Should Scotland be an independent country

[Alex MacLeod]

 

 

 

 

My vision is for a country who will do this in all conflict areas including southern Africa which has been largely ignored; there's no oil there so the international corporations won't be lobbying their governments to act.

 

 

Correction PMF. Proven African oil reserves are estimated at 133,000 billion barrels, equivalent to close on 10% of the worlds reserves.  

So let me get this straight. Even though oil seems to be the only thing you ever think about, you Separatist chaps still don't seem to be able to agree about where it is!

 

Oh well, I suppose that does sort of square with the statistical wishlist which emerges from Neverendum HQ every so often!

 

How typical of a Better Together supporter. Dont counter argue. Just smear.

[PullMyFinger]

 

 

 

No doubt we'll be getting involved in another Middle East conflict which will see many more Scots soldiers coming home in body bags too.

 

Is your vision of Scotland a country that would just stand back and allow genocide then? One which refuses to take part in international military operations, but would fully expect its NATO partners to step in to protect Scotland?

 

The only think more defenceless than an independent Scotland is that stance!

 

 

My vision is for a country that would try to get both sides round the table before events dictate the magnitude of international response to negotiate their differences in a respectful manner, failing that following UN resolutions on the matter, participating in NATO action and finally a peacekeeping mission and withdrawal.

 

My vision is for a country who will do this in all conflict areas including southern Africa which has been largely ignored; there's no oil there so the international corporations won't be lobbying their governments to act.

 

War is always about money and when the west gets involved you will see the same corporations and individuals cleaning up.

 

Correction PMF. Proven African oil reserves are estimated ..... there are also vast reserves in Gabon, Congo, Cameroon, Tunisia, Equatorial Guinea, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, and Cote d'Ivoire. Further to all those exploration is currently taking place in Chad, Sudan, Namibia, South Africa and Madagascar while Mozambique and Tanzania are potential high volume gas producers. It is also reckoned that many of the other countries could also prove fruitful in oil and gas but much has to be done before any exploration can take place to preserve and protect the vast nature reserves and areas of scientific interest all over the African continent.

 

As for your vision. Yes that would be great but that can only happen in an ideal world. A world where the super powers could all agree. Unfortunately thats a long way off and meanwhile innocent people are being murdered. Actions have to be taken to show any nation that its wrong to do what has been done in Syria. I would hope that an independant Scotland would be one of the loudest voices and one of those prepared to take action against such atrocities.

 

Well, I stand corrected. I wasn't aware that there was so much oil in Africa, I thought it was just around the Sahara.

 

What irks me about the situation in Syria is that this has been happening for so long and then all of a sudden it's talks of bombs which kill many more people. There are many more areas of conflict in the world but we only seem to report on the ones where our ruling classes have a financial interest and then we all have to pay either through taxation or human life.

 

 

 

 

 

My vision is for a country who will do this in all conflict areas including southern Africa which has been largely ignored; there's no oil there so the international corporations won't be lobbying their governments to act.

 

 

Correction PMF. Proven African oil reserves are estimated at 133,000 billion barrels, equivalent to close on 10% of the worlds reserves.  

So let me get this straight. Even though oil seems to be the only thing you ever think about, you Separatist chaps still don't seem to be able to agree about where it is!

 

Oh well, I suppose that does sort of square with the statistical wishlist which emerges from Neverendum HQ every so often!

 

 

We can agree on one thing Charles, there is no positive case for the Union.

 

Neverendum HQ? That's hilarious! Did you come up with that all by yourself?

 

Try contributing to the thread, have a pop by all means but be objective and who knows you might convert a few voters.

[The Mantis]

So ...................

 

 

Is .......................

Does anybody else remember the old fable about the sun and the wind having a competition to get the old man's coat off

 

Edited August 28, 2013 by TheMantis
wee smiley thing

[Oddquine]

 

No doubt we'll be getting involved in another Middle East conflict which will see many more Scots soldiers coming home in body bags too.

 

Is your vision of Scotland a country that would just stand back and allow genocide then? One which refuses to take part in international military operations, but would fully expect its NATO partners to step in to protect Scotland?

 

The only think more defenceless than an independent Scotland is that stance!

 

Seems to me the UK itself has little to preen about when it comes to standing back and allowing genocide..don't you think?How do you differentiate genocide from civil war, anyway?  Is what is happening in ~Syria actually genocide or a continuing Civil War??

 

Did the UK go in like Flynn over the decade long situation in Darfur? Did we do it in Iraq when Saddam actually did gas the Marsh Arabs?  Did we help the Tutsis in Rwanda?  Have we ever gone in anywhere just to help the ordinary people, when genocide became the logical interpretation of the fighting, rather than than wait until after a few more thousand civilian deaths in order to support our preferred winner (if he wasn't going to manage it on his own)?  How much military help have we given over the decades to save the lives of the Palestinians? How many more have died in Syria since Christmas when gas was reportedly first used and we did nothing?

 

Where do you get your refuses to take part in international military operations. I'm quite sure we will if they are perceived to be warranted, as the very last resort and for good reasons.....but care to tell me how many genocides and other mass murders the UN has managed to get the Big Five to permit legal action against, over the decades, given that genocides etc have killed more than all international wars in the last century added together.

 

To be fair to the UK, they only do anything if the USA primes the pump first, in order to ennsure the preservation of this mythical concept of a "special relationship"  I do sometimes wonder, if the criteria for inserting UK forces into countries which do not threaten us, included an immutable obligation for our politicians to offer their nearest old enough relation (son, nephew, grandson or female equivalents etc) to serve on the front line in the conflict....how many of them would still then be voting for interfering anywhere the USA wants us to interfere?

 

We will not, in Scotland, do state aggression.......we'll leave that to the rest of the Island...but we'll do state defending.....and without Nuclear weapons.  That stance appears a lot more sensible than getting into fights hanging onto the coat-tails of the USA just because we want to pretend we are still as important in the world as we were in the days when we were invading it, and into the bargain, the days when we were unthinkingly setting up a lot of the problems the world is now facing (like Islamic Terrorism).

 

I'd much rather see a Scotland which does not predicate its reaction to ongoing war crimes like genocide to just what will benefit them either directly or indirectly, but which limits its help to providing available resources to take part in legally constituted interferences by whichever international body we happen to have joined.  Can't, tbh, see that happening timeously in any case, however obviously required, via the UN, given the five vetoes, applied only in their own country's specific Interests...which tends to mean that there is a lot of talk but little action.

[PullMyFinger]

Ooft, you go girl!!!

[Yngwie]

Where do you get your refuses to take part in international military operations.

 

My mistake, but I've heard it put forward so many times that a reason for independence is that we won't get involved in foreign conflicts, I thought it was Yes party policy!

[Alex MacLeod]

Whats this Yes party?

[Oddquine]

 

Where do you get your refuses to take part in international military operations.

 

My mistake, but I've heard it put forward so many times that a reason for independence is that we won't get involved in foreign conflicts, I thought it was Yes party policy!

 

Lol!  There is no Yes Party to have any policies...but hey, if you want to believe the pro-Unionist crap, who am I to stop you...I'll bet you think they are just a cover for Alex Salmond and the SNP's effort to gain world power as so many Unionists do!

 

I don't think I have heard anyone ever saying we would refuse (though given I'm not overly enthusiastic about being a member of a NATO or the EU.......though I could just about live with the UN....I could certainly wish we will whoever we ally ourselves with, if the operation is perceived as unacceptable).  But you will undoubtedly have read/heard some of us saying stuff like we would not have to be involved in excursions into foreign lands, who are not a threat to us, carrying guns to change regimes, acquire oilfields for Oil Companies,  maintain the profits of armaments companies.or keep Israel sweet.  If you choose to interpret that POV as refusing to take part in international  military conflicts......maybe we have different ideas about what constitutes a good reason to go into another country and kill civilians to "save" them.

[Yngwie]

Re the Yes party policy, I didn't think a   would be necessary!

[ICTPaisley]

So if we become Independent do we get our own passports?  As i was born in England but raised in the highlands would i be entitled to a Scottish passport?

[Charles Bannerman]

So if we become Independent do we get our own passports?  As i was born in England but raised in the highlands would i be entitled to a Scottish passport?

And as the holder of a United Kingdom passport, because the UK is the country in which I was born, I am assuming that - along with others like minded - I would be entitled to retain it since I should not be obliged to surrender it in the event of the majority of voters in my local area of the UK deciding that they want to separate from it.

[Charles Bannerman]

Whats this Yes party?

The sycophantic Yes Men Salmond has got assembled round about him?

[PullMyFinger]

 

Where do you get your refuses to take part in international military operations.

 

My mistake, but I've heard it put forward so many times that a reason for independence is that we won't get involved in foreign conflicts, I thought it was Yes party policy!

 

 

Replace foreign with illegal and you're getting closer to the beliefs of most people I have spoken to and that's on both sides of the debate.

 

 

Whats this Yes party?

The sycophantic Yes Men Salmond has got assembled round about him?

 

 

Another well thought out post Chuckie, well played!

 

I see Labour for Independence is growing, care to comment? Maybe not, eh?

[Oddquine]

Re the Yes party policy, I didn't think a   would be necessary!

 

Come on, I'm on record on here as saying I take posts as they are written, not being a mind-reader. How hard is it to do a one click smilie insertion like anyway, if you meant it to be taken as <tongue in cheek>?  I have read all your posts on this thread.....which is why I didn't even consider you weren't being serious.

[dougiedanger]

 

So if we become Independent do we get our own passports?  As i was born in England but raised in the highlands would i be entitled to a Scottish passport?

And as the holder of a United Kingdom passport, because the UK is the country in which I was born, I am assuming that - along with others like minded - I would be entitled to retain it since I should not be obliged to surrender it in the event of the majority of voters in my local area of the UK deciding that they want to separate from it.

 

 

Churchillian, CB, Churchillian.

 

Oh, yes.

[Oddquine]

 

So if we become Independent do we get our own passports?  As i was born in England but raised in the highlands would i be entitled to a Scottish passport?

And as the holder of a United Kingdom passport, because the UK is the country in which I was born, I am assuming that - along with others like minded - I would be entitled to retain it since I should not be obliged to surrender it in the event of the majority of voters in my local area of the UK deciding that they want to separate from it.

 

That would kinda depend on the pouting and foot stamping levels of the Westminster Government, wouldn't it?  And anyway.technically.there won't BE a UK if Scotland ducks out of the Union, so the point is moot.

 

As Theresa May said  Decisions on UK citizenship remain with the UK Government, but if the vote in the referendum is for a separatist vote then Scotland will become a separate state – it will not be part of the UK."   and Scots could be forced to hand over their British passports and be barred from holding dual nationality with the UK after independence,..I would assume not. ....so kinda looks as if she hasn't quite grasped the concept of Scottish Independence and its effect on what used to be the UK..and Britain as an artificial blanket nationality introduced 300+ years ago. 

 

Salmond may like to think the rUK will be sensible and act their ages not their shoe size, when it comes to post-vote negotiations, if we vote for Independence...but on current Project Fear performance, I have real doubts about that.  But sure as hell, I'm not about to be happy if negotiations mean we have to keep Trident just so you can keep your UK Passport until it expires.(I honestly can't see it being renewed after that unless you go South of the Border to live in any event.)

 

Personally, I'd think a Scottish Passport would be a lot more acceptable in more of the world than holding a UK passport is, given the efforts of Westminster to make the UK so flaming unpopular.

[Tichy_Blacks_Back]

Would it be red or blue - now that is the really important question? ;-)

https://www.google.com/search?q=scottish+passport&client=ms-android-samsung&source=android-browser&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=iDggUrbjAYSctQb0uoC4Bw&sqi=2&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAA&biw=360&bih=566&sei=izggUqXvM4LQtAbN8oCQAg#biv=i%7C0%3Bd%7ChKue9ceItgFq1M%3A

Edited August 30, 2013 by Tichy_Blacks_Back

[Oddquine]

Would it be red or blue - now that is the really important question? ;-)

https://www.google.com/search?q=scottish+passport&client=ms-android-samsung&source=android-browser&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=iDggUrbjAYSctQb0uoC4Bw&sqi=2&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAA&biw=360&bih=566&sei=izggUqXvM4LQtAbN8oCQAg#biv=i%7C0%3Bd%7ChKue9ceItgFq1M%3A

 

Depends if we are in the EU.......because they are Burgundy, whether we like it or not. 

[starchief]

As long as its not green and white hoops, I can live with it.

[Alex MacLeod]

Personally I'd compromise and make it red and black.

 

My understanding of the passport situation is that anyone living in Scotland, who meets the residential criteria if not Scots born, will be entitled to a Scottish passport, as will any Scots born living in England. Those who meet the residential criteria will be entitled to dual nationality with the country of their birth. That could be crap but its how I understand things

[Alex MacLeod]

 

Whats this Yes party?

The sycophantic Yes Men Salmond has got assembled round about him?

 

You mean like yon socialist stalwart Dennis Canavan.

[Joe DiMaggio]

There is someone who put a post on the Tartan army board and he is getting views on independence to see how they relate to club supporters. He mentioned he put a post on the forum but it was deleted and he was banned. I know some admin are close to having a heart attack when a post is in the wrong forum so I said I would stick the link in here to get ICT fans to vote. Will be interesting to see the results as I imagine all clubs fans in Scotland will return a YES majority, maybe with the exception of one...

 

Here is the link anyway. http://kwiksurveys.com/app/rendersurvey.asp?sid=dgbgy3f5x8362bh209408

[Joe DiMaggio]

Seems he put it in this forum. No idea why it was deleted

[Alex MacLeod]

Dont think he did Joe. I certainly dont remember that one and its not the norm to delete anything without mods discussion first.

[Scotty]

Seems he put it in this forum. No idea why it was deleted

 

His account was registered and automatically flagged by the system as a spammer. This can happen in two ways.

 

1. If a user registers, immediately starts a new thread (which he did), and then posts an external link in his first post these are all seen as red flags by the spam prevention system. The system flags the account and removes the post without any moderator intervention.

 

2. If another site has reported his username, email or IP address(es) to one or more of the most common spam databases, even if that site did not ban him, our system would take that into account if any of those three identifiers appear on the spam database. Our system checks various resources like project honeypot, SFS, IPS, Akismet etc., for known spammers and automatically flags it if one or more of those identifiers appear on one of those lists.

 

I did see it flagged, but did not reinstate as it also falls into our SPAM definition in our terms of service. If he had posted in this thread rather than starting a new one, or given the mods a heads up prior to posting, I wouldn't have batted an eyelid and would have said go for it, but the system weeded him out automatically and that's the explanation.

 

Link is here now so no worries. He can PM me via contact link if he wants access to participate in this thread and I will be happy to reverse the auto flagging of his account.