Livingston Caledonian Thistle

[mainstander]

Livingston Caledonian Thistle! Acording to The Herald thats what the anouncer at Fir Park anounced ICT as on Saturday! Is this true. I wasnt there myself.

The paper also has this quote from Davie Irons about the size of the crowd which was just over 1000.

"What do you expect from a village of 3000 people playing against a team that are the furthest north in the country," he said. "I hear these comments about our fans but for us to be asked to build a stadium for 6000 people in a village of 2000 is just ridiculous."

Perhaps you could equally ask why theres a team from a "village of 3000 (or is it 2000) people" in the SPL at all. After all there only their because of one mans money and not a lot to do with Gretna as a community. Looks like the Green Gretna (Gretna Green?) Stadium could end up as a white elepahnt.

[Scotty]

Looks like the Green Gretna (Gretna Green?) Stadium could end up as a white elepahnt.

You mean the "ECO", or perhaps the "echo" stadium  :015: :015:

[RiG]

Livingston Caledonian Thistle! Acording to The Herald thats what the anouncer at Fir Park anounced ICT as on Saturday! Is this true. I wasnt there myself.

I don't mind hearing that at all but then again I was too busy laughing at the shambles that is Gretna Football Club.

I mind down at Livingston their announcer made a sarcastic comment about the size of the ICT Away support that day claiming something like 60 had come down the road. Shame he couldn't count the real number which was ~ 250 - 300. Not great by any means but he got the reaction he wanted I guess.

I kind of agree with Irons with regards to crowds and them having to build a 6,000 seater stadium but then again, surely as the Gretna chequebook was flashed here there and everywhere, they would have known this eventuality was coming?

They won't even need the ground when they are relegated by March.

[TheresNoEsInBlack]

Perhaps you could equally ask why theres a team from a "village of 3000 (or is it 2000) people" in the SPL at all. After all there only their because of one mans money and not a lot to do with Gretna as a community. Looks like the Green Gretna (Gretna Green?) Stadium could end up as a white elepahnt.

That's the kind of opinion you sometimes hear from some OF fans on Jim Traynor's Your Call - It's narrow minded and we're better than that.  I think you've maybe forgotten our own roots as it was that kind of attitude that prevented either Caley or Thistle from getting a chance in the senior leagues for so many years.

Gretna are in the SPL on merit, they won the first division just like we did so they deserve to be in the SPL, it doesn't matter who bankrolls them.  The OF are only as big as they are because they are bankrolled by the populous of Glasgow and more!  Its the football that matters, not where you come from.

Gretna are now seeing that the real test is not getting to the SPL but staying there.  I wonder how long they'll hold off building the stadium?  Or have they started already?

[Ice_G]

I agree, theresnoeinblack.

The things being said about Gretna are not so different to the pish spouted about ICT by fans of the "established" clubs who for some reason believe that football should only be played among the dark satanic mills of the central belt.

I welcome Gretna and their fans to the SPL, what they have achieved so far in their short history is pretty impressive. The challenge for Gretna is to do as ICT did by backing up the "fairytale" with spirit and heart to confound the critics and fight to stay in the league.

If they're not good enough, they're not good enough - but that has to be down to what happens on the pitch and not where they are from or who pays their wages.

In the meantime, I'm particularly glad to have such a dreadful side in the SPL to prop up the league and give us some breathing space after our worst-ever start!

[KingBeastie]

Gretna are in the SPL on merit

:017:

[RiG]

I welcome Gretna and their fans to the SPL, what they have achieved so far in their short history is pretty impressive. The challenge for Gretna is to do as ICT did by backing up the "fairytale" with spirit and heart to confound the critics and fight to stay in the league.

Thing is, with a budget the size of SFL 2 and 3 combined, you'd have to pretty amazed if they didn't come up in successive years.

But then again the players they signed on SPL wages came to Raydale to work with "Soopah Ro". Nothing to do with the massive contracts on offer.

[Scotty]

Whatever you think of Gretna, they won their various divisions and have ended up in the SPL. They are there on merit because no-one else could stop them (not even themselves towards the end of the season). However, they also have a big vote of thanks to give to ICT because without our fights to be allowed to groundshare and for the seating requirements to be reduced they would have been in a situation like Falkirk were a couple of times ... Division One winners without a prize !

It is true to say that like Livi before them, they splashed the cash to get there and that is, and will continue to, come back to bite them just as it did Livi. It looks like the Sugar Daddy has gone sour on the fairytale, at least a bit, and without his cash, and a decent manager, they are heading straight back down. I would predict it unlikely they will get back up again anytime soon. Its a difficult division as just about every other former SPL club who has been relegated have found out !!!

Do I hate them? no i dont, fair play to them and to their supporters, and to any other club and set of supporters that win the first division. Will I feel sorry for them? thats also a no. They took the Livi route to success and like any other resource, money is finite. when it runs out you have to rely on whats already in the cupboards and theirs are bare ! The ICT route is the one to take .... slow and steady progress to a point where you win it (Div 1) on absolute merit without accusations of buying your way into the SPL. It took us a while to get there, and a while to find our feet once we did, but we are all the stronger for it and will hopefully be in it for a while to come !

[CaleyD]

The difference between Livi and Gretna is that if/when it all comes to an end, Gretna won't be paying off debts to the tune of 18p in the pound.  Their spending will have no impact on anyone but themselves and if Mileson was to walk away he would be leaving them debt free.....plunging fast perhaps....but debt free all the same.

[TheresNoEsInBlack]

Gretna are in the SPL on merit

:017:

Please explain Mr H... ;)

[Ice_G]

The ICT route is the one to take .... slow and steady progress ...

Not that slow and steady, Scotty! There are a lot of teams who've been around a lot longer and have never soared at the giddy heights that we've achieved!

But I do take the point that ICT did it on merit and not just on deep pockets - though you'd have to concede that the willingness of the City and certain Chairmen and their building companies to support the club financially have been a big factor in our success, even though their funding has not generally gone on big playing contracts (until this season).

[Alex MacLeod]

Lets not forget......Brookes Mileson bought an amatuer football team and, at the time, publicly stated that he would take that team to the SPL within five years by whatever means possible. He achieved that goal, though the pundits said he wouldn't, by puting SPL players into his third div team, and well done him for realising his goal. The problem now is that there is no more money to be spent. Mileson hasn't got it any more. His legacy will be a team that will likely end up back in the amatuer circuit but he will have shown that the goal he set was achievable.

[Scotty]

Not that slow and steady, Scotty! There are a lot of teams who've been around a lot longer and have never soared at the giddy heights that we've achieved!

Very true .... but three years in Div 3, two years in Div 2, five years in Div 1 and now four years in the SPL is steady progress ... perhaps slow was the wrong word to use, and it should just have been "steady", but our progress was slow when compared to that of Livi or Gretna as opposed to other teams who have been around for decades and done nothing .... but I think you agree that we have certainly not done it the Gretna or Livi way.

We have also been lucky with our directors - Livi and Gretna have both had/have sugar daddies who oversaw pretty much their whole rise out of their own pockets whereas we have had several chairmen over our rise and each has brought something to the table. Whether it be the hard work of the merger and new stadium by the original board, the "rescue package" of the trust and sound business practices that Sutherland and Tullochs brought in both his first and second spells, the quiet but effective style of Ken Mackie in our effort to win the vote for promotion or the current chairman and his bold plans for the club. We might disagree with what they do from time to time - such as recently - but for the most part we have been happy with their actions and the methodical and sensible approach they have taken.

[gordyfromsneck]

I agree that there are crucial dissimilarities between the rises of Gretna and Livingstone, and here is another.

They are away from the Central Belt, and have no "wee" team stigma about them. Like ICT they are from an area historically discriminated against in terms of top-rank footie, (unless you count QOS), so interms of geographical distribution having them in the SPL is good for the game.

No doubt they are first choice for many of their fanbase, and will continue to be, long after they have left the SPL and started sliding down. But what memories...

In years to come young Stattos will look at their football history and go "Gretna!? Gretna were in the SPL?!"

An unsustainable miracle...

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Well ya have to say that Brookes certainly lived his dream - and fair play to the man - he put in a lot of money but he stood by them and probably brought a community together in the process. I almost feel that his failing health turned it into a dying wish. At least he stood on the terraces and didnt spout a load of crap.

Have to disagree with the fan base - there were a lot of kids in the Gretna support who wrere wearing a mixture of strips - English, Hearts, Cellic and Rangers. When they fall from the SPL they may find themselves losing a lot of that support. It just feels like Gretna is a passing whim.

[Scotty]

I think you could be right IHE ! ..... and 30 years from now when some old diehard chats to his grandson at Raydale park in the Scottish 2nd division, and says "I remember when we were in the SPL ....." the grandson is likely to look at him like he's got Alzheimers !

[ElderBoy]

Well ya have to say that Brookes certainly lived his dream - and fair play to the man - he put in a lot of money but he stood by them and probably brought a community together in the process. I almost feel that his failing health turned it into a dying wish. At least he stood on the terraces and didnt spout a load of crap.

Have to disagree with the fan base - there were a lot of kids in the Gretna support who wrere wearing a mixture of strips - English, Hearts, Cellic and Rangers. When they fall from the SPL they may find themselves losing a lot of that support. It just feels like Gretna is a passing whim.

cant agrre more i even seen some adults with OF shirts on

[alternative maryhill]

Well ya have to say that Brookes certainly lived his dream - and fair play to the man - he put in a lot of money but he stood by them and probably brought a community together in the process. I almost feel that his failing health turned it into a dying wish. At least he stood on the terraces and didnt spout a load of crap.

Have to disagree with the fan base - there were a lot of kids in the Gretna support who wrere wearing a mixture of strips - English, Hearts, Cellic and Rangers. When they fall from the SPL they may find themselves losing a lot of that support. It just feels like Gretna is a passing whim.

On that subject, pretty sobering stat from the Livi game on Saturday - their home crowd was only 721 against QoS. I don't think they ever had crowds that low even in the third division and I'm pretty sure we've never had a crowd that low for a league game. Shows, I guess, what a rapid slide down the league can do to a club, although God forbid if we are relegated at some point, I don't believe our crowds would diminish that much.

[Scarlet Pimple]

Those who decry Gretna's rise forget the trials and tribulations of ICT.

A cheer for a minnow who made it regardless of who paid the bill.

What the **** are all these leagues for anyway unless there is a golden rainbow at the end of it for someone with the vision and courage to dream amd try and try and try.

And in the process Miles nearly died--remember that. He was so sick at the last game of the season prior to  their triumphant entry into the SPL that he could hardly drag one foot after the other and looked at death's door. I salute you Miles, you had a dream and put your money where your mouth was  and it is as clear as a pikestaff that the man loves the game and his club.

Stop laughing at this club because there but for the grace of God go I ! :020: