The Big Scottish Independence Debate

[Charles Bannerman]

 

 

I can't quite understand the mindset which thinks that pumping all our cash into London, 560+ miles away from Inverness is going to be much much better for us  than sending the same money to Edinburgh, which is about  400 miles nearer. I can't quite understand the mindset which thinks that it is preferable to pump money, (more than we get via Barnett), into the 610 square miles of the GLA containing 13% of the UK population rather than into the Central Belt which has about 70% of the Scottish population in the area in, around and between Edinburgh and Glasgow.

 

Also can't quite understand how it can be so much better to have 7 MPs out of 650 representing the Highlands and Islands in Westminster, as opposed to 15 MSPs out of 129 in Edinburgh doing the same.

 

Please explain your reasoning..

 

For the simple reason that 7/650 and 15/129 are both drops in the ocean, but at Westminster you have several drops in a very diverse ocean while in the Holyrood scenario all you have is a very unequal dichotomy of them.... and us - an arrangement which has left the Highlands with a decidedly bum deal at any point through history where it has been in a position to operate.

Oh, and I am presuming you don't choose London very often as a favoured holiday destination

[Oddquine]

 

 

 

 

Constantly going on about the SNP and Braveheart etc.

 

What the SNP think just now will not be how Scotland is run in 20 years time.

 

There is one reason and one reason only why we are being put through this referendum just now - the SNP proposed the legislation and the SNP ensured that it passed through Holyrood. Otherwise we would just be getting on with our lives unmolested by its sheer tedium. This is their project from start to finish.

And if what the SNP think is not how Scotland would be run in 20 years time in the event of a yes vote, why have they said, written and promised so much that depends on government policy post-2016, which they can't possibly hope to guarantee to deliver?

Quite frankly the whole referendum business is boring me to tears with politicians from both sides being distracted on to its soapboxes rather than using their energy to run our affairs. The only real relief is to have a bit of a laugh about it.

 

 

Erm.no, Charles...we could have had this referendum in the 2007-2010 term, if the Unionists in Holyrood would have allowed it, but the minority Government nixed that opportunity.  The SNP was elected in 2011 on a manifesto which had, in a prominent place,and which was certainly well publicised in the Media and in every NuLabour election leaflet, the commitment to hold a referendum in the term of this Parliament if elected.   And they were elected, which confounded the Unionists in Westminster who set up the PR system in order to negate the possibility of majority Governments, and may well have disconcerted Unionists who were simply sick fed up of NuLabour, but didn't read the papers, the election leaflets or the manifesto..but that is and was not the SNP's problem.  After all, they have never made any secret of their aspirations,have they? 

 

It may well be that the consequences of the Scottish electorate sticking two fingers up at Westminster and the UK NuLabour party was not completely thought through before they put their crosses where they did....but again, that was not the  fault of the SNP....the Scottish electorate voted for it...which was more than they did for the Westminster government.

 

Charles, are you really as thick as you sound?  if what the SNP think is not how Scotland would be run in 20 years time in the event of a yes vote, why have they said, written and promised so much that depends on government policy post-2016, which they can't possibly hope to guarantee to deliver?  Sheesh!

 

Even the dumbest ox heard Nicola Sturgeon say that part of the White Paper was an IF......as in IF the SNP was elected to Government in 2016, that was what they would aim to accomplish IF negotiations were concluded successfully.  And, to be honest, I see little reason, bar stirring, why you would even pretend to believe that the SNP will settle into Government for the next twenty years.....unless, of course, you think so much of the SNP and so little of your fellow countrymen/women that you think we are never  going to be able to produce any kind of challenge to them.

 

To an extent, after all, the SNP in the White Paper did exactly the same as Cameron and his cohorts are doing right now.....have we not already had Coalition budgets which will take us past the next General Election...“We've got to make more cuts. £17 billion this coming year. £20 billion next year. And over £25 billion further across the two years after. That's more than £60 billion in total,”.which gets us to fiscal year 2017/18....and has Cameron not  promised a referendum on the EU in, what was it, 2017? And, what is  more.they don't even bother to say IF elected..though to be fair, they don't have to, as UK NuLabour will do much the same,  as per usual.  So do you think that this means that the Conservatives are definitely going to be in Government after 2015?

 

By all means have a laugh about it......but as your comic value is absolutely nil....just make your "jokes" to yourself in future, and kindly don't inflict them on us.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Oddquine

[The Mantis]

Also can't quite understand how it can be so much better to have 7 MPs out of 650 representing the Highlands and Islands in Westminster, as opposed to 15 MSPs out of 129 in Edinburgh doing the same.

 

Please explain your reasoning..

Give the poor man a break..... He obviously wants the same thing as you, all that's left is to haggle over the level of parochialism;-)

[Oddquine]

 

Also can't quite understand how it can be so much better to have 7 MPs out of 650 representing the Highlands and Islands in Westminster, as opposed to 15 MSPs out of 129 in Edinburgh doing the same.

 

Please explain your reasoning..

Give the poor man a break..... He obviously wants the same thing as you, all that's left is to haggle over the level of parochialism;-)

 

 

Lol! Charles would say that someone who wants Scotland to be a small independent country is more parochial than someone who wants it to be a small dependent country!

[Charles Bannerman]

 

 

 

Erm.no, Charles...we could have had this referendum in the 2007-2010 term, if the Unionists in Holyrood would have allowed it, but the minority Government nixed that opportunity. 

For goodness sake Oddquine, that's about as logical as suggesting that Ibrox could be painted green and white if the Rangers fans allowed that!

Holyrood could have had this referendum any time since the place opened in 1999 if Labour, the Conservatives and the Lib Dems had wanted one - but the bottom line is that they don't because they all believe in the Union! We're having one now (well, unfortunately not until September) because, apart from the token Green(?s), the only MSPs who give a toss about this stuff are the SNP ones. This is THEIR baby. Pure and simple.

 

Well....I suppose if you're REALLY desperate, you could sort of attribute this referendum to Labour in a way. I mean the only reason the SNP vote finally stretched to giving them the overall majority they have used to push this through was Iain Gray taking refuge in a Glasgow sandwich shop during the 2011 campaign  . I think that was the final straw for poor old Labour which set the scene for the final decline of their vote and the SNP majority which is the sole reason for this referendum.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Charles Bannerman

[dougiedanger]

Does anyone actually read CB's posts any more?

[PullMyFinger]

Charles does have a point about the level of representation we have at the centre of power. There is a democratic deficit in the UK but it is greater in Scotland. Jimmy Reid foundation have a report on it and what I'd like to see is a return to town councils so local issues are dealt with locally, locally funded through tax. The town councils pooling resources for many services such as environmental health, waste management, street lighting, road maintenance, etc..

How many people on here know who their community councillor is? Their regional councillor? How many involved in their local community? I see this referendum  as only the beginning of a democratic revolution in Scotland.

 

http://allofusfirst.org/the-key-ideas/how-to-restore-local-democracy/

 

Local democracy lets communities make decisions for themselves, meaning the way your town is run reflects what the people of your town really want. The further democracy gets from the place you live, the more it reflects the interests of someone other than you. Decisions that are made far away, by people you don't know, in places that you can't get to and in ways that are kept secret from you, are not decisions that you can trust.

 

 

http://allofusfirst.org/resources/library/

 

There are a lot of ideas in there about what we as a small independent nation can do differently, we'll not get everything right (who does?) but they'll be our decisions made in Scotland by the people of Scotland at the appropriate level of governance.

[Oddquine]

Charles does have a point about the level of representation we have at the centre of power. There is a democratic deficit in the UK but it is greater in Scotland. Jimmy Reid foundation have a report on it and what I'd like to see is a return to town councils so local issues are dealt with locally, locally funded through tax. The town councils pooling resources for many services such as environmental health, waste management, street lighting, road maintenance, etc..

How many people on here know who their community councillor is? Their regional councillor? How many involved in their local community? I see this referendum  as only the beginning of a democratic revolution in Scotland.

 

http://allofusfirst.org/the-key-ideas/how-to-restore-local-democracy/

 

Local democracy lets communities make decisions for themselves, meaning the way your town is run reflects what the people of your town really want. The further democracy gets from the place you live, the more it reflects the interests of someone other than you. Decisions that are made far away, by people you don't know, in places that you can't get to and in ways that are kept secret from you, are not decisions that you can trust.

 

 

http://allofusfirst.org/resources/library/

 

There are a lot of ideas in there about what we as a small independent nation can do differently, we'll not get everything right (who does?) but they'll be our decisions made in Scotland by the people of Scotland at the appropriate level of governance.

 Got thoughts on this above, which may mean going back to the past (and of course thoughts on on Charles'  last post, which I'll get around to some time)....but I'm getting to be an auld wifie...and I've had three very late nights and am shattered ..so I'll just finish tonight with this, which I have just found and...... is apropos of nothing at all....but just because I thought it was interesting.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/10/public-money-private-wealth-london-north-v-south

[Yngwie]

BBC are reporting that the UK government is ruling out a currency union, which is one of the most significant things to have happened so far, and the first of many reality checks that rUK will do whatever is best for rUK. When Salmond's cringeworthy assistant has finished stomping her feet and shouting it's not fair, what next for the Yes campaign?

 

1) Maintain that this is just a bluff and the currency union will still happen? Hard to convince voters on something so speculative, and they still need a plan B.

2) Use sterling anyway, but have no influence at all on interest rates, money supply, exchange rates, inflation etc. Recipe for disaster.

3) Join the Euro (which may well have to happen anyway as a condition of getting accepted into the EU). Another recipe for disaster, until such time as the Eurozone countries have full political and economic alignment, which then means not being independent at all. Give me Westminster over Brussels any day.

4) Go it alone, with Scottish groats or such like. Best option for winning the referendum? True independence, and voters would at least know what they are getting.

[Charles Bannerman]

 

 

Even the dumbest ox heard Nicola Sturgeon say that part of the White Paper was an IF......as in IF the SNP was elected to Government in 2016, that was what they would aim to accomplish IF negotiations were concluded successfully.  And, to be honest, I see little reason, bar stirring, why you would even pretend to believe that the SNP will settle into Government for the next twenty years.....unless, of course, you think so much of the SNP and so little of your fellow countrymen/women that you think we are never  going to be able to produce any kind of challenge to them.

 

 

What Nicola Sturgeon has said is: "'Scotland's Future' is a Scottish Government publication developed and drafted by civil servants under the direction of ministers. Officials developed 'Scotland's Future' as part of their normal duties in support of Scottish ministers in line with the Civil Service code."

So what legitimate part does detailing SNP party policy have in a publicly funded document assembled using public resources? The following quote from Alex Salmond also begs that very same question:

"The White Paper sets out the policies of the Scottish National Party that will transform the lot of the poor and low paid in Scotland."

So it looks as if the top two in the SNP are simply confirming that half a million quid of our money has been spent on what is to a large extent an SNP election manifesto.

 

By the way, do you not think Iain Gray's 2011 visit to the sandwich shop and the part it played in the current SNP majority is a missed sponsorship opportunity on their part? Imagine the scene.....

This referendum comes to you courtesy of SUBWAY!!!!

 

"Haggis and neep footlong on Hearty Caledonian please."

 

"Certainly Mr Gray.

Would you like lettuce on it?

Salt?

Pepper?

Cheese?

Tomato?

Olives?

 

Oh... and should Scotland be an independent country?

 

How would you like to pay sir? We can't use sterling and we don't have a Plan B......."

Edited February 12, 2014 by Charles Bannerman

[Kingsmills]

You forget Charles that Sterling is not the property of the Westminster government of the day and belongs just as much to the Scots as to the rest of the UK.

 

This is simply more bluster and posturing from the No camp. There are many examples of nations using, for practical purposes, the currency of other states most notably the US dollar. Both Australia and New Zealand continued to use Sterling for money years after any formal monetary union with the UK.

 

For what it's worth, despite being a passionate believer and advocate of independence having been convinced of the economic, social and cultural case since the 70s, I doubt if there will be a yes vote this year.

 

The Scots are cautious and conservative, with a small c, and the disingenuous No campaign are wealthy an influential. However, much like devolution, while it may not arrive at the first attempt, sovereign independence will come in the end.

 

That will, in my opinion, be to the advantage of England as well as Scotland and the English will find themselves with an empathetic and resourceful neighbour rather than a surly and resentful lodger.

[The Mantis]

BBC are reporting that the UK government is ruling out a currency union, which is one of the most significant things to have happened so far, and the first of many reality checks that rUK will do whatever is best for rUK. When Salmond's cringeworthy assistant has finished stomping her feet and shouting it's not fair, what next for the Yes campaign?

 

1) Maintain that this is just a bluff and the currency union will still happen? Hard to convince voters on something so speculative, and they still need a plan B.

2) Use sterling anyway, but have no influence at all on interest rates, money supply, exchange rates, inflation etc. Recipe for disaster.

3) Join the Euro (which may well have to happen anyway as a condition of getting accepted into the EU). Another recipe for disaster, until such time as the Eurozone countries have full political and economic alignment, which then means not being independent at all. Give me Westminster over Brussels any day.

4) Go it alone, with Scottish groats or such like. Best option for winning the referendum? True independence, and voters would at least know what they are getting.

Yes, all good points.

Yes, I think that Osborne is bluffing, but sadly it's a bluff that is likely to pay off at the polls.

For me though, it lays bare the fundamental dishonesty at the heart of the Westminster case for holding on to Scotland. I don't think you can reconcile Dave's love-bombing of last week with this naked aggression. Either we're a basket case that can be set adrift and destroy ourselves easily without Westminster's help, or there's something they're not telling us.

 

Wee Nicola? Hardly more cringeworthy than messrs Lamont, Rennie etc. Not straying into Bannerman territory are you 

 

I'm flying off to Lewis so will be more or less out of contact for a few days. Never mind I'll have pages of Central Belter/Quinie top banter to look forward to on Sunday night unless my flight's cancelled 

[The Mantis]

Shockerooney!

[Oddquine]

Shockerooney!

     But not that funny when you think some of the other troch they've come up with.

 

Commonsense on the currency........http://www.cmonscotland.org/#!Currency/c112t/C1626DDC-F8BF-40C4-98AE-26D348F165F3

 

So no currency union? Who cares?

 

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-02-12/scotland-would-not-need-permission-to-use-pound/

Edited February 12, 2014 by Oddquine

[Yngwie]

Wee Nicola? Hardly more cringeworthy than messrs Lamont, Rennie etc.

 

Totally agreed - but at least the 2 you mention have no chance of ever being in charge of an independent Scotland! It just does ma heid in when I see Sturgeon repeatedly displaying either ignorance or naivety on matters of the greatest magnitude like currency and EU, always telling us that these other entities should do what's best for Scotland. Incidentally I don't have a bad word to say about Salmond, not many anyway.  I don't admire many politicans at all but he is definitely one of the better ones. 

[Yngwie]

Commonsense on the currency........http://www.cmonscotland.org/#!Currency/c112t/C1626DDC-F8BF-40C4-98AE-26D348F165F3

 

"Better Together types perpetually call an independent Scottish currency the 'Groat'"

 

 

4) Go it alone, with Scottish groats or such like.

 

 

I can honestly say I've never heard it called that before! The slang term for our groat would of course be a "johno".

[Oddquine]

BBC are reporting that the UK government is ruling out a currency union, which is one of the most significant things to have happened so far, and the first of many reality checks that rUK will do whatever is best for rUK. When Salmond's cringeworthy assistant has finished stomping her feet and shouting it's not fair, what next for the Yes campaign?

 

1) Maintain that this is just a bluff and the currency union will still happen? Hard to convince voters on something so speculative, and they still need a plan B.

2) Use sterling anyway, but have no influence at all on interest rates, money supply, exchange rates, inflation etc. Recipe for disaster.

3) Join the Euro (which may well have to happen anyway as a condition of getting accepted into the EU). Another recipe for disaster, until such time as the Eurozone countries have full political and economic alignment, which then means not being independent at all. Give me Westminster over Brussels any day.

4) Go it alone, with Scottish groats or such like. Best option for winning the referendum? True independence, and voters would at least know what they are getting.

 Re point 2...we have no influence at all on interest rates, money supply, exchange rates, inflation etc now....and we are without the fiscal tools to compensate for that fact. With independence we would still be in a better position than we are currently in as part of the union.

[Oddquine]

 

Commonsense on the currency........http://www.cmonscotland.org/#!Currency/c112t/C1626DDC-F8BF-40C4-98AE-26D348F165F3

 

"Better Together types perpetually call an independent Scottish currency the 'Groat'"

 

 

4) Go it alone, with Scottish groats or such like.

 

 

I can honestly say I've never heard it called that before! The slang term for our groat would of course be a "johno".

 

 Then you don't read a lot of anti-independence posts on FB!

[Yngwie]

 Re point 2...we have no influence at all on interest rates, money supply, exchange rates, inflation etc now....and we are without the fiscal tools to compensate for that fact. With independence we would still be in a better position than we are currently in as part of the union.

 

At the moment, though, the decisions taken on these monetary matters are at least made based on UK-wide economic data. Post independence, the Bank of England would only consider rUK's requirements, which is fine if Scotland's happen to be the same. But when the economies start moving at different speeds, which will happen not least because of the volatilities of the oil industry, you've got a major problem.

[Oddquine]

 

 Re point 2...we have no influence at all on interest rates, money supply, exchange rates, inflation etc now....and we are without the fiscal tools to compensate for that fact. With independence we would still be in a better position than we are currently in as part of the union.

 

At the moment, though, the decisions taken on these monetary matters are at least made based on UK-wide economic data. Post independence, the Bank of England would only consider rUK's requirements, which is fine if Scotland's happen to be the same. But when the economies start moving at different speeds, which will happen not least because of the volatilities of the oil industry, you've got a major problem.

 

 

I'm hoping/assuming that by the time that happens, we'll have organised our own currency.  Personally, I've never thought of a currency union as essential or permanent...and never thought that using sterling would be more than a short/medium  term happening in order to get ourselves sorted in any case......and also produce a record of servicing any debt in order to help interest rates when we go it alone.  We're kinda in the position of someone who can't get a loan from anybody but Wonga, because we don't have a credit record as we have never been allowed a credit card.

[Charles Bannerman]

fiscal tool

 

You mean John Swinney?

[SMEE]

Can anyone tell me.....if....as i strongly suspect, The Independence vote decides to stay with the union....what happens to scotland then?

Will they seek more powers for the scottish govt? Will they try and get another vote in a few years?

 

I would love to see an Independent Scotland...but im tempted not to vote, becasue no one from either side can give cast iron assurances as to what is going to happen. Sure as sh1t.....the Yes campaingers will come out and make a statement and the No campaigners will shoot it down. And the opposite is also true. if i am to vote yes...i want assurances....not mps assumptions

[Joe DiMaggio]

Can anyone tell me.....if....as i strongly suspect, The Independence vote decides to stay with the union....what happens to scotland then?

Will they seek more powers for the scottish govt? Will they try and get another vote in a few years?

 

I would love to see an Independent Scotland...but im tempted not to vote, becasue no one from either side can give cast iron assurances as to what is going to happen. Sure as sh1t.....the Yes campaingers will come out and make a statement and the No campaigners will shoot it down. And the opposite is also true. if i am to vote yes...i want assurances....not mps assumptions

 

If you want to see an Independent Scotland then this is the only chance you will ever have. There has not been a vote in the last 300 years and Westminster will make sure they don't lose their grip on Scotland anytime soon after a no vote.

 

Can Scotland govern itself? Yes of course it can.

 

Are decisions that effect Scotland best made in Scotland by a government Scotland voted for or in Westminster by a government voted in by the South of England who doesn't and never will have Scotland as its priority? This is almost hypothetical it is so obvious.

 

Has any other country in the history of the world ever crawled back aksing to be taking in by UK rule again as they realised independence was a mistake? No, never.

 

Is Scotland a rich country, rich enough to able to govern itself? Yes we would be one of the richest countries in the world by GPD per head of population.

 

So what is holding you back? Westminsters desire to hold onto Scotland at any cost. I wonder why that would be.

 

You can either vote yes due to hope and oppertunity and the chance to finally be a nation again. Or you can vote no out of trepidation and timidness and one day doubtlessly fill a cowards grave.

 

It is now or never to see an independent Scotland. Don't regret it and think years down the line that we should have taken this oppertunity.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Joe DiMaggio

[Oddquine]

http://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2014/02/12/where-did-the-love-go/

 

A quote from part of it...........(as usual bolding is mine)

 

Right, so Scotland is poor, weak, and helpless, kept afloat solely by the good graces and financial acumen of the UK Treasury, steered through the choppy waters of the big scary world by captains who love us and cherish us and let us on the boat for free.   See, sometimes drugs do work.

 

We’re a charity case with nothing to offer.  But this is the condition Scotland is in after being governed by Westminster for over 300 years.   The Union has left us as damaged goods, a basket case reduced to pleading for free passage.  And that’s despite the industry we no longer have and those we still do, like the oil and renewables and the whisky and all the rest.  It happened even though we have a highly educated and skilled population who inhabit a country with an embarrassing excess of natural resources.

 

Someone must have mismanaged those resources terribly.  Who could that have been then?  Oh…  And we’re supposed to be Better Together with these people?

[IBM]

Keep going with the posts Oddquine I hope you manage to convince some of those sitting on the fence, it is a bit like ICT against all the big teams but we all can win!  Have an early night.