Tokely Offski - to Countski

[+DoofersDad]

What is it with this attitude that if you post something critical or even just express a bit of concern the suddenly you are not a supporter of the club? It's nonsense. Most of those who are expressing their concens on this forum are doing so because they support the club and want it to do well.

It seems some folk have lost touch with reality here and any difficulties that they might acknowledge are attributed to the financial position of the club and therefore somehow we are not entitled to be concerned about it. Let's look at just a coulpe of crucial positions in the side - central defence and striker.

In central defence we have now let go or lost (however you want to spin it) 2 experienced and long serving central defenders who now play for a rival SPL club. As replacements we have a defender who suffered a serious injury last year and we really do not know how he will fare next year. Other players brought in to that position last year have left (so much for rebuilding) and the position is so desparate that folk are getting terrribly excited by a player who has played 3 seasons with Newport County who finished 19th in the Conference last season. And he hasn't even signed yet.

Up front we have a striker who scored just 3 goals in 24 games and another (Shinnie) who, whilst he looked promising before sustaining injury last season is still to prove himself at this level. We made offers to our two leading scorers from last season but were unable to persuade either to stay.

Other players have been offered contracts and despite being given a deadline have still to sign. Obviously they would rather be somewhere else too.

Butcher promised to rebuild this side. Well he's certainly demolished the old side but where is the new? It's like building a house where you have been given an entry date and turn up a week before you are due to move in and find the roof isn't on yet. But no need to worry, Sir! It's all in hand.

It may be that Butcher is the man for the job and will be able to bring in hidden gems from the lower reaches of English football. He has done so before but he has also brought some dross in. But when you compare our squad at the moment with others in the SPL you have to think of us as hot favourites for drop.

So, in conclusion. Yes, I am worried but I will still be giving 100% to the team next season.

[CaleyD]

Gordie, it kinda depends on what "slant" you want to put on the finances.

Accounts for the last few years have indicated that the business has an average operating shortfall of about £250,000 per year and the situation was worsened by the near £1 Million that relegation cost us which resulted in us selling off the last of the family silver.

That's the not so good side. The slightly better side is that we have no real debt...partly because nobody is stupid enough to give us any...and we are scraping by and surviving.

With the loss of Dunfermline then we probably do have one of the tightest/smallest budgets in the SPL. Ross C*unty will likely end up being smaller, but they will have people willing to throw a few quid at it for a couple of years (as we did) which will likely give them more spends than us for now.

In terms of the squad situation...our situation is no doubt one creating due to the financial situation as we can only offer wages and deals that will appeal to the kind of players we're getting in and in order to stretch the budget as far as we can then that needs bolstering with loan players. There's a common (and mostly true) conception that loan players have part of their wages met by the club they go on loan to, but I believe some of our loan signings may have cost us next to nothing because other Managers and players themselves have seen the value in coming here to train under Butcher and get some game time....which is what I was getting at in regards to "would other Managers have that pull"....so I can't personally apportion the situation to bad management and truly do worry what like things would be under a different manager.

It's not nice and it's far from ideal, but it is what it is and the only real alternative is probably to have a squad which contains part-time players!!!

I also think our situation this season has been made to look worse because we had more loan players than planned due to injury and suspensions....so we effectively had more "leave" (go home) at the end of the season than might otherwise have been the case.

In terms of "local signings", we lost our way with that a bit during our relegation season when we were forced to cut back and it will take a year or two yet to fully recover (assuming we can maintain SPL status) so I expect that situation to improve again in time.

[+Fraz]

If he scores and celebrates il boo him. If he doesnt il maintain some respect for him.

But can't say I'm happy with him.

Why shouldn't he celebrate scoring a goal for the team that pays his wages?

to show abit of respect to the fans the supported him for 16 years of his career perhaps

So no players should celebrate scoring against their former teams? (I guess the same should apply to Munro too) Depends what you regard as celebrating, a smile, a hug from teammates? I very much doubt he'd go running up to the ICT fans jumping for joy. Perhaps just a wee wave to Butcher.

Also you say you are not happy with him? I presume for moving to County, would you have been happy to help cover his mortgage, or costs for moving house instead perhaps?

not the fact he went to county, the fact he ran to the papers the instant he seen his offer.

i dont think thats the right way to go about it, a quiet word with butcher, and a goodbye in the papers, or through a club website, or something.would have surficed. the way he went to about every paper in the land and said he wasnt happy with the club, the manager etc. its not the right way to leave after 16 years.

i can understand why at our level if hes offered something better over the bridge then i have no problem with him leaving for that but its the manor that frustrates me.

Plenty of hyperbole there. Once he ceased to be in the employ of ICT (so long as he's not telling porkies) he's fully entitled to say what he wants to the papers, free country and all. You may not like what he said perhaps but that's a different matter. I may be wrong as I don't read 'every paper in the land' but I don't recall him saying he wasn't happy with the manager or the club per se but with the contract (renumeration and his position in terms of starting place).

The manner of his departure frustrates me too but for slightly different reasons. Sad really after 16 great years. :tears:

[absent friend]

Well having read all 303 posts - my conclusion?

I really hope that some of you subscribers are not called up for jury service!!

It is wonderful how you are aware that he had his income reduced by 50% - his other half is in Inverness(instead of Aberdeen) - he fell out with the manager and a long rant about the managers mind set and then a degree of withdrawing this point and so many more.

There is no doubt you folk are correct, you express it so often - TB to the gallows - guilty party, cannot manage our wee team.

As they say in the best jury circles ..........................

"Bring in the next victim!!"

[Scarlet Pimple]

That's the fella.

John Brown 's effort at Harpers Ferry where he siezed one of two of the Union's army arsenals , was defeated by Robert E Lee. leading a troop of Marines against him.

This is very interesting because Robert E Lee subsequently became a rather brilliant tactician , outsmarting the Union army constantly when he dared to enter the Union Territory going North up the through Virginaias and thne other states on a March to Washington, which he never reached.

At that point he had become the General and supreme commander of the REBS --the Southern rebels and his brilliant startegies prolonged the war by probably several years beore the better resourced Northen Union army inevitably triumphed at Gettysburg. This two- day, horrific battle was the defining moment in the whole war and after that Lee, and what remained of his army, were always more or less on the defensive and in retreat.

The American civil war staretd at Bull Run (Appomatox ) and, strangely enough ended at the Appomatox farm where Lee finally signed his surrender document. The cost of this 5-year war? .... 500,000 casualties which was more than the total of all deaths that had occurred in all the wars that had taken place prior to this event at that time.

The benefits?--well, you can see which country emerged as the most powerful one on the panet in modern times but the South suffered hugely, with their pride shattered, their slaves dissipated and often turning on their owners, the loss of the cotton trade that had made many a plantation owner wealthy, and a countryside which had been completely ravaged and almost no family in the land left unscathed by this momentous event.

Sorry friends seem to have ot carried away --tha,s what happens when there is no footie to get all fessed up about...Och!

[Oddquine]

Once we all knew that the offer made to rossco was a poor one i for one knew that county would come straight in for him. He and his family are very settled in the area and county know this. He will be very badly missed at ICT and county's defence is looking good for the up coming season. The are not going to be easy to breeak down and i think the panic button has been well and truely pushed.

Oh crap! would that be the same panic button that has been being pressed with such monotonous regularity all last season?

I never paniced last season, was a horrific season for injuries and i dont think once we have the strongest 11 on the pitch. If we had limited injuries this season and kept the spaud together i would have been very hopeful for the coming season butover a 1/3 of the first 11 have now left the club. Should i not be worried?

Nope.....not before the signing window slams shut and we don't have a team of any kind to play when the season starts. Given the carry on so far ahead of time, if next season is bad, all you are going to have left to do to show how upset you all are is to cut your throats.

[mikeyrob73]

Football fans have extremely short memories when success is being served up. No one cares who the players are or where they have come from when your doing well.

Its now 100% going to be Butchers team, so he if he is doing well at xmas the fans will forget all about Tokely, Munro etc BUT if we are scrapping about at the bottom of the league, and playing crap football the fans will completely turn on Butcher. For me its a make or break season for our esteemed leader.

[gordieict]

Gordie, it kinda depends on what "slant" you want to put on the finances.

Accounts for the last few years have indicated that the business has an average operating shortfall of about £250,000 per year and the situation was worsened by the near £1 Million that relegation cost us which resulted in us selling off the last of the family silver.

That's the not so good side. The slightly better side is that we have no real debt...partly because nobody is stupid enough to give us any...and we are scraping by and surviving.

With the loss of Dunfermline then we probably do have one of the tightest/smallest budgets in the SPL. Ross C*unty will likely end up being smaller, but they will have people willing to throw a few quid at it for a couple of years (as we did) which will likely give them more spends than us for now.

In terms of the squad situation...our situation is no doubt one creating due to the financial situation as we can only offer wages and deals that will appeal to the kind of players we're getting in and in order to stretch the budget as far as we can then that needs bolstering with loan players. There's a common (and mostly true) conception that loan players have part of their wages met by the club they go on loan to, but I believe some of our loan signings may have cost us next to nothing because other Managers and players themselves have seen the value in coming here to train under Butcher and get some game time....which is what I was getting at in regards to "would other Managers have that pull"....so I can't personally apportion the situation to bad management and truly do worry what like things would be under a different manager.

It's not nice and it's far from ideal, but it is what it is and the only real alternative is probably to have a squad which contains part-time players!!!

I also think our situation this season has been made to look worse because we had more loan players than planned due to injury and suspensions....so we effectively had more "leave" (go home) at the end of the season than might otherwise have been the case.

In terms of "local signings", we lost our way with that a bit during our relegation season when we were forced to cut back and it will take a year or two yet to fully recover (assuming we can maintain SPL status) so I expect that situation to improve again in time.

Cheers for the reply....worrying times indeed definetly not easy for Butcher. Bascially the 250k Muirfiled investment just covered our loss then.

[Charles Bannerman]

John Brown 's effort at Harpers Ferry where he siezed one of two of the Union's army arsenals , was defeated by Robert E Lee. leading a troop of Marines against him.

God almighty Scarlet! Whose history class were you in at the IRA?

We had to be content with World War I, the Unification of Italy and the Jacobites and never got any further into the Yanks than their War of Independence!

On the other hand, when you were at school there was quite a lot less history to be covered! :lol:

Edited June 8, 2012 by Charles Bannerman

[Charles Bannerman]

Bascially the 250k Muirfiled investment just covered our loss then.

Se my post #7 on the "Where is the £250K?" thread.

[Alex MacLeod]

And if I get the 106 million I'll help him.

If I get the £126 million (yes Alex 126), I will no longer feel the need for an escape from my mundane life that ICT affords me. You won't see me for dust.

I may buy Ibrox and plant tatties though.

20 mill reserved to pay off the wife

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

how can county offer him a better contract than us though? this is the question

C*unty probably valued the "P*ssing off ICT" aspect at a couple of hundred a week in itself.

That may be actually quite near to the truth. Unfortunately I also feel that Rosscoe has done this primarily to p!ss off Butcher. However I stick to my firm believe that his termination of contract was carried out deplorably - and a mistake - BUT I also feel that Rosscoe has let down the fans, such as myself, who have supported him. In many ways, possibly OTT, I compare this (in a lesser sense) to Ally McCoist and Neil Lennon crossing the Old Filth divide. It is quite clear that Tinkerville are looking to consolidate next season and getting as much SPL experience in their squad as possible.

And - of course the previous ICT players have a real point to prove - but that does not always work out as a positive. And - yes it will require a change of tactics when we play them - although Rosscoe is not a guaranteed starter - and if anybody should know how to do that it is Terry and Mo.

Cant wait to get on P&B later

[PaderbornCaley]

how can county offer him a better contract than us though? this is the question

C*unty probably valued the "P*ssing off ICT" aspect at a couple of hundred a week in itself.

Cant wait to get on P&B later

You've been missing out! I can see the Tokely thread being near the top of the list a lot this season. Midden fans certainly helping with this.

[tm4tj]

This could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

The failure to secure Rossco for another season at least and losing him to your nearest rivals is criminal. What is going on in Butcher's head. I m disappointed at this lapse and believe that this decision alone will be the one that Butcher stands or falls by. Of course we will have to wait to see who he get's in to replace him, but we need replacements all over the park except in goal. Maybe he will sort it before the season starts, but going on past observations, then that is a long shot.

An era has endeth, I hope the new one is as good as the last one.

[CaleyD]

I think that's fair comment Manny, but I temper it with the fact that had we not been hit by so many injuries and suspensions last season (which blur past observations, IMO) and seen the full potential of the squad that we would perhaps all be a little less apprehensive about possible signings for the season ahead.

Who knows!!!!

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Most football experts say that it can take 3-4 seasons before a new manager can be truly judged and tends to be aligned with the time to build his own team and system. Butcher inherited a struggling team after the departure of Brewster. He then had a season in the SFL and then a fairly successful one in the SPL where he started his "clear out". Some would say that the injuries and suspensions played their part last season so this is now the season of reckoning.

[CELTIC1CALEY3]

http://www.overthebridge.info/showthread.php?tid=509

Rosco's move is screwing up the aspiring 2012/13 SPL champions more than it is ICT. He could still be a loose cannon planted by Terry.

[Scarlet Pimple]

I do think that Rosscoe would have thought twice about moving to Ross County had he been treated with more respect (in his view anyway) and that he could very well be bad news for ICT on derby day. If you think that another bunch of loaness will come in at the last moment and play in the derby, not knowing the other players very well nor their type of moves and play and not Terry's "new " systems etc, and save the day, you may be delusional. As IHE says, County will be concentrating on their defence and the hiring of SPL players will give them a solid advantage in this respect. This is an ambitious management.

So where is Terry going to get new and experienced SPL players from now? And can he even put a team together by the starting day of the season? Is anybody relying on the likes of Ian Black coming back? If so where would his higher wages come from?

What I am worried about is what will be the outcome at the end of this coming season? If the team gets relegated then Terry will have to go--his contract is up anyway. But will a new Manager make any difference since by then one can reasonably think that the fan base wmay be reduced a lot more, the money won't be there unless a tooth fairy arrives with a full bag of money and the next season could be even worse, because the loanees will probably have left to go back and someone will have to start the merry-go-round up again, but it definitely may not be Terry with his English contacts.

Oh My!

[Scarlet Pimple]

Why Charles it's you again?

Interesting comments which deserve an explanation.

When I emigrated to Canada, I got out of the barrel with the inward -looking staves staring me in the face as I climbed up. Then I suddenly realised, at a still relatively young age, that the horizons were much farther afield and the views were much more extensive from the top of the barrell.Not to mention the opportunities in a country countless times larger than The United Kindom with a lot less people in it and so on.

So I opened my wee eyes and never looked back . And that is why I know more about the American Civil war than you and the teachers at the IRA.

All previous wars that I had learned about in the IRA were usually about powerful Princes trying to steal vast tracts of territory from other powerful Princes. But the American Civil war was fought over very large Principles, in the North, and very entrenched attitudes in the South hell bent on retention of slavery and wealth. Each territory had their own basket of Goods and neither was at all interested in stealing that which belonged to the other. Which to me was very interesting.And very unusual don't you think? So like a good schoolboy I paid attention and read a lot.

Sometimss, opening your eyes is a bit of a shock. but when you come back to your "home " country and find that many of your former inward looking friends have no interest in how you are doing "abroad" or have no interest in what kind of a country you went to, etc., then that's an even bigger shock. Where I am now the only thing that stops me from making any change I like in my career or my life is entirely my own mindset or efforts whereas, where I came from, the class snobbery and several other similar things that I encountered as I grew up were hurdles that were insurmountable. And also prevented a fella making progress through earnest endeavour and hard work based on ability and drive and an honest approach .

Sure, you will suffer debilitating discrimination when you arrive, but so what? Get over it and get on with it.

Now Britain is almost a financial basket case with even my former employer, the mighty Royal Bank of Scotland, having gone into a moral downslide of mind-boggling proportions, their shares dropping from 23 pounds to virtually 23 pennies just a few years ago.

So, Charles, why don't you try it out for yourself? It's a neat expereince, as no doubt other new Canadians will testify to.

Hope to see you soon and we can reminisce about past good times in Blighty. Cheers the noo .