Hats off to Killie

[KingBeastie]

Well done Killie.

LINK - CLICK ME!

[Scotty]

doesnt seem to be anything to do with Killie ...... other than it took place at Rugby Park and he was up in Kilmarnock Sheriff Court .... if anything, much as it is hard to say, it should be Rangers getting the praise

"Walls was seen singing the chorus of the song and other offensive remarks during the game by stewards employed by Rangers FC."

"Miss Tait ? a club steward for the last three years ? said that her instructions were to take the seat numbers of those guilty of sectarian behaviour and report them to Rangers for further action."

[Guest Spectre]

So if I read it right, 90% of Rangers fans were signing the famine song, and there was one prosecution.

[CaleyD]

I'm sorry, but that ruling is absolutely ridiculous and I very much doubt that it will stand up to proper scrutiny if/when it is appealed by any lawyer half worth their salt.

For a start, the lines sung by the Rangers fans do not appear anywhere in the original lyrics of the song, so to base the outcome of the case on the fact that the two lines used by Rangers fans make it representative of the more damning words in the full lyrics is, at best, pushing their luck.

Secondly, if they are to allow the findings of the Sheriff to stand on the basis that singing part of a song makes you "guilty" of being associated with the feelings/expressions shown elsewhere in the song then they better ban "God Save the Queen" right off the bat because they are now saying that even though the verse about crushing rebellious Scots is not sung, then singing the other verses, or parts thereof, now associates you with that verse purely by the fact that it exists.

We can then probably make a start on banning the Flower of Scotland....and after that we better look closely at the National Anthem of every nation participating in the 2014 Commonwealth Games to make sure there's nothing in any of them (currently used or not) which might cause offence to any other nation.

I don't agree with or condone the singing of the Famine song, but if they are going to be making judgements in law then they have to be able to stand up to scrutiny and the basis for this Sheriffs decision is very weak (at best) IMO. The words sung by the Rangers fans should have been taken entirely on their own and a decision based on that....to do what has been done gives this guy Wall so many "outs" it's unbelievable.

Any "victory" for common sense will be short lived, and when the result is overturned on appeal it will only serve to fuel the fire of those who support their right to sing such things.

[Guest Spectre]

I thought he sung "the famine's over why don't you go home" several times which seems to be the offensive part of it?

[CaleyD]

There's nothing offensive in what he sung. Whilst we all know which famine is being referred to and who should go home....it is, technically, no more than assumption. What the court has done is say that these words are associated with the Famine Song, and that singing just those words automatically means your agree with and are promoting the rest of the words in the song and the meaning of those words.....it's this second part which is "dangerous" for the courts and what will, IMO, ultimately lead to a successful appeal.

The question is....where do you draw the line? As I highlighted above, God Save the Queen contains a verse which talks about crushing rebellious Scots - surely that's just as bad as telling a few Irish to go home. Also, Flower of Scotland talks about us rising as a Nation once more and sending the English home....much the same sentiment as the words being used by Rangers fans.

Some of the words in the Famine Song (in fact most of them) are disgusting, but these are not the words which the Rangers Fans are singing. Whilst I'm not defending them or saying they should necessarily have the right to sing them, I think that the courts would be setting a very dangerous precedent by allowing this decision to stand on the basis used by the Sheriff, or indeed by reinforcing it in a court of appeal or high court scenario where it would become just that.

The ability to create atmosphere at football has been damaged enough by over zealous and ridiculous court decisions in the past and this decision, if allowed to stand, will mean that people could find themselves lifted for saying/singing/chanting just about anything at a football match if it can somehow be connected to something which might be deemed offensive.

[DAM]

There's nothing offensive in what he sung. Whilst we all know which famine is being referred to and who should go home....it is, technically, no more than assumption. What the court has done is say that these words are associated with the Famine Song, and that singing just those words automatically means your agree with and are promoting the rest of the words in the song and the meaning of those words.....it's this second part which is "dangerous" for the courts and what will, IMO, ultimately lead to a successful appeal.

The question is....where do you draw the line? As I highlighted above, God Save the Queen contains a verse which talks about crushing rebellious Scots - surely that's just as bad as telling a few Irish to go home. Also, Flower of Scotland talks about us rising as a Nation once more and sending the English home....much the same sentiment as the words being used by Rangers fans.

Some of the words in the Famine Song (in fact most of them) are disgusting, but these are not the words which the Rangers Fans are singing. Whilst I'm not defending them or saying they should necessarily have the right to sing them, I think that the courts would be setting a very dangerous precedent by allowing this decision to stand on the basis used by the Sheriff, or indeed by reinforcing it in a court of appeal or high court scenario where it would become just that.

The ability to create atmosphere at football has been damaged enough by over zealous and ridiculous court decisions in the past and this decision, if allowed to stand, will mean that people could find themselves lifted for saying/singing/chanting just about anything at a football match if it can somehow be connected to something which might be deemed offensive.

There's nothing offensive in what he sung. Whilst we all know which famine is being referred to and who should go home....it is, technically, no more than assumption. What the court has done is say that these words are associated with the Famine Song, and that singing just those words automatically means your agree with and are promoting the rest of the words in the song and the meaning of those words.....it's this second part which is "dangerous" for the courts and what will, IMO, ultimately lead to a successful appeal.

The question is....where do you draw the line? As I highlighted above, God Save the Queen contains a verse which talks about crushing rebellious Scots - surely that's just as bad as telling a few Irish to go home. Also, Flower of Scotland talks about us rising as a Nation once more and sending the English home....much the same sentiment as the words being used by Rangers fans.

Some of the words in the Famine Song (in fact most of them) are disgusting, but these are not the words which the Rangers Fans are singing. Whilst I'm not defending them or saying they should necessarily have the right to sing them, I think that the courts would be setting a very dangerous precedent by allowing this decision to stand on the basis used by the Sheriff, or indeed by reinforcing it in a court of appeal or high court scenario where it would become just that.

The ability to create atmosphere at football has been damaged enough by over zealous and ridiculous court decisions in the past and this decision, if allowed to stand, will mean that people could find themselves lifted for saying/singing/chanting just about anything at a football match if it can somehow be connected to something which might be deemed offensive.

Perhaps the Sherriff was wearing a green and white wig and his name was Seamus O'Flattery.

[Guest Spectre]

Well I agree with your general sentiments but I think the "why don't you go home" bit is the one that's objected to at least by the people who claim it's racist.

I think there's less case to object about the parts of the song that highlight unsavoury but true things of the past.

[KingBeastie]

I don't really care about the famine song what i meant was the fact that someone is doing something about the behaviour of OF fans at an away ground. Many of the things that the OF fans sing at away grounds are not tolerated at thier own grounds but none of the non OF teams seem to do anything about it.

[The Mantis]

Some people really do live on another planet. I actually thought it was fairly harmless when I first heard it on the news, given that almost any tim you speak to seems desperate to tell you he's not Scottish.

But then I heard the whole song and realised this has been going on for ages and these neanderthals just make a life out of winding each other up. It's a game of fitba ffs. I wish Paul Daniels was better at his job, then he could just make the pair of them disappear.

[Linwoodictsc]

Some people really do live on another planet. I actually thought it was fairly harmless when I first heard it on the news, given that almost any tim you speak to seems desperate to tell you he's not Scottish.

But then I heard the whole song and realised this has been going on for ages and these neanderthals just make a life out of winding each other up. It's a game of fitba ffs. I wish Paul Daniels was better at his job, then he could just make the pair of them disappear.

i've just read the words of the song and they are disgusting IMO, would these people sing about the famine in Ethiopia or The Congo and get away with it.

what happened to one Scotland many cultures? is just the Irish or is just because these people think they

Mantis since i live in the west of Scotland i know a helluva lot of tims and never have i heard ANY of them seem desperate to tell me they're not scottish.

just for the record the words are not true, the Irish were not welcomed in Glasgow.

if they were then Celtic would probaly have not been formed.

[The Mantis]

Mantis since i live in the west of Scotland i know a helluva lot of tims and never have i heard ANY of them seem desperate to tell me they're not scottish.

I've lived there too but live in the East now. We'll just have to differ.

I was hoping that my post implied that, having heard the lyrics in full recently, I also found them disgusting.

The danger in joining in a thread like this is that inevitably people try to read into your words that you are one side of the fence or the other. Back in the days of fanzines I remember issues from both sides of the OF being passed around at work, and seeing how zealous they both are in their propaganda. Both sides can reel off lists of so-called injustices and conspiracies. Only last week there was one who rang Traynor and his whole case was based on an incident involving a ref back in the 1960s. They both claim the moral high ground but one's as bad as the other.

It's a game of fitba.

[Linwoodictsc]

Mantis since i live in the west of Scotland i know a helluva lot of tims and never have i heard ANY of them seem desperate to tell me they're not scottish.

I've lived there too but live in the East now. We'll just have to differ.

I was hoping that my post implied that, having heard the lyrics in full recently, I also found them disgusting.

The danger in joining in a thread like this is that inevitably people try to read into your words that you are one side of the fence or the other. Back in the days of fanzines I remember issues from both sides of the OF being passed around at work, and seeing how zealous they both are in their propaganda. Both sides can reel off lists of so-called injustices and conspiracies. Only last week there was one who rang Traynor and his whole case was based on an incident involving a ref back in the 1960s. They both claim the moral high ground but one's as bad as the other.

It's a game of fitba.

naw i'm certainly not saying you are in favour of one or the other

and like yourself i read their fanzines and thought they were funny because all they do is potray themselves as the poor wee victim