Niculae Court Case

[CaleyD]

I think you'll all find that some of the worlds biggest and most successful clubs are, in fact, Member Owned/Run.

If you start with Germany, then ALL Football Clubs are at least 51% member owned. Moving on, you can then add Real Madrid, Barcelona and Athletic Bilbao to the list....I'm sure there's many more.

At the Supporters Direct Conference earlier this year a couple of people from the Hamburg Supporters Club gave a presentation on ownership, organisation and regulation....obviously centring discussion around how they do things. What they told us was so far removed from how things happen here that it's on the verge of being unbelievable....things like a Supporters Club that is part of the business and has direct input into the running of the club.

I asked if they had an office at the Stadium and was told "No...we have a whole floor, employ a good few staff and have literally dozens of volunteers". Fans are encouraged to get involved in the day to day running of EVERYTHING and the club/supporters club will even fund apprenticeship type training so if you're unemployed, you can go help there and they will assist you in gaining qualifications which allow you to go out and find other (paid) work. These people will generally volunteer in future with the running of the club and helping people in the same situation they once were.

They are a community/member owned club in every sense of the word....and a pretty successful one at that.

In other words.....this whole myth about needing wealthy owners/shareholders in order to be successful is, to be frank, BS.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Yip - I have met a few Germans who I thought were on the wind up about the facilities at their clubs and their involvement but it is evidently true - and look at the entrance prices, the standing on the terraces and the singing sections / banners etc.

The only thing that worries me is the disappearance of two Hamburgers at a conference attended by Caley D ??

[CaleyD]

It's not all bad if I'm only being blamed for two

[Tichy_Blacks_Back]

I know slightly off topic but following on from the current train of thought....

German football clubs though tend to exist as part of larger sporting clubs (i.e. Hamburger S V) and were originally set up on a community basis to provide a range of sporting opportunities - the same sporting model occurs when you go down the tiers to our equivalent of Highland League clubs (but in those the football element is just another sport). Only in recent years has the football side of the major clubs come to appear to be the main element but in fact the majority are still community clubs.

I spent a few years in Frankfurt and the local club Eintracht Frankfurt is one of those where the web-site today still contains information about the Football Club but also the Other Sports on offer (including Badminton, Boxing, Swimming, Tennis, Handball, Ice Hockey etc)

Eintracht Frankfurt

The set up in Germany is excellent and the sporting club model champions all sports and both club and participants benefit from this. This complete sporting model is (and may always be) foreign to the UK (partly due to our unrelenting focus on profit instead of community enhancement) but a bigger ICT SC may just be one way of increasing community involvement and exposure to the footballing side that many would not normally take any interest in.

Maybe ICT if they had any intention in being a community leader instead of just an outlet could start a trend (although local council support is critical) that other smaller clubs throughout Scotland could mirror. Being just a football club that has gone as far is it will ever go is not enough - more radical change is required and if that is to the benefit of the community as a whole (and the football club also moves forward) then that is to be welcomed.

Won't happen though....

[Scarlet Pimple]

Only two hamburgers eh, Caley D?

Of course, one for you and one for that nice lady you met down at the Herbertstrasse no doubt. Figures. :023:

So in Hamburg the submarine sandwiches have now been replaced by hamburgers have they? Huh!!

Like..the U Boats have been replaced by Newtco Diving Bells then?

Oh, and one other question ..Frankfurt--was that Frankfurt Am Main or Frankfurt An der Oder? It's just that the frankfurters are different in each city... Just asking :005:

Now back at the ranch...

A negotiated settlement would have been the best option all round. But if ICT continue to try to win this case it will have to have documentary evidence to back it up, OR statements backed up by witnesses who have signed legal afficdavits to the effect that they heard whatever is supposed to have been said.

One wrinkle, however, is that nowhere on this thread do I recall any report by any ICT official as having said categorically that "We will not be able to meet his salary next season"or "We cannot meet his salary next season" which is a different matter to something like " We might not be able to .....". The latter is just a speculative statement and supposition whereas the former is much more definitive.

A speculative statement cannot be defined as one which automatically would put the "For Sale" sign up because it relates to a future event which is not currently known to be a fact and which also might never happen at all. So they may have a strong case on that point, saying in their court affidavits that that cannot be held against the club since in fact it was stated merely as an opinion , conveying nothing relating to actual definite future intent.

The statement by the club that Marius was entitled to the percentage is a different matter and cannot now be contested by the club since it is on record. Apparently it is also in the contract. End of story.

I believe Stevico when he says that an offer of a negotiated settlement by either party could have resolved the dilemma amicably without all this rancour and name calling. Yet it appears that Marius gained more from his association with ICT than the club has now received in NET benefits from their association so an offer of a negotiated settlement by Marius would appear to me to continue to be an appropriate and generous course of action for him to make and for the club to accept graciously.

If the club remained obdurate and refused to negotiate, their case could be weakened but for Marius , although an offer from him could be perceived as a weakening of his position, I think that in the long run his approach would be seen to be in a much more favourable light and be to his ultimate benefit.

It might also allow the club to save face because, right now, worrying about that that could be leading them down a dangerous path that could prove to be very costly in the end. Cutting losses, and allowng each party to come out of this with some dignity, seems to me to be the best way to go for both parties.

Will it happen....maybe, but IMHO not likely.

What do you think Stevico? Is that an option now in your view or have things gone too far to be turned round? :023:

[Council Juice]

I think the club has well and truly made a meal of the whole transfer. That we can all agree on. Marius was entitled to a fee and unless the club got it in writing that he initiated a transfer or agreed to waive his fee then they dont really have a hope in hell regardless of whether he did or not. The only thing in black and white is his Marius Niculae's contract and that states he is due his 30% fee so we really should just live with it.

Now, Stevico any chance your good friend, as a thankyou for helping him relaunch his career, would accept installments? Lets say ?1 a year for the next 250,000 years? Hell We'll even throw in 20p extra each year as interest. Think how much he'll make.

If you could just run that by him, see what he thinks...

[stevico1]

Only two hamburgers eh, Caley D?

Of course, one for you and one for that nice lady you met down at the Herbertstrasse no doubt. Figures. :024:

So in Hamburg the submarine sandwiches have now been replaced by hamburgers have they? Huh!!

Like..the U Boats have been replaced by Newtco Diving Bells then?

Oh, and one other question ..Frankfurt--was that Frankfurt Am Main or Frankfurt An der Oder? It's just that the frankfurters are different in each city... Just asking :)

Now back at the ranch...

A negotiated settlement would have been the best option all round. But if ICT continue to try to win this case it will have to have documentary evidence to back it up, OR statements backed up by witnesses who have signed legal afficdavits to the effect that they heard whatever is supposed to have been said.

One wrinkle, however, is that nowhere on this thread do I recall any report by any ICT official as having said categorically that "We will not be able to meet his salary next season"or "We cannot meet his salary next season" which is a different matter to something like " We might not be able to .....". The latter is just a speculative statement and supposition whereas the former is much more definitive.

A speculative statement cannot be defined as one which automatically would put the "For Sale" sign up because it relates to a future event which is not currently known to be a fact and which also might never happen at all. So they may have a strong case on that point, saying in their court affidavits that that cannot be held against the club since in fact it was stated merely as an opinion , conveying nothing relating to actual definite future intent.

The statement by the club that Marius was entitled to the percentage is a different matter and cannot now be contested by the club since it is on record. Apparently it is also in the contract. End of story.

I believe Stevico when he says that an offer of a negotiated settlement by either party could have resolved the dilemma amicably without all this rancour and name calling. Yet it appears that Marius gained more from his association with ICT than the club has now received in NET benefits from their association so an offer of a negotiated settlement by Marius would appear to me to continue to be an appropriate and generous course of action for him to make and for the club to accept graciously.

If the club remained obdurate and refused to negotiate, their case could be weakened but for Marius , although an offer from him could be perceived as a weakening of his position, I think that in the long run his approach would be seen to be in a much more favourable light and be to his ultimate benefit.

It might also allow the club to save face because, right now, worrying about that that could be leading them down a dangerous path that could prove to be very costly in the end. Cutting losses, and allowng each party to come out of this with some dignity, seems to me to be the best way to go for both parties.

Will it happen....maybe, but IMHO not likely.

What do you think Stevico? Is that an option now in your view or have things gone too far to be turned round?

No chance now Scarlett it has gone to far,

I just discussed with Marius his interview in this weeks Highland News or more specifically the interview with George Fraser and Marius is very annoyed at continually been called a lair.

Mr Fraser claims he tried to contact with Marius, Mr Fraser as I said before if you have lost Marius telephone number why did you not contact me for his number, this is how the Daily Record got his number this is how the Highland News got his number. They had a chance at the beginning to sort this but its gone far to far now and in my opinion they have nobody to blame but themselves for complete and utter mismanagement. I have no idea their agenda for letting it get this far, and it looks like they are not finished but as a previous poster said with interest payment, legal fees etc they are shipping Euros by the minute.

Edited October 28, 2009 by stevico1

[PullMyFinger]

I just discussed with Marius his interview in this weeks Highland News or more specifically the interview with George Fraser and Marius is very annoyed at continually been called a lair.

Mr Fraser claims he tried to contact with Marius, Mr Fraser as I said before if you have lost Marius telephone number why did you not contact me for his number, this is how the Daily Record got his number this is how the Highland News got his number. They had a chance at the beginning to sort this but its gone far to far now and in my opinion they have nobody to blame but themselves for complete and utter mismanagement. I have no idea their agenda for letting it get this far, and it looks like they are not finished but as a previous poster said with interest payment, legal fees etc they are shipping Euros by the minute.

Maybe the administrators can negotiate a better deal? :tonguecheek:

[CaleyD]

Many a true word said in jest.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Many a true word said in jest.

Exactly :tonguecheek: - The muppets are hiding the real cost !!

[ICTFCkev]

Can't beleive the money-grabbing b****d in today's Highland News saying he never wanted to leave in the first place. Course he wanted to leave, he admitted when he first came to us he was gonna.

What a heap of bull..

[Georgeios]

We said we couldnt affort to pay him when the O group pulled the plug... so rather than making it hard for the club, he said.... I'll go if you want me to .... why should he take a cut in his wage when he "when played right" was worth his weight in goals.... Our "Powers" were happy to lose 4K from there wage bill that they then had to cough up when the O group walked... so I say Cough up DC!! what did you do with his fee.. and also what happend to the parachut payment that was "put to one side" for the case........

[stevico1]

We said we couldnt affort to pay him when the O group pulled the plug... so rather than making it hard for the club, he said.... I'll go if you want me to .... why should he take a cut in his wage when he "when played right" was worth his weight in goals.... Our "Powers" were happy to lose 4K from there wage bill that they then had to cough up when the O group walked... so I say Cough up DC!! what did you do with his fee.. and also what happend to the parachut payment that was "put to one side" for the case........

What a lot of people don't realise it would have been better for Marius financially to hang on and sign a pre contract with someone at Xmas, the club would have got nothing and he would have got a hefty signing on fee from the club he was going to.

Edited October 29, 2009 by stevico1

[Yngwie]

Possibly, but his stock was at a high point after Euro 2008 and it was the right time for him to move. Had he stayed, maybe he'd only have scored 5 or so goals by the following window, or might have got injured again. We'll never know.

[stevico1]

Possibly, but his stock was at a high point after Euro 2008 and it was the right time for him to move. Had he stayed, maybe he'd only have scored 5 or so goals by the following window, or might have got injured again. We'll never know.

It was the right time for the club to sell him you mean, they said they couldn't afford to pay his wages, yet took Barrowman in who is reputedly earning more.

[Georgeios]

So your saying he was doing us a favour by going first.... we couldnt have had to find the ?4000 + score bungs week in week out untill such time as he left with his pre contract, so where is all the money our club got for him and said they were keeping "If" they lost the case.... lost the case i think they shot themselfs in the foot being so greedy they should have just given the boy what he was due, as we said we would...... hummmm greedy twats!!!

[stevico1]

So your saying he was doing us a favour by going first.... we couldnt have had to find the ?4000 + score bungs week in week out untill such time as he left with his pre contract, so where is all the money our club got for him and said they were keeping "If" they lost the case.... lost the case i think they shot themselfs in the foot being so greedy they should have just given the boy what he was due, as we said we would...... hummmm greedy twats!!!

Georgeios he wasn't earning nearly ?4000 per week

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Of course he was going to leave - Imrie said the same thing before he signed !!! Niculae could easily have waited and coined it in - the bottom line is that the muppets seriously fecked all this up and are continuing to do so - if ya are legally entitled to spondoolachs then that is end of story. A contract is a contract and who's fault is it if the feckin muppets cant feckin understand the content and its consequences. They once again have tried to save face, their solied reputation and their useless erse - and as per feckin usual - the club is brought into disrepute and in financial bovver.

And what are the muppets going to do next - offer hush money out of court so the fans never find out the true cost ? I sincerely hope that Marius stands his feckin ground and all is revealed.

[Georgeios]

I was under the Impression that he was paid by the club and O group, in total it was 4K, however i will take what you say dude, And as you said the point you made about the Barrowloads wage, I'd have lost Barrowloads than Niculae, He is still a legend in my eyes, The way i see it... he did us a favour finding a club and going, but as IEH said our "Powers" are trying to make a mens for there f??k up by trying to make it look like it was him... I wish him all the best and hope he doesnt hold it against the Fans of the club...

[stevico1]

I was under the Impression that he was paid by the club and O group, in total it was 4K, however i will take what you say dude, And as you said the point you made about the Barrowloads wage, I'd have lost Barrowloads than Niculae, He is still a legend in my eyes, The way i see it... he did us a favour finding a club and going, but as IEH said our "Powers" are trying to make a mens for there f??k up by trying to make it look like it was him... I wish him all the best and hope he doesnt hold it against the Fans of the club...

Not at all and if his injury doesn't clear up by them you may well see him at a stadium in Perth watching a cup final in the very near future :)

Edited October 29, 2009 by stevico1

[Georgeios]

I cant make it down, but if I ever bumped in to him again, I would Shake his hand, and buy him a pint!! I still mind when he jamp in to us that time... he loved to score!!

[12th Man]

I would have thought the intention was always to sell him before the contract expired,or was Alan Savage supposed to buy more shares.

I'm sure I read somewhere that he was due another payment from us as a bonus or something at the end of the season, another reason to sell.

Looks like the the SPL parachute payment will be going directly to Marius and the lawyers.

At the time if his contract stipulated that he was to get 30% of the fee so be it.

If he didn't want to go to Kaiserslautern but would rather go to Dinamo Bucharest is that ok, could he have taken a reduction in his cut as the former club offered more cash than Dinamo ?

I don't know about employment law for football players, Rangers wanted to get rid of Boyd and Ferguson and they didn't want to go.So can they say I would rather go to club X, or can they continually say no until there preferred club is mentioned as opposed to suggesting the club they prefer, can you refuse all t&cs to move anywhere and let your contract run out?

Fair play to the board for trying to protect the interests of ICT but if he was due 30% then that what he is due.

His wage was being covered by Alan Savage/Orion, supposedly. ICT would have received cash for Romania reaching the latter stages of euro 2008 and that still leaves the remaining 70% (?210,000? ) ICT got for his sale. My calculator must be faulty because when I add all this up even giving the man ?90,000 he must probably be the cheapest most famous player that ICT will ever have.

So instead, the ?90,000 could become ?230,000, not to mention the bad publicity that ICT have given themselves with regards to getting a big foreign signing in the future.

Being an ICT fan I hope the ruling goes our way but if so lessons have to be learned.

[PullMyFinger]

While under contract, both the club and player must agree a transfer and terms of transfer. Unless of course its ICT and they are leaving the country and then all negotiations and mud slinging are done in the press.

Edit to add:-

Are all the court proceedings not recorded? And if so should it not be possible for us to read the transcript? Can one of our learned friends enlighten me please.

Edited October 29, 2009 by PullMyFinger

[CaleyD]

I remember when being an ICT fan was someting you could be really proud of, something that allowed you to hold your head high during any conversation on football anywhere in the world as people would want to talk about how well we'd done in our climb through the leagues, the big scalps we'd taken in our cup exploits, how tough we were to beat at home and the fact that nobody relished the thought of coming up against us, and how we'd done it all whilst running a financially stable and viable outfit.

Nowadays I dread conversations about ICT as the generally centre around how we seem to rumble from one disaster/pr nightmare to another....Boardroom bust-ups, jobs for the boys, the Brewster fiasco, trying to screw Marius out of the money he's due, our relegation, the fact we're on the verge of financial oblivion etc etc.

It's getting to the stage where it's almost shameful being associated with ICT...when people are throwing the negatives about in conversation I have to sit there and agree with them, there's nothing I can offer to counter the claims they aim at the club.

I can take the ribbing about poor performance on the pitch or a bad result...it's par for the course in being a football fan, but I just want to bury my head when they start on about all the rest. And what gets under my skin even more is that those who have caused and continue to cause the problem hide in the boardroom trying (badly) to spin the stories and pointing the finger of blame at everyone else.

I think it's about time that someone reminded George Fraser of the statement he made when he was appointed Chairman, something along the lines of...."If fans are still talking about the Boardroom in 6 months time, then I've not done my job". Well, I suggest you've not done your job Mr Fraser because the Boardroom at ICT is still very much the #1 topic of discussion, and it's not for any of the right reasons.

[PullMyFinger]

It'll all be sorted when I win the Euromillions tomorrow night anyway. :)