many successes and failures are at the margin and he may be wealthy and successful and a former top class shinty player but he does not seem to inspire leadership. Indirectly I have heard comments purporting to be from the Board with regard to their prejudices about certain players so I now expect to see an enormous reality check sweep the club. Sadly the severe loss of income will result in a much slimmed operation, job losses and I trust a revised operating policy and culture.

[kencar]

The 'Butcher bounce' was mainly a result of the players actually trying for a change (rather than just going through the motions as they did to get Brew sacked for 'working them too hard') Charlie Christie had a similar bounce, as did Brewster at the beginning of both of his spells.

Butcher has had better players available to him than Brewster (Pavels, Morais signed by brew just before he left, Eric, Foran, Kerr being brought in just after) and a fair portion of good luck (our wins against Rangers and St Mirren were on the jammy side, in stark contrast to a fair few defeats and draws under Brew where we had been the better side)

Several of Butcher's decisions have been questionable. Dropping Esson for Fraser, relegating Pavels to the bench, playing Tokely at centre half (thus nullifying our attacking threat down the right), playing Kerr ahead of Duncan, playing McBain on the wing, refusing to drop either Proctor or Imrie, banishing Vigurs to the reserves. And let's be honest, under Butcher we've played by far the worst football in the clubs history. It's been bloody awful.

Once the 'bounce' wore off our results have been no better than Brewsters, our last 6 games against the worst teams in the divisions have proudced.. L,D,W,D,L,L

Aberdeen 1 0 ICT

ICT 1 1 Hamilton

St Mirren 1 2 ICT

ICT 1 1 Hamilton

Motherwell 2 2 ICT (motherwell had nothing to play for)

Kilmarnock 1 0 ICT

ICT 0 1 Falkirk

Things are not as black and white as some would like to think. Laying all of the blame for ICTs relegation at the feet of one man is ridiculous.

Good post. Completely agree.

[Johnboy]

The 'Butcher bounce' was mainly a result of the players actually trying for a change (rather than just going through the motions as they did to get Brew sacked for 'working them too hard') Charlie Christie had a similar bounce, as did Brewster at the beginning of both of his spells.

Butcher has had better players available to him than Brewster (Pavels, Morais signed by brew just before he left, Eric, Foran, Kerr being brought in just after) and a fair portion of good luck (our wins against Rangers and St Mirren were on the jammy side, in stark contrast to a fair few defeats and draws under Brew where we had been the better side)

Several of Butcher's decisions have been questionable. Dropping Esson for Fraser, relegating Pavels to the bench, playing Tokely at centre half (thus nullifying our attacking threat down the right), playing Kerr ahead of Duncan, playing McBain on the wing, refusing to drop either Proctor or Imrie, banishing Vigurs to the reserves. And let's be honest, under Butcher we've played by far the worst football in the clubs history. It's been bloody awful.

Once the 'bounce' wore off our results have been no better than Brewsters, our last 6 games against the worst teams in the divisions have proudced.. L,D,W,D,L,L

Aberdeen 1 0 ICT

ICT 1 1 Hamilton

St Mirren 1 2 ICT

ICT 1 1 Hamilton

Motherwell 2 2 ICT (motherwell had nothing to play for)

Kilmarnock 1 0 ICT

ICT 0 1 Falkirk

Things are not as black and white as some would like to think. Laying all of the blame for ICTs relegation at the feet of one man is ridiculous.

Good post. Completely agree.

Seconded....

[rovercaley]

Have to agree with a lot of what been said here about Butcher. The training that Butcher went for was for the defenders he did'nt do a lot of fitness work. Surely training sessions should be about passing/ movement / shooting/ and if a player does not look fit let them stay back and do some extra running etc. Who's role was it to get the midfield and forwards

to link up - why did we never seem to have wide men (wingers) oh ye forgot they were playing as forwards.

Every time you read the papers Butchers idea on training was yep the lads were great in training today very competitive kicking one another around the pitch etc (im all for been competitive but in must be directed in the correct way.

Why could we have not asked Robbo in once or twice a week to help out with the forwards. Why cant Managers (ego's) let them admit they don't know everything and ask for help in the area's they themselves are weak in?

What happens to the players you are not mouth piece's the likes of Vigours - Duff - Rooney all the young one's but are better players then some of the one's Butcher insisted on going with week in week out. - Well they were left out or on the bench. A good manager must be able to see what all his players have and work with them to encourage and get the best out of them not ignore because they don't want to go around shouting and screaming at the rest of there team mates. So hopefully Butcher will have learned a bit more about management .ie man skills and go on to be one of the best.

[Johnboy]

Why could we have not asked Robbo in once or twice a week to help out with the forwards. Why cant Managers (ego's) let them admit they don't know everything and ask for help in the area's they themselves are weak in?

Too late now of course... but what a good suggestion that would have been a few weeks ago.

[stevico1]

The thing is Butcher took us to position where we were almost safe for which he deserves credit for but then things collapsed for which he also has to take some of the blame

[MacBandy]

The 'Butcher bounce' was mainly a result of the players actually trying for a change (rather than just going through the motions as they did to get Brew sacked for 'working them too hard') Charlie Christie had a similar bounce, as did Brewster at the beginning of both of his spells.

Butcher has had better players available to him than Brewster (Pavels, Morais signed by brew just before he left, Eric, Foran, Kerr being brought in just after) and a fair portion of good luck (our wins against Rangers and St Mirren were on the jammy side, in stark contrast to a fair few defeats and draws under Brew where we had been the better side)

Several of Butcher's decisions have been questionable. Dropping Esson for Fraser, relegating Pavels to the bench, playing Tokely at centre half (thus nullifying our attacking threat down the right), playing Kerr ahead of Duncan, playing McBain on the wing, refusing to drop either Proctor or Imrie, banishing Vigurs to the reserves. And let's be honest, under Butcher we've played by far the worst football in the clubs history. It's been bloody awful.

Once the 'bounce' wore off our results have been no better than Brewsters, our last 6 games against the worst teams in the divisions have proudced.. L,D,W,D,L,L

Aberdeen 1 0 ICT

ICT 1 1 Hamilton

St Mirren 1 2 ICT

ICT 1 1 Hamilton

Motherwell 2 2 ICT (motherwell had nothing to play for)

Kilmarnock 1 0 ICT

ICT 0 1 Falkirk

Things are not as black and white as some would like to think. Laying all of the blame for ICTs relegation at the feet of one man is ridiculous.

Good post. Completely agree.

Seconded....

Thirded...... We collapsed after Esson stopped playing and all to often it was due to a packed box, a situation where we always look panicky (defenders as well) when Mikey is in goal. There were rumours on here of a trg ground bust up but how bad has it got to be to make take such an important risk as this.

[The Mantis]

It does worry me about what happened to Esson. I think Mikey's uncertainty in the games following the split was a factor in us not winning games. I think Motherwell are welcome to Mikey if we can keep Esson, but maybe we'll be stuck without a keeper if the rumours are true.

As for Terry and June, well..... they have taken a short term strategy to keep us up (15 cup finals and all that pish). I would give them next season to see if there's progress. I think there's more room for young players like Vigurs in div 1. I certainly hope at SFL level we can dispense with all the desperate long ball rubbish.

At a push, if it doesn't work I would actually fancy 10CC to do a decent job for us in div 1.

Bottom line is, the football has been so pish for the last couple of years I'm looking forward to seeing us play a bit and maybe even with wingers. Is there still a place for Zander in that set-up?

[Jinkystan]

It does worry me about what happened to Esson. I think Mikey's uncertainty in the games following the split was a factor in us not winning games. I think Motherwell are welcome to Mikey if we can keep Esson, but maybe we'll be stuck without a keeper if the rumours are true.

As for Terry and June, well..... they have taken a short term strategy to keep us up (15 cup finals and all that pish). I would give them next season to see if there's progress. I think there's more room for young players like Vigurs in div 1. I certainly hope at SFL level we can dispense with all the desperate long ball rubbish.

At a push, if it doesn't work I would actually fancy 10CC to do a decent job for us in div 1.

Bottom line is, the football has been so pish for the last couple of years I'm looking forward to seeing us play a bit and maybe even with wingers. Is there still a place for Zander in that set-up?

10CC would do a great job for us in the 1st division ...