Kelty/ Is this a joke - merged thread

[Charles Bannerman]

48 minutes ago, STFU said:

Having spent a chunk of the evening reading up on it the rule requiring all 42 teams to have a bronze license was voted in unanimously by all SPFL clubs last July. If clubs felt the rule or penalty was draconian they had the opportunity to vote it down or have it ammended.

That also means this is not a penalty being applied to anyone after the fact and all clubs had a year to get their house in order.

The need to be insolvency event free for three years to obtain a bronze (or above) license is not a new thing.

I also see within the licensing criteria that the club will have had to submit audited accounts last month in order to maintain a bronze (or above) license.

 

I’m astonished that all 42 clubs voted for that last year since it seems rather like an entire turkey farm voting for Christmas. I’m equally astonished that ICT, knowing that they were in a financial mess, voted for what even then might have been a fairly likely cause of their own demise and you could possibly include Edinburgh City there as well.

It takes a long time for a club to turn a financial oil tanker round, so suddenly to have rules that knock a club out for three years seems bizarre. It doesn’t even give clubs time to make drastic changes such as going part time that would be preferable to total oblivion.

I’m also curious about why the accounts are late if that is also a “sacking offence”. I can’t think of many reasons other than the auditor refusing to sign them off that would force having to face such a dramatic penalty.

By the way, I reckon that the deadline for the next AGM is 26th July since these have to take place within 15 months of their predecessor according to the Articles of Association, and the last one was on 26.4.23. This would mean that notice would have to be served by 5th July, but the last one was due in December 2022 so was four months late. In December 2022 I wrote, as a shareholder to Scot Gardiner asking for information on this…. I received no reply.

[STFU]

There's a good article covering it in the P&J

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/sport/football/highland-league/6373182/spfl-rule-creates-another-barrier-to-highland-league-clubs/

I can only think that the Turkeys voting weren't fully up to speed on club licensing requirements and were more interested in self preservation by making it harder for Highland and Lowland league teams to come up.  This is covered in the article.

[Yngwie]

12 minutes ago, Charles Bannerman said:

I’m astonished that all 42 clubs voted for that last year since it seems rather like an entire turkey farm voting for Christmas. I’m equally astonished that ICT, knowing that they were in a financial mess, voted for what even then might have been a fairly likely cause of their own demise and you could possibly include Edinburgh City there as well.

It takes a long time for a club to turn a financial oil tanker round, so suddenly to have rules that knock a club out for three years seems bizarre. It doesn’t even give clubs time to make drastic changes such as going part time that would be preferable to total oblivion.

I’m also curious about why the accounts are late if that is also a “sacking offence”. I can’t think of many reasons other than the auditor refusing to sign them off that would force having to face such a dramatic penalty.

By the way, I reckon that the deadline for the next AGM is 26th July since these have to take place within 15 months of their predecessor according to the Articles of Association, and the last one was on 26.4.23. This would mean that notice would have to be served by 5th July, but the last one was due in December 2022 so was four months late. In December 2022 I wrote, as a shareholder to Scot Gardiner asking for information on this…. I received no reply.

The accounts being late is almost certainly because of the lack of certainty as to whether the club is a going concern. It seems increasingly certain that we are NOT a going concern.

As for the AGM, I think everyone at the club has more important things to deal with over the next few weeks - yes it is supposed to happen in a prescribed timescale, but asking about the AGM right now feels like a a passenger on the Titanic heading to the lifeboats and asking what time breakfast will be served!

[Achfary]

ICT's SFA license was approved in December last year (Silver) which covers the upcoming season, and it's not 'lost' as Dougal says, but more as STFU says, it would just not be awarded again for next season

When ICT next has its SFA review, in (or after) Dec 2024, STFU is right that the SFA would not license a club that had experienced an "insolvency event" in the preceding three years, under almost all circumstances*.

It is not that clear cut though, as Fraz and Snorbens point out, the SPFL rules and regulations allow for a waiver, relaxation or period of grace  - and it appears from those rules that the SPFL Board have full authority to permit a club to continue (but the opposite also holds...).  

As IBM and Galiant Grunt highlighted, Kelty (!) and Edinburgh City, have gone beyond the March deadline, are not Bronze, and are getting re-reviewed this month, so may need this waiver, relaxation, period of grace.

Being at the whim of the SPFL Board as to whether ICT can still be in the league next season, or the one after that, regardless of a 15 points deduction in this, is reason enough to avoid 'an insolvency event'!   

The Times reporting over the weekend that Duncan Ferguson was hired for between £5000-7000 per week is scandalous.  

If there is a potential reputable new consortium wanting to come in, and they are put off because the loans from directors and Chair to hire Ferguson, Gardiner etc are called in, then while ICT may be financially bankrupt, Ross and the directors will be morally so.

*unless a sole creditor got a court order, but it was rectified within a fortnight - no harm, no foul

[CaleyHedgehog]

Thanks to Doofer's Dad, Achfary, Fraz, Scotty and all those online who are trying to make sense of where we stand as far as the rules and law are concerned. 

Personally, I couldn't even begin to understand all of this, so I am grateful to you all for doing your best to protect our club.

[CELTIC1CALEY3]

It is quite useful to reflect on what was considered to be the Directors perception up to 31st May 2024 as predicted in the last set of published accounts. 

 

[IBM]

21 minutes ago, CELTIC1CALEY3 said:

It is quite useful to reflect on what was considered to be the Directors perception up to 31st May 2024 as predicted in the last set of published accounts. 

 

Aye and that has been a load of bulsh1t. 

[+DoofersDad]

At that point, it was probably reasonable to be optimistic about the future. The big (and possibly, fatal) mistakes were firstly, a lack of attention to detail in the application and contracting processes and secondly, to assume the anticipated funds would materialise and to commit the money before we actually had it.  

Of course, there is always risk associated with business investment, but the Board were relying on income which was dependent on decisions taken by others over whom they had no say.  In such circumstances, it is particularly important to ensure all paperwork is watertight.  Clearly, it wasn't.

With the financial position of the club as it was and the now apparent unwillingness of the directors to pump more money into the club, they should simply have kept things ticking over till the anticipated windfalls arrived.  Instead, they sacked a manager just 6 games after having given him a new contract and replaced him with a big name ex-player with a very poor managerial record. In doing this they had to commit huge sums of money in paying off Dodds and those we went with him, whilst committing even larger sums to pay Fergusson and his team.  Those who displayed this incompetence and recklessness need to be the first to dip deep into their pockets to help dig the club out of the mess for which they are responsible.

[CELTIC1CALEY3]

Directors have a duty of care not to overtrade.

On the 21 December 2023 when Morrison submitted his floating charge over property, assets and rights he also applied a negative pledge. This put him in a very strong position i.e. defined as 'an agreement between the owner of a charged asset and a lender stating that the owner will not create further security without the agreement of that lender.'

In addition both he and Munro applied that pledge over shares held by the borrower. At the moment the appeal on the battery farm does not appear to have been submitted so both pledges will be impediments to solvency.

[Yngwie]

The floating charge is entirely normal in business, and you can’t pledge the same assets as security to more than one lender hence the negative pledge.

The club only owns 1% of the battery farm company having cashed in for £250,000, so the appeal isn’t really our problem any more. Morrison’s security over the battery farm shares now seems worthless, and he actually paid cash to the club to buy 1/3rd of something that he could have claimed full ownership of under the charge he had.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Will we ever debate football again ? I feel like I have been doing a Law degree in the last few weeks

[caley100]

It's really feckin sad, Just waiting for the hangmans noose to tighten while looking hopefully at the door.

[Achfary]

How to avoid administration?

1) Ross and co. state - either publicly or via the Insolvency Practitioner and to potential new boards - that they would write off their loan accounts in order to save the club from administration/help facilitate a takeover.

2) A new, competent board with the necessary nous, gravitas and resources are quickly attracted by that, and put in place, and able to soothe any ruffled feathers among other creditors

3) 1 & 2 allows the insolvency practitioner to state an administrator is not needed (denying the SPFL Board a whiff of an 'insolvency event')

The fact that the board and CEO feel the need to try and 'discourage' the press from making enquiries doesn't instill confidence that no.1 is on their minds.  The wall of silence doesn't help, and so neither of these actions/inactions suggest paving the way for a seamless transition of power to no.2  

If the IP appoints an administrator, even if a flood of season ticket money, Stronger Together monies, and new owners/benefactors came in and steadied the ship post-administration, the SPFL board could just cite a lack of SFA licence and allow two teams in for 25/26 season.

The current SPFL Board may have no such intention - but it could change - the sword of Damocles would be hanging over ICT until the licence was able to be re-obtained, in December 2027 (or about then)

Thus, administration must be averted at all costs, and 1 & 2 need to happen - very quickly. That's assuming liquidation isn't where the current board's AWOL accounts point.

'No news is good news' (even through press intimidation)? 

[Yngwie]

22 minutes ago, Achfary said:

Thus, administration must be averted at all costs

At all costs? Including training in the central belt to save a 6 figure running cost? Our fans would prefer administration/oblivion to that.

[Achfary]

17 minutes ago, Yngwie said:

At all costs? Including training in the central belt to save a 6 figure running cost? Our fans would prefer administration/oblivion to that.

Well quite - hoist by my own petard.

All sane costs, e.g., ones that don't also cause administration, just by a different route.  So, poor choice of words on my part.

[Charles Bannerman]

3 hours ago, Yngwie said:

At all costs? Including training in the central belt to save a 6 figure running cost? Our fans would prefer administration/oblivion to that.

For some reason, administration and moving to Kelty have sometimes been presented as alternatives ever since the meeting in the Social Club - where I do believe that a totally hypothetical indication was indeed made preferring admin. This sentiment also came out in the local media and I think diffused south as a result and has been taken as literal, but I don’t think that in real, practical terms these were ever alternatives. The club’s finances have been hovering on the edge of a precipice for years and I think that, once the Kelty wheeze emerged, one, neither or both of these outcomes were all possible permutations, although the last one is now eliminated.

I’m sure that those within the stadium who were promoting Kelty were quite happy for it to be thought that it would prevent admin, and if admin does happen, I wouldn’t be surprised to see that attempts to attribute blame for it might include the demise of Kelty.

However I think that the Kelty wheeze is simply the latest failed or impractical attempt to make the books balance and should therefore be filed alongside the Concert Company, the Battery Farm, letting the car park and the Green Freeport business.

Edited June 10 by Charles Bannerman

[Scotty]

43 minutes ago, Charles Bannerman said:

However I think that the Kelty wheeze is simply the latest failed or impractical attempt to make the books balance and should therefore be filed alongside the Concert Company, the Battery Farm, letting the car park and the Green Freeport business.

This. 

[+DoofersDad]

1 hour ago, Charles Bannerman said:

For some reason, administration and moving to Kelty have sometimes been presented as alternatives ever since the meeting in the Social Club - where I do believe that a totally hypothetical indication was indeed made preferring admin. This sentiment also came out in the local media and I think diffused south as a result and taken as literal, but I don’t think that in real, practical terms these were ever alternatives. The club’s finances have been hovering on the edge of a precipice for years and I think that, once the Kelty wheeze emerged, one, neither or both of these outcomes were all possible permutations, although the last one is now eliminated.

I’m sure that those within the stadium who were promoting Kelty were quite happy for it to be thought that it would prevent admin, and if admin does happen, I wouldn’t be surprised to see that attempts to attribute blame for it might include the demise of Kelty.

However I think that the Kelty wheeze is simply the latest failed or impractical attempt to make the books balance and should therefore be filed alongside the Concert Company, the Battery Farm, letting the car park and the Green Freeport business.

Exactly.  To my mind it was never an either/or issue.  Whilst the club maybe presented it as such, the widely ridiculed Kelty option was presented as a done deal.  There was absolutely no argument presented as to why it would save the sums stated or why it would produce a more competitive team.  In reality, it was more likely to project us towards administration than staying put would.  The value of the scheme to the Board seems to be that administration can now be blamed on the fans for rejecting the latest brilliant plan for keeping the club solvent.

[Achfary]

Now the board plays the fiddle while Rome burns.  

Ferguson has been paid how much since being hired - £180,000 according to the lower estimate by The Times?  That's before all the extras that come associated with it.  A quarter of a million a year.

God only knows what ever-increasing sum Gardiner has managed to weasel out of the club in the last five years.  

While the club has always been up and down, looking for a transfer fee here or a cup run there, the two expenditures above should never have been allowed.  Then there's Dodds and Robertson's too.

If ifs and buts were candies and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas.  

When (if?) admin is triggered, the straw is because the board recklessly (and needlessly) spent big, thinking they'd have millions from Battery Farm and Statkraft.  They gambled, and as usual, it's the fans who lose.

Edited June 10 by Achfary

[+Fraz]

https://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/sport/ridgers-hurt-by-terrible-ict-communication-352847/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Shameful but exactly what I'd expect.  

[IBM]

25 minutes ago, Fraz said:

https://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/sport/ridgers-hurt-by-terrible-ict-communication-352847/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Shameful but exactly what I'd expect.  

I totally agree Fraz it’s not just the fans that don’t hear anything. For the players and staff it is shocking the way they have been treated. Shame on their employers  

[Charles Bannerman]

41 minutes ago, Achfary said:

 When (if?) admin is triggered, the straw is because the board recklessly (and needlessly) spent big, thinking they'd have millions from Battery Farm and Statkraft.  They gambled, and as usual, it's the fans who lose.

One thing that really grates with me is the complete naivety with which they stumbled one after another into all five failed projects I mentioned in my last post, where the strong impression was continually given that nothing could possibly go wrong.

The Concert Company catastrophe should have been a warning that things very definitely COULD go wrong and I still cringe at the aura of satisfaction with which Scot Gardiner told the last AGM that the club had extracted stadium rent from the concert company before it went bust (hence leaving local traders more out of pocket than would otherwise have been the case). And what then ensued was Einstein’s definition of insanity… keeping doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different outcome. So in similar fashion, the other four projects were also pressed forward with the same degree of complacency… and all fell flat on their faces. The outcome… two years of wild goose chasing while the club’s finances went further and further down the toilet to the extent that administration and possibly oblivion beckon.

Edited June 10 by Charles Bannerman

[hislopsoffsideagain]

34 minutes ago, Fraz said:

https://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/sport/ridgers-hurt-by-terrible-ict-communication-352847/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Shameful but exactly what I'd expect.  

It's a disgrace. Even if we're not in a position to offer players contracts the club should be making this clear instead of leaving them in the lurch. Just another embarrassment in a very long list of embarrassments over the last few weeks.

 

The last time we were relegated I believe the players who were released only heard about it when the club put up a list on the website - I'm not sure this is an improvement.

[old caley girl]

50 minutes ago, Achfary said:

Now the board plays the fiddle while Rome burns.  

Ferguson has been paid how much since being hired - £180,000 according to the lower estimate by The Times?  That's before all the extras that come associated with it.  A quarter of a million a year.

God only knows what ever-increasing sum Gardiner has managed to weasel out of the club in the last five years.  

While the club has always been up and down, looking for a transfer fee here or a cup run there, the two expenditures above should never have been allowed.  Then there's Dodds and Robertson's too.

If ifs and buts were candies and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas.  

When (if?) admin is triggered, the straw is because the board recklessly (and needlessly) spent big, thinking they'd have millions from Battery Farm and Statkraft.  They gambled, and as usual, it's the fans who lose.

Hard to disagree. What an absolute s##t show. Still no information forthcoming and clock ticking towards the season. Nothing ever changes re communication and as all the gambling has become losing bets what happens now? 

 

[Scotty]

1 hour ago, Charles Bannerman said:

One thing that really grates with me is the complete naivety with which they stumbled one after another into all five failed projects I mentioned in my last post, where the strong impression was continually given that nothing could possibly go wrong.

The Concert Company catastrophe should have been a warning that things very definitely COULD go wrong and I still cringe at the aura of satisfaction with which Scot Gardiner told the last AGM that the club had extracted stadium rent from the concert company before it went bust (hence leaving local traders more out of pocket than would otherwise have been the case). And what then ensued was Einstein’s definition of insanity… keeping doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different outcome. So in similar fashion, the other four projects were also pressed forward with the same degree of complacency… and all fell flat on their faces. The outcome… two years of wild goose chasing while the club’s finances went further and further down the toilet to the extent that administration and possibly oblivion beckon.

With each mounting catastrophe, the aversion to risk should have increased. Instead, we have seemingly lobbed the remaining eggs into each oncoming basket with gusto after a few were broken in each failed venture before it. 

Some of these schemes beggar belief and I also wonder why some things at the club were undertaken (at a premium cost) when perfectly good alternatives existed beforehand. Pixellot always annoys me because @ANDYCAM and the media team in place were doing a great job of filming, editing and commentary. Instead we get an amateur implementation of something that can't even distinguish between a ball and a bald head and goes viral for all the wrong reasons. How much did that cost us and why? Incidentally, my son's U11 team uses the same system to record and analyze all his games, and no issues when it is configured right! 

The concert company is another one. Ok, the club may be insulated from that legally and somewhat financially, but not morally or in the eyes of all those businesses who got screwed. But lets look at the concert itself. Why did it fail? Did the club look to anyone with expertise in running concert events for advice? Perhaps a former chairman or well-known supporter who had jointly owned an event company a few years ago, and one of whom is still running (successful) events on his own. If not, why not?      

We also seem to be bereft of any business savvy when it comes to all the other schemes such as battery farms, land investments, freeport advantages, land rental or other schemes designed to make us money. I don't profess to know all the ins and outs of this but we have some (very) successful businesspeople on the current board and past boards ... FFS, should someone not have sought out those who had expertise and acumen in certain areas of business and utilised that knowledge? 

Admitting you don't know something, or accepting advice and learning from that advice, is not a weakness, it is a strength, but it appears to not be a strength that Autocrat #1 at ICT seems to have.  However, he is going to leave us with a final money winning scheme that will make us all rich .... 

 

1 hour ago, hislopsoffsideagain said:

It's a disgrace. Even if we're not in a position to offer players contracts the club should be making this clear instead of leaving them in the lurch. Just another embarrassment in a very long list of embarrassments over the last few weeks.

The last time we were relegated I believe the players who were released only heard about it when the club put up a list on the website - I'm not sure this is an improvement.

I saw that article and it boils my blood. Someone, the manager or DoF, should be contacting those players and letting them know what the plan is, even if it's not finalised. As Ridgers said, he is not even looking for specifics, just that "we want to keep you but not sure what kind of offer we can make you until the dust settles" so he knows whether to bide his time or look elsewhere. The man has a family and needs to make sure they are provided for, so he is being extremely patient and loyal. Same for other players. It's not nice for anyone but FFS, at least speak to them and give them some info. 

For any player who chooses to continue their career away from ICT because you simply have no choice, then I applaud you for what you have done at the club, wish you well, and understand you are doing what you have to do for you, for your family, or for your career (or all of the above). For any that stick around to wait and see what contract (if any) gets offered, then that applause becomes a standing ovation because this situation is likely the hardest you have faced in your working life and your loyalty to the club and the fans should not be disrespected.