Safe Standing Area/Seats

[CaleyD]

Appreciate we've had a conversation on this before but I'm looking at this thread for ideas on how it could be made a reality at TCS and ask that we avoid the arguments about the rights/wrongs of current rules, stewarding etc and concentrate on what can be done within current parameters.

What do we know about the situation?

We know the SPL have given a green light to the use of the safe standing seat/barriers that are already used elsewhere. Any proposals outwith that would need to be considered on a case by case basis....for that reason I'd like to stick to ideas involving what is already deemed acceptable.

We know that the North Stand isn't a suitable location as the structure is not suited to the installation of the safe standing seat/barriers.

Like it or not, the West Stand is viewed as being suitable for away fans for bigger games and any proposals to use that area risk being met with a little less enthusiasm than elsewhere.

We know that the cost per seat is around £100 (including installation).

We know the club cannot afford to pay for these seats...not unless they have some guarantee that they will make the money back pretty much straight away.

We know seats cannot be installed as a singly and need to be done in blocks.

Accepting the above information/restrictions, what are the options?

Location - We seem to be pretty much restricted to using the Main Stand...and given that we use the uncovered South Wing for some away games then I believe the most acceptable proposal would be for installation in the uncovered North Wing.

Cost - As the club don't have the means to fund it directly then it falls to those who want it to pay. Would those looking to stand at games be willing to pay for them? I don't know what the club would be willing to consider in this regard, but for the sake of argument let's say that season ticket prices would be on a par with the North Stand and you had to pay £100 (one off in first season) to cover the cost of having your "standing seat" installed.

Would people be willing to commit that money in advance to allow purchase and installation to take place over the closed season?

Trade Off - In an idea world we would have such areas installed in the North Stand, somewhere behind the goal area, but it's not an ideal world and the North Wing of the Main Stand would not be viewed as a "prime location". Would people rather have no standing than stand there?

What's more, as there's no roof in that area then you are going to get rained/snowed on. Let's forget the idea of having a roof at this stage, if we can't afford to install seats then we definitely can't afford to put in a roof!!! Personally I think those wanting to stand are more "hardcore" and a bit of wind/rain/snow isn't going to phase them too much. What's more, with the prevailing wind then a roof serves little purpose anyway. Would people rather have no standing than stand somewhere that's not covered?

Possible Side Benefit - Whilst thinking about the above my attention was caught by the ongoing plight of fans who use wheelchairs/scooters and can't manage the steps in the stands. One of the suggestions to offer better facilities in this regard has been the installation of dugout type shelters, however these shelters aren't suitable for placing in front of stands as they obscure the view of the first row or two of seats behind them. The ideal location for such structures would obviously be in front of a standing area where they would not pose the same problem and we can kill two birds with the one stone.

Would be good to get other people's thoughts on all the above and also any alternative ideas they might have which fall (largely) within the criteria/limitations that exist and which we're not likely to get changed any time soon!!!

Once the thread has run for a while and people have had chance to read/comment then I'll pull all the info together and prepare a discussion document to take to the Supporters Trust and ask if they can then progress it with the Club.

[Rasczak]

With regards to the cost of installation, it is my understanding that with the type of "seats" being talked about that you actually get more standing capacity than sitting capacity. For a section of 40 seats when in the sitting configuration, (as would be needed for UEFA competitions ), you would be able to have maybe 72 standing spaces. Figures taken from http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/the-case-for-safe-standing/case-for-3

With that in mind if there was to be an extra set-up fee for the first season ticket in that area then it may not need to be the full cost of the installation. Alternatively there could be 2 ticket options, pay £100 extra on the first season, and possibly a bit more subsequently, and you get the seat when in that configuration, or have no set-up cost, possibly cheaper ticket, but you don't get a spot for all seated games.

Of course you would have to take walk ups who want to stand into the figures, but it might give more leeway on the costs.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Rasczak

[Alex MacLeod]

There are a lot of good points in what you say CD. I have'nt been an ST holder before due to work but, because I retire this year, I will likely go for one next season and I'd happily suffer the weather to stand in that area. I also think that a noisey north wing could generate a better atmosphere around the rest of the stadium.

It may well be that many people who can afford a North stand ST cannot afford to go the bit extra to help fund this, and many others who cant justify a ST against the number of games they can attend, so I'd be inclined to suggest that, if the club agree in principle, we have some fund raising events, perhaps organised through the Supporters Trust and Club. Could we fund and fill two hundred seats in this area? I'd also suggest that, as a trade off for the funds raised, the club give the fans the wall that traverses the area for flags and banners. A red and blue brigade area to rival the evil twins as it were.

[+DoofersDad]

I don't think this is the answer for 2 reasons. Firstly, it is not where people want to be. Folk prefer a more central position and don't want to be away in a corner where you don't get quite the same overview of the game. Secondly, your "hardcore" argument is correct only up to a point. Those who like standing may be a little more "hardcore" but they aint stupid. I am all in favour of standing but give me a choice of sitting in the dry or standing in the rain and I'm afraid my bum will be on the plastic. So whilst applauding your intiative and effort in this, I personally don't think there will be enough hardy souls to make this work. I hope I can be proved wrong.

To me, the frustrating thing is that there should be no need to consider these elaborate arrangements. The tragedies which led to all seater stadia occurred in huge grounds with poor crowd control. Proper crowd control and far greater number of barrier rails on the terracing would prevent disasters even in the bigger grounds. The answer is for the authorities to wake up, do a proper risk assessment and accept that the real reason for the loss of life in the past was not terracing per se - but I can't see that happening anytime soon.

Is the other option not simply to have some sections of the existing seating where you are allowed to stand and others where you are required to sit. People would have a simple choice and we would all pay the same and no extra cost or work would be involved.

[PaderbornCaley]

Quite a few teams let us stand now anyway. It's shirley safe enuff to simply state a quarter of the North Stand is reserved for people who wish to stand. Or is that not 'safe standing'? Do these 'safe' seats HAVE to be used?

[CaleyD]

With regards to the cost of installation, it is my understanding that with the type of "seats" being talked about that you actually get more standing capacity than sitting capacity. For a section of 40 seats when in the sitting configuration, (as would be needed for UEFA competitions ), you would be able to have maybe 72 standing spaces. Figures taken from http://www.safestand...ding/case-for-3

With that in mind if there was to be an extra set-up fee for the first season ticket in that area then it may not need to be the full cost of the installation. Alternatively there could be 2 ticket options, pay £100 extra on the first season, and possibly a bit more subsequently, and you get the seat when in that configuration, or have no set-up cost, possibly cheaper ticket, but you don't get a spot for all seated games.

Of course you would have to take walk ups who want to stand into the figures, but it might give more leeway on the costs.

Interesting information in regards to the seating capacity v standing capacity. If the SPL aren't looking to maintain a one person one seat ratio (and I will check up on that) in these areas then it might open up further options. You could split the cost, and using the ratio you have given it would work out at about £55 per person. You could easily get around the "who gets the seat" problem by giving priority to other seats further back in the same area...seats which are not used at present and which wouldn't be used if they had people standing in front of them.

If someone purchases a season ticket with the "standing seat" add-on then I don't think the club would be looking for them to pay any extra in future seasons to maintain priority for the seat (if ever in a situation where it needed to be used). So long as they renew ticket in future years then they could/should keep priority for having forked out in the first place.

Asking/expecting the club to pay for the installation of the new seating in advance and having no set-up cost isn't going to be an option in the current financial climate...a climate that is only set to get a bit tighter in the foreseeable.

Some food for thought in all that though and certainly if the standing v seating numbers thing plays out then it gives a couple more options.

[CaleyD]

There are a lot of good points in what you say CD. I have'nt been an ST holder before due to work but, because I retire this year, I will likely go for one next season and I'd happily suffer the weather to stand in that area. I also think that a noisey north wing could generate a better atmosphere around the rest of the stadium.

It may well be that many people who can afford a North stand ST cannot afford to go the bit extra to help fund this, and many others who cant justify a ST against the number of games they can attend, so I'd be inclined to suggest that, if the club agree in principle, we have some fund raising events, perhaps organised through the Supporters Trust and Club. Could we fund and fill two hundred seats in this area? I'd also suggest that, as a trade off for the funds raised, the club give the fans the wall that traverses the area for flags and banners. A red and blue brigade area to rival the evil twins as it were.

Fundraising for it would be a tough sell as you are effectively asking other people to pay for something they won't necessarily benefit from using themselves...but it's not out of the question, it just wouldn't be a bucket rattling type fundraiser. It would also need to be fundraising that doesn't take away from money already coming in...so a bit more thought/work required over and above what is being done already.

Sponsorship would be another option, £20,000 would pay for the conversion of 200 seats and (assuming the standing ration was allowed) provide 360 standing spaces....an easier sell because it would likely be the most active concentration of fans and as such would get more air time during televised games etc than other parts of the ground....however this would also need to be "new money" and not just existing advertisers moving boards there.....unless willing to pay a premium over and above what they pay already.

I think the club would give fans an area for flags and banners anywhere they like so long as it isn't obscuring advertising boards....with or without the introduction of a standing area.

[lukemackay]

i dont know the ins and outs of it

but if the club were to trial it i would like them to trial it in section 'E' and if it works we could the look into a safe standing west stand.

something along those lines.

offer cheaper tickets in section 'E' as a trial to try attract some interest and fill the section and hopefully create some atmosphere at the same time.

[CaleyD]

I don't think this is the answer for 2 reasons. Firstly, it is not where people want to be. Folk prefer a more central position and don't want to be away in a corner where you don't get quite the same overview of the game. Secondly, your "hardcore" argument is correct only up to a point. Those who like standing may be a little more "hardcore" but they aint stupid. I am all in favour of standing but give me a choice of sitting in the dry or standing in the rain and I'm afraid my bum will be on the plastic. So whilst applauding your intiative and effort in this, I personally don't think there will be enough hardy souls to make this work. I hope I can be proved wrong.

To me, the frustrating thing is that there should be no need to consider these elaborate arrangements. The tragedies which led to all seater stadia occurred in huge grounds with poor crowd control. Proper crowd control and far greater number of barrier rails on the terracing would prevent disasters even in the bigger grounds. The answer is for the authorities to wake up, do a proper risk assessment and accept that the real reason for the loss of life in the past was not terracing per se - but I can't see that happening anytime soon.

Is the other option not simply to have some sections of the existing seating where you are allowed to stand and others where you are required to sit. People would have a simple choice and we would all pay the same and no extra cost or work would be involved.

I hope (and intend) to prove you wrong on paragraph one...no offence, but I am pretty determined to make this happen. Not necessarily as laid out in the opening post, but in some form.

Fully appreciate your other comments and arguments, but as I said in the opening post this thread isn't the place for those discussions as I really want to concentrate on what could be done to make it a reality within the options/criteria that are on the table at the moment. The other arguments have been dragging on for years and are set to drag on for years yet....I'd rather not spend all my time banging my head against that particular brick wall whilst ignoring the potential opportunities that exist here and now. That's not to say that the fight for common sense should not continue...just not on this thread if you don't mind...thanks.

[CaleyD]

Quite a few teams let us stand now anyway. It's shirley safe enuff to simply state a quarter of the North Stand is reserved for people who wish to stand. Or is that not 'safe standing'? Do these 'safe' seats HAVE to be used?

Yes, the "safe seats" do have to be used. They have to be used because they can be locked away safely when the area is being used for standing and because they incorporate the crush barriers that are needed between each row of people.

What I don't know (yet) is why we could not simply rip seats out and put in Crush Barriers only. We could do that and maintain the 6000 seats needed by the SPL and just not use those areas when we get in to Europe....although a venture in to Europe would surely fund the installation of the safe seats so the area could be used!!! For now however, we have to work on the basis that "safe seats" need to be installed.

[CaleyD]

i dont know the ins and outs of it

but if the club were to trial it i would like them to trial it in section 'E' and if it works we could the look into a safe standing west stand.

something along those lines.

offer cheaper tickets in section 'E' as a trial to try attract some interest and fill the section and hopefully create some atmosphere at the same time.

Luke, you need to go back and read the opening post where I do my best to explain the ins and outs (as I am aware of them at this time).

Safe Standing seats cannot be installed in the North Stand...and even if they could then giving cheap tickets is counter productive to the aim/need to raise the money to have them installed.

If you mean Section E in the main stand, then this isn't an option as it would involve displacing existing season ticket holders (again) to cater for those who wish to me a bit more vocal...not likely to happen, IMO.

[L_G]

Quite a few teams let us stand now anyway. It's shirley safe enuff to simply state a quarter of the North Stand is reserved for people who wish to stand. Or is that not 'safe standing'? Do these 'safe' seats HAVE to be used?

Yes, the "safe seats" do have to be used. They have to be used because they can be locked away safely when the area is being used for standing and because they incorporate the crush barriers that are needed between each row of people.

What I don't know (yet) is why we could not simply rip seats out and put in Crush Barriers only. We could do that and maintain the 6000 seats needed by the SPL and just not use those areas when we get in to Europe....although a venture in to Europe would surely fund the installation of the safe seats so the area could be used!!! For now however, we have to work on the basis that "safe seats" need to be installed.

As far as I'm aware 1 seat (folded up or otherwise) = 1 space, you would have to buy that space/seat. Spaces would have to be allocated to avoid overcrowding. I believe it could be done and possibly the West Stand would be the best option, however if you are going to move people from existing seats, there would be no increase in revenue for the club so we would need to look at the options to fund this. As Don says the Supporters Trust would be the vehicle to take this forward, so let us know your thoughts and we'll see what can be done.

Sadly the days of the old terracing are gone, but this may be a compromise worth exploring

[lukemackay]

ok read through it and a big mybad on my part

in which case i would put it in the north wing close to the north stand to translate some atmosphere from the standing area to the north stand and hopefully get the mainstand going aswell it could create a fortress with everyone joining in.

that would be my prime location of the suitable places to put it.

funding wise is the only question i have is wether people would be willing to pay an extra £100 for their ticket.

there would have to be some perks offered. like money off the actual season ticket or a free name on their seat(or whatever their area would be called) that would be something that would be up to the club.

[+DoofersDad]

Happy to keep discussion of wider points to another thread. If this goes ahead I'll be happy to use the area in the corner to stand on occaisions when it is dry. I don't get to very many games due to other commitments. I hope I will be in a position to attend more regularly in a couple of years time but I'm afraid the wish to remain dry will take precedence over my wish to stand.

Hopefully there will be more youngsters like Luke who will revel in the atmosphere a standing area can create and this will in turn encourage others to share in that experience. I wish you every success in this project.

[CaleyD]

It would be pretty naive to try and push for something if the demand is not there.

For that reason it's important to gauge what the level of interest is, what people are willing to commit to, what they are not willing to commit to etc etc.

I'm not just looking for those interested to reply, it needs the feedback from as many as possible, whatever their thoughts and position.

[sotonict]

We could definitely turn the away end into terracing? Like peterborough, brentford and morecambe. Would get more away fans in the area = equals more money (i know tickets would be cheaper) as they would buy more food, drink, programmes etc. And then like the above three teams grounds the posher people can still use the seats in main stand.

Its just down to money :(

[CaleyD]

Have to admit that I thought we might have had a bit more interest in this subject, going to be really tough to convince the club that they need to invest the time and effort if we can't muster more than 2 or 3 people to who are up for some kind of standing area.

[Huisdean]

I think part of the problem with lack of response is that many fans now don't know what it is like to stand at matches and therefore cannot appreciate the huge difference it makes to the atmosphere. I speak as someone who has been in crows over a 100000 at Hampden and believe it or 45000 at Pittodrie.

The problem with only converting a small area, such as the uncovered main stand is that I don't think it would work. You either need to convert the whole North Stand or Main Stand to make this work. The only other possible alternative would be to develop the whole of the West Stand/Terracing to be fitted with these type of seats and I don't think that can be done financially in the current climate. However, if the club were willing to trial this, and the manufacturer of the seats could be persuaded to strile a deal whereby they provide the seats to a trial ground on the basis they will get more work on the back of that, then that may be an avenue worth pursuing.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Is the bottom line not that the club simply cannot afford this ? Placing it in an uncovered area will not work but again it looks like that is the only suitable area for it to be put - another real negative. The ideal place would be a section in the North Stand or under cover in the so called West stand. The only probable way forward is sponsorship - which again is extremely doubtful.

I would of course be interested but I simply doubt that we will ever be able to replicate the away support at TCS - for a variety of reasons which have all been given previously.

[CaleyD]

North Stand is out for reasons beyond anyone's control....short of rebuilding the stand using different construction methods.

West Stand isn't totally out of the question, I just think that so long as the club view it as a way to make an extra few quid when the OF come calling then, as much as we might not like it, then removing income does not make sense.

Yeah, the bottom line is pretty much that the club cannot afford to fund the cost of the seats....certainly not to the extent that would be needed to create the nucleus for the atmosphere it could generate.

Not sure the covered/uncovered argument is such a big deal after all other than the back of the North Stand, you pretty much get wet whenever there's a hint of wind with the rain regardless of a roof.

I don't think Sponsorship should be seen as that doubtful....all depends on how you sell it. Done on the basis that you will effectively be gathering all the noisiest, most active supporters in one place and any TV crowd shots and other people's attentions over and above those focused on the game, will be drawn to that area then it's going to be prime advertising location.....amazing what someone would pay for guaranteed exposure like that.

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

Have to admit that I thought we might have had a bit more interest in this subject, going to be really tough to convince the club that they need to invest the time and effort if we can't muster more than 2 or 3 people to who are up for some kind of standing area.

Believe it or not but not all ICT fans use this site , sorry to burst your bubble .

[+bughtmaster]

I am pretty certain most fans would enjoy a standing area but !

Why spend money now when there are still thoughts of a new stadium floating about, this thread should be raised again when the question of move or stay is decided. As for now let's be satisfied with what we have got.

[CaleyD]

Because they could be removed and used there!!!

Following up on another thought I had about possible options.....how many (qualified) welders do we have among the fans?

[+Wanderer]

I prefer to stand...

I'd pay a premium to do so,,,(rediculous though that might seem)

Or watch my team in a lower league,,,

(honestly, I'm begining to think that might be preferable)

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

_{SFL it is then - CD, can you let the Supporters Trust know please.}