Player Behaviour

[Mee]

I think him running out of puff towards the end of a game might have something to do with the fact he smokes loads of fags!

Most folk Ive known to work in mental health units eventually end up with wee mental problems themselves, sometimes big mental problems themselves - its a chance you take, just like taking drugs. What about all the folk you would have encountered with problems associated to drink? Has that put you off drinking? Working in a care home, I was totally shocked with the amount of folk who came in for day care who were totally wrecked as a result of drink, on average they were about 20 years younger than the "real" elderly folk who attended, and thats a government sanctioned drug. No one is shocked when an athlete goes out and gets steaming though are they?

[Guest MIDGE55]

Another interesting aspect of a player's behaviour 

Should be a few interesting conversations at the next team get together 

** Heartbreaker Story Link **

"Another living in the dark ages...its the 21st century!"

[Guest donmac298]

Why don't we rename this thread Barrackroom Lawyers!

[hislopsoffsideagain]

"What about all the folk you would have encountered with problems associated to drink? Has that put you off drinking?"

Actually, yes!

"No one is shocked when an athlete goes out and gets steaming though are they?"

I thought that, on the continent, footballers don't go out and get absolutely ratfaced.  It seems to be very much still a British thing that people think that working 5 days a week means they are entitled to drink copious amounts at the weekend (and potentially at other times) if they so wish.

On the other hand, plenty of Italian footballers smoke like chimneys.

Before everyone calls me a PC-twit, I'm aware that my views on the effect of alcohol and drugs in society are very much in the minority and are mostly due to the daily despair of having to treat people who are destroying their lives with the use of these substances.  Whether they like it or not, sportsmen are role models and, unfotunately a large chunk of society are influenced by what our "celebrities" do.

[Exiled ICT]

With regards to freedom of speech - yes, freedom of speech is allowed. However, bear in mind that the player is also entitled to certain rights such as the right not to be defamed, the right to be considered innocent until proven guilty, and the right to his personal privacy.

So we can't call a player shyte, not pulling his weight etc anymore? Wouldn't that come under the heading of defamation of character? I would think that what is or isn't said on here would we be well down the list of enquiries for any criminal case, never mind where there are potentially thousands of witnesses.

Are there any examples of forum admins or users being taken to court over comments relating to criminal proceedings?

[PullMyFinger]

"What about all the folk you would have encountered with problems associated to drink? Has that put you off drinking?"

Actually, yes!

"No one is shocked when an athlete goes out and gets steaming though are they?"

I thought that, on the continent, footballers don't go out and get absolutely ratfaced.  It seems to be very much still a British thing that people think that working 5 days a week means they are entitled to drink copious amounts at the weekend (and potentially at other times) if they so wish.

On the other hand, plenty of Italian footballers smoke like chimneys.

Before everyone calls me a PC-twit, I'm aware that my views on the effect of alcohol and drugs in society are very much in the minority and are mostly due to the daily despair of having to treat people who are destroying their lives with the use of these substances.  Whether they like it or not, sportsmen are role models and, unfotunately a large chunk of society are influenced by what our "celebrities" do.

PC TWIT!

Cast your mind back a few decades, there were more mind altering substances on the go and those taking them weren't aware of the risks. Today we are all aware. Whatever happened to the freedom our grandparents fought for. People in the FSU states have far more freedom than we've had for decades.

[Alex MacLeod]

Would like to point one thing out that comes from someone who may have been in a position to know.  A substance was found in the guy's car, not on his person. Third hand info tells me the owner of the substance has owned up to the police. Enquiries continue.

At no time has anyone, other than the speculators, claimed the person concerned was using any illegal substance. Until police enquiries have been completed and the club's internal enquiry made public then I would ask that people stop assuming that the person has been directly involved in the use or misuse of any substance.

[Kingsmills]

It's now a matter of widespread public knowledge that an ICT player was detained by the police at the Rock Ness Music Festival in relation to alleged possesssion of an illegal recreational, rather than performance enhancing, drug.

It's also now widely known and reported that that player is Ritchie Hart. In the circumstances, ther is nothing wrong in that infomation being posted on this site. Beyond that, however, the site aministrators are quite right to be very careful about further specific rumour or speculation.

That said, there is no harm in there being a general discussion about what, if anything, our club should be doing in the event that it is finally established that one of it's employees is found guilty of commiting a criminal offence.

As far as the courts are concerned, if an idividual who is a first offender is found guilty of simple possession of a class C drug  then the sanction is unlikely to be more than a modest fine comparable with that which would be imposed for a minor road traffic offence. Although a bad example might be being set, in my opinion that is a reasonable sanction to impose on an otherwise law abiding person who has trangressed to that extent.

As far as the sporting authorities are concerned, I understand that they have the ability to act and indeed impose bans if it can be eatablished that an athlete has used drugs. However, it seems to me that n the case of an individual dealt with under the criminal law, who will not have been blood tested, there can be no proof of use, merely possession.

In my opinion, if an employee of a football club was to be found guilty of possession of a class C drug then the criminal sanction combined with the public shame would be punishment enough.

[Scotty]

So we can't call a player shyte, not pulling his weight etc anymore? Wouldn't that come under the heading of defamation of character?

There is a huge difference between someone expressing their opinion about a players performance and making factually incorrect statements about an incident where they were not present and dont have any/all of the facts. As and when the facts are known then  there will be no problem discussing it in more depth in relation to the player.

Are there any examples of forum admins or users being taken to court over comments relating to criminal proceedings?

I cant speak for any other forums but we were asked twice when on SportNetwork to remove certain topics because they may have been a problem - and after taking legal advice from the SN lawyers we did as we were asked.

Kingsmills - thank you for your professional opinion. We are trying to allow discussions to take place but it is difficult to know where the line we cant cross is drawn, as it changes with each little nugget that comes out. We will continue to monitor the situation and where we have to, we will limit the comment to what is both prudent and allowable under the law. We ask all users to please try and stick to this and also ask those (like Kingsmills) to let us know if anything slips through the net.

[PullMyFinger]

FAO hislopoffsideagain.

I find this far more alarming than any non-conventional drug as it is readily available

[Guest neksor]

If subsequently the player is found guilty of possession or use of such a drug strong measures must be taken against him.

ICT players have a strong influence in the local school children and not to take appropriate action is to condone the use of drugs. The player is worshipped by many youngsters and it is important that ICT show the anti-drugs message.

Neksor

[edit: removed reference to the drug name as the alleged substance has not been established]

[PullMyFinger]

Another has suggested the suspect substance was found in his car and that a friend admitted it was his. Until we have all the 'Facts' I suggest we don't speculate.

[maimie]

"What about all the folk you would have encountered with problems associated to drink? Has that put you off drinking?"

Actually, yes!

"No one is shocked when an athlete goes out and gets steaming though are they?"

I thought that, on the continent, footballers don't go out and get absolutely ratfaced.  It seems to be very much still a British thing that people think that working 5 days a week means they are entitled to drink copious amounts at the weekend (and potentially at other times) if they so wish.

On the other hand, plenty of Italian footballers smoke like chimneys.

Before everyone calls me a PC-twit, I'm aware that my views on the effect of alcohol and drugs in society are very much in the minority and are mostly due to the daily despair of having to treat people who are destroying their lives with the use of these substances.  Whether they like it or not, sportsmen are role models and, unfotunately a large chunk of society are influenced by what our "celebrities" do.

PC TWIT!

Cast your mind back a few decades, there were more mind altering substances on the go and those taking them weren't aware of the risks. Today we are all aware. Whatever happened to the freedom our grandparents fought for. People in the FSU states have far more freedom than we've had for decades.

I suspect that many folk don't know the risks that they take today when they are taking mind altering substances.  a few decades ago you could be pretty sure what was in what you were taking and still many people have ended up with drug-induced psychosis.  these days you have absolutely no idea what's in what you are taking.

as hyslopsoffsideagain says if you saw what effects these drugs have on mental and physical health of folk....  he's seen it from the Newcraigs side - and if you were to see the staff in ICU in raigmore and other hospitals battling to save the lives of young people week in week out who have taken goodness knows what stuff thinking it wouldn't happen to them....

[maimie]

FAO hislopoffsideagain.

I find this far more alarming than any non-conventional drug as it is readily available

agreed.....

so are you paying attention then?

[PullMyFinger]

Did you actually read the linked article?

I'm not condoning drug abuse, only highlighting that alcohol which is available in the majority of our corner shops is by far a bigger issue. Also alcohol is a drug but generates income for the government, why not legalise the drugs, control their distribution and generate extra income through taxation?

[SMEE]

Another has suggested the suspect substance was found in his car and that a friend admitted it was his. Until we have all the 'Facts' I suggest we don't speculate.

If thats true, then am sure the individual in question will have had no drugs in his system, pressuming they tested him!

[PullMyFinger]

Until we have all the 'Facts' I suggest we don't speculate.

:blah01:

[hislopsoffsideagain]

Yes 4thstand, it didn't surprise me to read that article.  Everyone should be forced by law to drink nothing except tea and coffee (of course, those contain caffeine...)

To be honest I think this is an excellent thread with good arguments from both sides.  Hopefully some of the younger members of the support are reading this - they'd be getting a fairly balanced argument I think.

[Fanoffooty]

  This is all we need eh , a Caley Thistle player embroiled in a drugs scandal & the possibility of losing him , i'm beginning to get frustrated , we've had all the arseing about with Craig Dargo's will he wont he stay saga & now this !!!!!

No word of any new signings yet , i reckon we've missed the boat as far as getting any quality players in ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[RiG]

The season is still 7 weeks away from starting  :017:

[ymip]

The season may well be seven weeks from starting but I'd like to think that just for once we might have tried to assemble our squad prior to commencing pre-season training and the usual raft of meaningless friendlies.  Alas, the silence surrounding the season ahead is deafening.

Dargo and Dods have departed despite Grasser’s repeated threats to smash the club’s wage structure.  Meanwhile Buchanan opts for Partick Thistle, McManus stays at Dunfermline and Mensing heads for Motherwell.  Our playing squad is undoubtedly depleted and there is no sign of anyone arriving to fill the gaps let alone move us forward and avoid a potential relegation dog-fight. 

Moreover, there’s no suggestion of a single decent pre-season friendly which might generate a degree of interest amongst the apathetic sneck public or heaven-forbid generate some positive press coverage in the close season.  The same old Highland League and Division 2/3 sides don’t count I’m afraid.

There’s been nothing official on the pre-season jaunt to Italy nor any announcement on our new sponsorship deal. 

Don’t get me started on the Elton John/Intertoto farce.

But never mind Charlie and Grasser are p.issing about playing Masterchef at Rocpool so all in the world is fine and dandy.

In short the same old amateurish approach that we’ve come to expect.

:019: 

[Gabby]

I cannot believe that Neksor's post was edited by the moderator.  I think there has been a near hysterical response by some moderators/posters to edit or indeed say that this issue cannot be discussed.  Not one post on this thread has come even close to causing a problem.

At no time did he say player a is taking drug b.

However it is perfectly legitimate to ask what should be the club's reaction be IF a player was found to be in possession of a specified, illegal substance.

4th stand says that we shouldn't speculate without the facts - fine.  This doesn't mean we can't have a responsible discussion about how the club should respond IF a player was found in possession of an illegal substance.

[maimie]

Did you actually read the linked article?

I'm not condoning drug abuse, only highlighting that alcohol which is available in the majority of our corner shops is by far a bigger issue. Also alcohol is a drug but generates income for the government, why not legalise the drugs, control their distribution and generate extra income through taxation?

yes - i did actually read the linked article and having worked with people with end stage liver disease have seen the damage that can be done.  everyone seems to accept that alcohol causes many of the problems in today's society but don't seem to be prepared to do anything about it..

[Scotty]

I cannot believe that Neksor's post was edited by the moderator.  I think there has been a near hysterical response by some moderators/posters to edit or indeed say that this issue cannot be discussed.  Not one post on this thread has come even close to causing a problem.

Gabby - I beg to differ and as myself and Donald are the ones who would also be in the firing line IF (and I know it is a big if) either the player or the authorities decided to challenge some of what has been written on here, and we had not moderated any postings, then some of those posts could certainly be held up to show our irresponsibility. At the end of the day, I am covering both my own and the site's *** and make absolutely no apologies for doing so.

We are trying to allow as much discussion as we can within the framework of what has been established as fact but we will not hesitate to edit or delete anything that we are uncomfortable with in a legal sense and this includes suggestions that the player was caught in possession of a particular named drug as this has not been established yet. If you want to call it a 'substance' then this is ok, but to categorically say it was drug 'a' or drug 'b' is wrong. I have done a lot of trawling through the internet over the last few days and have seen about half a dozen different accounts that claim to be factual and each and every one of them has different 'facts'.

As far as I am concerned, the following are facts

A player was detained at Rockness.

That player has been confirmed as Richie Hart.

The substance he was allegedly 'in possession' of has not been established (although it has been reported as one of four different drugs by various media outlets).

It has not been confirmed that he was using the aforementioned substance merely that he was 'in possession' of it by virtue of it being found in his car.

He has not (as far as I am aware) been charged with any offence.

He is innocent until proven guilty.

anything else is speculation. some of it may be strong speculation but it is speculation nonetheless.

In today's Courier, the club (Bennett) have said "At the moment it is an allegation and it would be wrong of us to prejudice what will go on. I don't want to say or do anything until we have the full aspects of what happened. We can't really comment any further than that." and that to me seems sensible. We also do not want anything on here to be held up as prejudicial.

If posters want to have a full discussion about drugs in sport or even about particular drugs in sport then this is fine. If you want to discuss drug policy within the club or the SPL this is fine. If you want to discuss Gordon Smith's idea that all players should be drug tested this is fine. If you want to discuss the dangers of other drugs such as nicotine or alcohol in comparison to 'controlled substances' this is fine. However, in any discussion, when you bring this player (or any player) into it and either categorically state or infer that he is a user of, or was caught with, a particular drug before this is established as a fact then this is not on.

It is a very fine line between discussion and defamation and perhaps we might 'moderate' some comments that would be ok in that sense. However, after taking advice from a couple of people, including a lawyer, and receiving a LOT of email about the subject then I am comfortable with the level of both mine and the other admins/mods actions.

[Charles Bannerman]

I would fully back what Scotty has just said and done. The original post named an illegal substance in conjunction with a turn of phrase which implied guilt. Theoretically that could be actionable.

I really can't overstate the complexity of the situation in which some posters are in danger of placing themselves. The law in relation to what you can and cannot say publicly in a situation like this is quite extensive and complex and it's an area best kept well clear of.