carnage on the roads recently

[Drochit Blue]

Heres how u learn, u drive thro Glasgow for the first time, only to suddenly realise there are 2 lanes of traffic either side of ya going the same direction :017:

must come as a shock first time though. The M25 is much easier cos you're only doing about 5mph!

[Jinkystan]

I must have been just 2 minutes behind the accident on Saturday so I took the back road to Nairn. The guy in the car in front of me (who was also diverted) was all over the road ... going round blind corners on the wrong side of the road and swerving about all over the place almost hitting at least 2 other cars in the process.

It's not the road that kills ... it's the fecking idiots who drive on it !!

[Guest birdog]

Roads and cars don't kill they are inanimate objects, they only become instruments of death when you input people into the equation so perhaps the only options to prevent death on our roads are to ban people or educate them on how to behave.

[absent friend]

As has been said, human factors are the reason in most cases although you can not rule out mechanical failure.

A9 accident.

I do feel that having 3 dogs in the cab of the vehicle that swerved over the road and caused the impact, (as reported in todays press) could have been a worse distraction than any changing channels on his/her radio would be.  In this case the tourists were on the correct side of the road.

Culbokie accident

An unfortunate pedestrian walking past the cemetery carpark was ran over be a driverless runaway car from the said carpark.  The odds against that happening in such a remote area, or should I say pedestrianless area, must be so high. The cause, lets hope, is mechanical failure and not human failure.

So sad when you consider the impact the accidents will have on so many lives - like a ripple effect the impact from the accidents will go out and out.

[Scotty]

I wasnt experienced driving in heavy traffic when I left Inverness but with a daily round-trip commute of 70 miles on the 401 highway, which  has been named as the busiest stretch of highway in North America and the busiest Truck route in the world [SOURCE], you learn fast.

I have seen it all, good drivers, bad drivers, slow drivers, fast drivers, drivers on the phone (still legal here for now), drivers reading maps, drivers eating, putting on make-up, playing with GPS devices or iPods etc and my personal stressmakers .... drivers swerving in and out of lanes every few seconds usually without looking and forcing you to break sharply (this is even more scary when you consider that the highway ranges from 3 lanes to 9 lanes in each direction and has no HOV lanes described by SP earlier) or drivers racing to the end of 'crawl  lanes or merge lanes as they are called here and pulling in at the last second. When you see all this on a daily basis - I call it the "Wacky Races" - you realise that the accidents are almost always the fault of the drivers and nothing to do with the road itself. The only time you might not say that is in the midst of a cold Ontario winter when there is a lot of snow on the ground and even then if you have winter tyres and the sense to adjust your driving to the conditions you are normally fine.

On my last trip home, we flew into Glasgow and drove up the A9 (and back again at the end of the trip). I had never driven the A9, and had never driven in Glasgow but that part was easy as it was early morning on a Saturday. Getting to Perth was a breeze, mostly dualled, clearly marked, and no big issues. Beyond Perth, I could not believe the number of bad drivers I saw, mostly to do with impatience and overtaking where it was not safe to do so, but also in the dualled stretches where numpties would try to get ahead of as much traffic as they could before it turned back into a single lane in each direction. Driving back to Glasgow was equally fraught with stress from Inverness to Perth and it was actually less stressful a while later when driving through Glasgow towards the airport in rush hour as it felt more like Toronto !!! 

The A9 should have been dualled from top to bottom years ago. Safety is way more important than "efficiency" and the trunk routes to/from all major population centres like Inverness / Aberdeen / Dundee etc should be at the very top of any list.

[Alex MacLeod]

I do feel that having 3 dogs in the cab of the vehicle that swerved over the road and caused the impact, (as reported in todays press) could have been a worse distraction than any changing channels on his/her radio would be.  In this case the tourists were on the correct side of the road.

None of the reports I have read today suggest the dogs were in the cab of the pick-up.

[Guest birdog]

As has been said, human factors are the reason in most cases although you can not rule out mechanical failure.

The cause, lets hope, is mechanical failure and not human failure.

Human factors are the reason for all accidents. Like I said cars are inanimate objects until you add the human factor, humans are responsible for their invention, their maintenance, their operation and their safe stowage without the human element cars would be little more than minerals in the earth.

[Scotty]

Human factors are the reason for all accidents. Like I said cars are inanimate objects until you add the human factor, humans are responsible for their invention, their maintenance, their operation and their safe stowage without the human element cars would be little more than minerals in the earth.

Whilst I would agree with what you say in principle, there are grey areas .... You can have a perfectly maintained car and things can and still do go wrong ... brakes can fail, tyres can suffer a blowout, problems with the road surface (potholes, "grooved pavement*", slippery conditions after rain etc) can multiply the effects of a small error. However, people are indeed overwhelmingly to blame for pretty much most accidents.

*grooved pavement - the term they use over here when they scrape the top inch or so off the road surface leaving something that looks like the lines a fork would leave if you scraped it (gently) through a perfectly smooth and flat piece of pizza dough or something like that.

[Guest birdog]

Scotty I really don't want to get into an argument on this subject but to answer your post. Brakes can fail, granted, but only through poor maintenance and drivers should be aware of warning signs of bad road conditions and take appropriate actions ie slow down. There is no situation on the roads or elsewhere for that matter in which an accident is unavoidable. The most important statement in your post is "can multiply the effects of a small error"

Sorry but all accidents on the roads are due to human intervention.

EDIT- Apologies for getting on my high horse on this one. Senseless death really does make me angry at times though, regardless of who the victims are.

[Scotty]

Brakes can fail, granted, but only through poor maintenance

Not so. I have had this experience and although it did not result in an accident, the reason was not poor maintenance. My car is serviced at least every 3 months (because of my high mileage - 120,000Km in 3 years) and if I perceive anything wrong between those times I usually pop into the garage and speak to them .... perhaps the argument could be made that the mechanics could have done something preventative in my case but at the end of the day, mechanical parts will fail from time to time and unless cars go through the same rigorous maintenance routines that most airlines are mandated to use then it is a possibility.

Drivers should be aware of warning signs of bad road conditions and take appropriate actions ie slow down.

In general, I totally agree with you and I consider myself to be a safe driver. I drive at a decent speed in good weather or traffic conditions, I may bend the speed limit from time to time but mostly the roads are that full that its not really possible. I probably make mistakes driving like anyone else, but I dont do some of the crazy stuff i mentioned above !!! When inclement weather hits, I also dont go to the other extreme like some drivers do and virtually stop (which can cause just as many accidents) instead I drive at what I consider to be a safer pace but I respect the conditions and make whatever adjustments I think are appropriate.

However, I can give you two examples right now that have happened to me where there were no warning signs.

The first happened to me (as a passenger) near Perth and probably still happens to others in exactly the same location due to atmospherics .... you are driving along in near perfect visibility and suddenly you drive into a fog bank as you round a corner. You didnt see it because it was round a corner and there were no warning signs because prior to that you were in clear visibility. The first time it happened was freaky and it was impossible to be aware but on subsequent occasions I either warned the driver or when driving up the road myself knew where it happened so did take extra caution.

The second example is from over here and has happened several times this summer .... We have had a fairly wet/humid and thundery summer so far and I have found myself driving along the highway in perfect sunshine only to then drive into an absolute downpour (rain/hail/thunder/lightning) where the sky that was blue and apparently cloudless seconds earlier is really dark and menacing in an instant. Its kind of hard to describe as there doesnt appear to be what looks like a dark cloud in the sky yet when it happens there seems to be dark clouds everywhere. There were no warning signs, but as soon as you hit this weather you need to adjust. As well as slowing down, I put on my full headlight system (dipped of course) so that cars in front and behind can see me - its crazy how many drivers dont do this, especially as 'daytime running lights' (sidelights) are mandatory in Ontario.

As far as avoidable bad conditions, or conditions where you have some warning then I totally agree with you. I know the route I take each day like the back of my hand. I know where each pothole is, I know where all the roadworks are, and where I will be driving across sections of "grooved pavement", and I know where and when I have to change lanes to be in the right lane for each part of my journey so from that point of view I am definitely aware of things.   

Dont think we need to argue over this one ... we are basically agreeing for about 99% of it .... you are saying its black and white whereas I am saying its mostly black and white with a very small grey area in between.

[alimci]

Scotty I really don't want to get into an argument on this subject but to answer your post. Brakes can fail, granted, but only through poor maintenance and drivers should be aware of warning signs of bad road conditions and take appropriate actions ie slow down. There is no situation on the roads or elsewhere for that matter in which an accident is unavoidable. The most important statement in your post is  "can multiply the effects of a small error"

Sorry but all accidents on the roads are due to human intervention.

birdog, I have to disagree with you here. My brakes failed at 60mph on the M8 approaching the Newbridge roundabout in Edinburgh (when it was a roundabout). My car was well maintained, regularly serviced and there was no indication there was a problem the whole way from Glasgow. Sometimes mechanical failure just happens. I didn't crash into the queue in front of me because I managed to slow down in time, but it's not something I would ever want to repeat. I totally agree that most accidents could be prevented and are caused by human error, but I don't think 100% of accidents are.

[Guest birdog]

Brakes can fail, granted, but only through poor maintenance

Not so. I have had this experience and although it did not result in an accident, the reason was not poor maintenance. My car is serviced at least every 3 months (because of my high mileage - 120,000Km in 3 years) and if I perceive anything wrong between those times I usually pop into the garage and speak to them .... perhaps the argument could be made that the mechanics could have done something preventative in my case but at the end of the day, mechanical parts will fail from time to time and unless cars go through the same rigorous maintenance routines that most airlines are mandated to use then it is a possibility.

Scotty I am a marine engineer yes mechanical parts do fail before their service period due to either manufacturing flaws (human {quality control,installation or design}) or misuse (human)

Drivers should be aware of warning signs of bad road conditions and take appropriate actions ie slow down.

However, I can give you two examples right now that have happened to me where there were no warning signs.

The first happened to me (as a passenger) near Perth and probably still happens to others in exactly the same location due to atmospherics .... you are driving along in near perfect visibility and suddenly you drive into a fog bank as you round a corner. You didnt see it because it was round a corner and there were no warning signs because prior to that you were in clear visibility. The first time it happened was freaky and it was impossible to be aware but on subsequent occasions I either warned the driver or when driving up the road myself knew where it happened so did take extra caution.

The second example is from over here and has happened several times this summer .... We have had a fairly wet/humid and thundery summer so far and I have found myself driving along the highway in perfect sunshine only to then drive into an absolute downpour (rain/hail/thunder/lightning) where the sky that was blue and apparently cloudless seconds earlier is really dark and menacing in an instant. Its kind of hard to describe as there doesnt appear to be what looks like a dark cloud in the sky yet when it happens there seems to be dark clouds everywhere. There were no warning signs, but as soon as you hit this weather you need to adjust. As well as slowing down, I put on my full headlight system (dipped of course) so that cars in front and behind can see me - its crazy how many drivers dont do this, especially as 'daytime running lights' (sidelights) are mandatory in Ontario.

Scotty weather conditions are always unpredictable, anyone who enters a car is taking control of up to two tonnes of metal and should be prepared for the worst, they should be at their highest levels of concentration and alertness if they find they are not then they should stop and rest. All drivers should take precautions for such eventualities, if you can't see a fog bank around and risk hitting a car in front slowing down when you do see it then you are driving too close to the car in front. The same goes for sudden down pours.

birdog, I have to disagree with you here. My brakes failed at 60mph on the M8 approaching the Newbridge roundabout in Edinburgh (when it was a roundabout). My car was well maintained, regularly serviced and there was no indication there was a problem the whole way from Glasgow. Sometimes mechanical failure just happens. I didn't crash into the queue in front of me because I managed to slow down in time, but it's not something I would ever want to repeat. I totally agree that most accidents could be prevented and are caused by human error, but I don't think 100% of accidents are.

alimci I cannot comment on your brake failure other than mechanical components don't fail for no reason.

I will state it again 100% of accidents are avoidable.

I think you guys may be getting me wrong, I am not stating that the driver is always to blame but that somewhere down the line a human being had a hand in the trail of events leading to any accident and as such all accidents are avoidable.

O/T EDIT- alimci what is the phonetical spelling of your username? It's been doing my head in for months trying to pronounce it in my head.

[CaleyD]

I doubt there's a driver on this forum who has never done something stupid or taken a risk whilst behind the wheel of a car....intentionally or through ignorance.  What gets me though is those people who never learn or aren't switched on enough to realise what they are doing is stupid or dangerous.  It never fails to amaze me the number of people you'll see nip out and fly past you in a queue of traffic and only make it back in safely by the closest of margins.....only for them to nip out again the moment the vehicle they just about had a head-on with has passed in order for them to repeat the performance.

I have just about expired myself twice through stupidity...and that's enough.  Neither event ended in damage or injury to anyone, but am not going to push my luck.  I've also come close to meeting my maker on 3 or 4 occasions where I've practically had to pull off the road to avoid oncoming vehicles, or had to brake to allow someone overtaking back in to avoid a collision.

With regards to all accidents being influenced by a "human factor" somewhere along the line...I disagree.  I was a passenger in a van on the Ullapool road when a stag jumped onto the road only to find our van in his way...hit the side of it and sent the van off it's wheels and off the road.  No way that could have been predicted or avoided via any practical human intervention.

[Guest birdog]

With regards to all accidents being influenced by a "human factor" somewhere along the line...I disagree.  I was a passenger in a van on the Ullapool road when a stag jumped onto the road only to find our van in his way...hit the side of it and sent the van off it's wheels and off the road.  No way that could have been predicted or avoided via any practical human intervention.

Did the driver have one of these fitted to the car? LINK

The car has been around for more than a century, plenty of time for hindsight, no pun intended.

[CaleyD]

No we had the lights on our vehicles which were suppose to do a similar job.....even if we had a deer whistle, they don't eliminate the risk....

Help save human & animal lives through reduced deer and vehicle collisions.

[Scotty]

Think we are getting further and further away from the point in this discussion ......

[Guest birdog]

No we had the lights on our vehicles which were suppose to do a similar job.....even if we had a deer whistle, they don't eliminate the risk....

Help save human & animal lives through reduced deer and vehicle collisions.

CaleyD my point is that all accidents are avoidable and that a human element is to play a part in all accidents are avoidable. Of course if the deer was blind then those lights would do nothing for your safety nor if the deer was deaf would the whistle do anything for your safety. The quote you have put up there is a standard disclaimer. I said already I don't want to get drawn into an argument over this it is a very volatile subject and one I feel strongly about. Show me a case of a car accident between deer and car when whistles and lights were fitted I will concede defeat. IMO there is always something which could be done to avoid every accident, more deer fencing or this LINK installed across roads with wooded areas on either side or in fact all of the above, slower driving at night in the areas where deer are known to be present.

[Guest birdog]

Think we are getting further and further away from the point in this discussion ......

I thought the point of the discussion was carnage on the roads and how to avoid it?

[CaleyD]

As I said.....

No way that could have been predicted or avoided via any practical human intervention.

If you wanted to take it to the extreme and beyond the boundaries of reasonable argument then I guess the mere act of leaving your house and getting in to a car is all the "human intervention" you would need to cite man as the cause of all accidents.

[Guest birdog]

As I said.....

No way that could have been predicted or avoided via any practical human intervention.

If you wanted to take it to the extreme and beyond the boundaries of reasonable argument then I guess the mere act of leaving your house and getting in to a car is all the "human intervention" you would need to cite man as the cause of all accidents.

Ok to take your quoted point first, everyone but everyone knows deer are indigenous to Scottish country side and I predict that within the next year at least one car will hit a deer in the Scottish Highlands and this could be avoided by using all of the methods mentioned in my last post in tandem.

To take your second statement, I am glad you finally agree with me on something.

[Scotty]

If you wanted to take it to the extreme and beyond the boundaries of reasonable argument then I guess the mere act of leaving your house and getting in to a car is all the "human intervention" you would need to cite man as the cause of all accidents.

That was exactly my point when I said we are drifting further and further away from the point !!!

I think the crux of this whole subject is the word "REASONABLE" .... There are definitely steps that any driver should take that are both reasonable and practical to avoid accidents, such as regular maintenance of the vehicle, being aware of their surroundings and the weather, driving to the conditions, driving responsibly (not speeding, tailgating, or overtaking where its not safe to do so etc.), taking appropriate action when unexpected weather, conditions, or the actions of other drivers happen etc ..... but I dont think it is reasonable to expect any driver to predict or even prepare for every possible eventuality that might arise, there are so many imponderables that you would never get into your car again ......

If you remember the scene from "Life of Brian" ..... "What have the Romans ever done for Us?" ..... you could have a similar discussion on this based on "What do I need to do or have before I get in my car?" ......

[Guest birdog]

OK guys, I get your points, the crux of my discussion was that all accidents are, with available technology, avoidable and that there is a human element to all accidents. So, how much is a human life reasonably worth? How much time, effort and money should reasonably be spent to save life?

EDIT- To expand on this point you obviously believe that I am being unreasonable in saying that the human race should spend it's valuable money on accident avoidance. We have hindsight to let us know that deer run in front of cars making it predictable, we have as I have shown, the technology to avoid such circumstances.

As far as reasonable costs go, Volvo invented and patented the three point safety belt. This belt has been fitted to nearly all new cars in the world since the 1980s and therefore could have earned Volvo enough money to equip the whole of Scotland with the deer counter measures I have mentioned but they gave the idea away freely because they believe that there is no reasonable limit to the cost of road safety. I believe but could be wrong that they are responsible for airbags also.

[CaleyD]

I'd have to bow to your superior knowledge on the cost of safety since I haven't yet got round to pricing or ordering my "repel 1001 species of animal" whistle, my meteor detector or the widely advertised falling tree predictor!!!

[Guest birdog]

I'd have to bow to your superior knowledge on the cost of safety since I haven't yet got round to pricing or ordering my "repel 1001 species of animal" whistle, my meteor detector or the widely advertised falling tree predictor!!!

Lame

[Alex MacLeod]

One thing I note thats missing in birdog arguement, and something that may have been the cause of saturday's tragedy, and thats sudden illness. Heart attack, severe stroke and one or two other conditions can come on very sudden and without warning. Indeed even the fittest and healthiest of us can suddenly drop to the ground. Where's the human factor there.