Disappointed in Butcher?.

[CaleyD]

I appreciate where your coming from, I just don't agree with it or some of the justification for it.

Football is all about idolising players/managers etc....it's what drives the passion, builds the atmosphere and pushes people on to perform at their very best. For that reason I don't see any problem with people getting a little excited over Butcher (or any of the players). It's part and partial of the game and has been since Charlie Bannerman was a boy.

Yes, fans can be fickle, but that's part and partial of the whole football scene. Brewster was ripping the heart out of the team, and as a result, the fans, and I think that's why people turned on him so vociferously....that was my own personal "biggie" against the guy (as manager). He did himself no favours on the PR front either.

Butcher can work the press, and his words alone will win round a lot of fans.....but surely that's a good thing, as the more people you have on side, the more support the team gets on matchday and the bigger the lift the supporters provide. It all helps, and whilst I don't think he should go without criticism when things don't go according to plan, we're looking at one (really) poor result here and a good few people seem to have totally lost the plot on the subject.

[Johnboy]

The point I have been trying to make and will continue to make is he and MM are not the Messiah and JTB. They are at best good football people with a reasonable grasp for the game, at worst incompetent coaches who belong on the TV or elsewhere. The adulation and sycophantic hero worship afforded TB in particular is repugnant when compared to the abuse dished out to his predecessor. And why? Because he played 300 games for England with a stupid bandage on? Because he helped Rangers win nine in a row? Because he's a great after dinner speaker? I want a good coach.

I'm still broadly in agreement with you, Sorted.... but... if we are to suffer many more performances like yesterday's, you won't have to wait too long until the abuse dished out to TB, will make that dished out to Brewster seem like requests for an encore.

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

I'm not disappoint in Butcher at all. and I'm a long way from thinking his appointment was a mistake or that any consideration should be given to replacing him.

Look at just how fecked up this team was when he took over and how he managed to lift them and at least give us a fighting chance of survival last season. He then had to do the job all over again to lift the guys after relegation whilst working with a signing remit that made wages available but gave him nothing for signing fees meaning he had to find players for free.

Frankly, I am disappointed in Butcher. I was at the end of last season when I was probably in a minority by blaming him for letting safety slip through our fingers. I still maintain that when we were virtually safe with three games to go, a decent manager would have adopted tactics in the final 3 games to ensure us staying up.

I didn't agree with letting Vigurs and Wood go, replacing them with unproven players of no greater ability it would seem. As far as I can see his tactics, player aquisitition, team selection, and motivational skills still leave a lot to be desired . I hope he can prove me wrong, but his well documented track record in management doesn't fill me with confidence. I would guess that he and Maurice are costing the club considerably more than their immediate predessessors. I think they really need to step up to yhe plate quickly, to prove thet are worth it.

Good post mate . I agree with all your saying as I for one didn't want Butcher and Malpas in the first place .

[Mike]

For the best two prospects we had ? Did you notice Brewster giving Vigars a warm hand shake when he came off? Yet it was the same person who wouldn't give him the time of day when he was with ICT! Woods couldn't even start, are you telling me that they are better than what we have?

[Sorted]

I appreciate where your coming from, I just don't agree with it or some of the justification for it.

Football is all about idolising players/managers etc....it's what drives the passion, builds the atmosphere and pushes people on to perform at their very best. For that reason I don't see any problem with people getting a little excited over Butcher (or any of the players). It's part and partial of the game and has been since Charlie Bannerman was a boy.

Yes, fans can be fickle, but that's part and partial of the whole football scene. Brewster was ripping the heart out of the team, and as a result, the fans, and I think that's why people turned on him so vociferously....that was my own personal "biggie" against the guy (as manager). He did himself no favours on the PR front either.

Butcher can work the press, and his words alone will win round a lot of fans.....but surely that's a good thing, as the more people you have on side, the more support the team gets on matchday and the bigger the lift the supporters provide. It all helps, and whilst I don't think he should go without criticism when things don't go according to plan, we're looking at one (really) poor result here and a good few people seem to have totally lost the plot on the subject.

CD -"since Charlie Bannerman was a boy" :D

We agree to disagree somewhat and both support our team. That's if Alex hasn't had me put on an exclusion order :P

[dalneighboy]

Having a Financial Services background I'm a great believer in the strap line that points out to people that "past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results". I will also only judge Butcher on what he has done since coming to us, and as far as I can see he's done pretty well with what he's been given to work with.

Part of the problem we have at the moment is that the club have filled the fans heads with this "We'll bounce straight back" promise, but we've not seen any real evidence that they are supporting that. Our board are making promises that they are expecting other people to take responsibility and liability for.

As I said, given the fact Butcher was given no transfer money, only a wage budget, is proof positive that those making the promises aren't willing to put their money where their mouth is....instead they're driving this club towards financial disaster with half ass'd attempts at going for promotion and the kind of wishful thinking that saw us relegated in the first place.....and it's Butcher and the players who will carry the can if that doesn't happen.

As it happens, I do think Butcher has amassed a squad capable of deliver....that confidence comes from my being a fan and it being my place to have confidence in the manager and players until such time as they prove otherwise....and one bad game/result doesn't prove otherwise. If Butcher starts making the same mistakes week after week and the players continue to perform below what I think they are capable off then that will be the time to criticise....but we're only 4 games into the season in what is an historically tight division where nobody is running away with it and where we're not cast adrift from the top so I see absolutely no reason for the hysteria and panic.

So he has done well has he, relegation says it all, he had chances to keep us up but quite frankly blew it good style. Since then he has failed to identify the squads deficiencies and make signings to address these failings, instaed he has concentrated on signing unexperienced and untested youngsters. His wage budget could have been spent more wisely.

What experienced players could we get for free though? Robbie Winters maybe.

I cant think of anyone else for free that is experienced

He wouldn't have had to sign so many if he hadn't let two like Vigurs and Wood go!! A considerable amount of TB's problems are self inflicted as I see it.

I totally agree he should have kept Vigars and Wood who as far as I am aware didn't even want to leave. I don't think Foran is comfortable as centre forward as he would be far more effective working just behind the frontline. Does anybody think Lionel could be moved into midfield instead of full back where he can't do so much damage?

[Johnboy]

I totally agree he should have kept Vigars and Wood who as far as I am aware didn't even want to leave. I don't think Foran is comfortable as centre forward as he would be far more effective working just behind the frontline. Does anybody think Lionel could be moved into midfield instead of full back where he can't do so much damage?

I agree with all of that.... and yes, Lionel played in midfield, or even up front, wouldn't do so much damage. He'd also be more likely to score than the likes of Rooney or Barrowman.

I love the guy.

[Scarlet Pimple]

EXACTLY!!!!!!

Move Lionel up front , even on the wing and let him run the opposition ragged, Can't be bad and if it silences the bood boys on here tyhat will be great too.

Lionel has something intangible in his personality that people like --a sort of honesty of approac h and a fallibilty that hides our own faults so.....

Scarlet baby love Lionel.

Eh Caley D?

[absent friend]

I think if I were Butcher and MM reading this, my ear would be to the ground for the chance of a move away before the easily lead, fickle Inverness fans, go to town once more, on their forum.

Let's move this on, you, the fans, have now managed to undermine our management team so where does this leave us?

Obviously there are no comparable managers about that will come to a club with this fickle fan base to move them on.

As manager after manager is offloaded, and this fact is becoming more evident, our team is on a downward spiral to division three, lacking good long term management, making the chance of recruiting a decent manager even more remote.

This small minority of posters will, by then, have done their work on this forum having lead the fickle fans by the nose and returned to their first love, Ross County, with their mission accomplished.

Remember it is always easier to disrupt from within than without.

[acharacleoracle]

OK boys and girls time to get this thread back on track. Thanks to those who have taken the time to add comments.

The questions were quite simple:

1.Why were no Scottish players signed during Buthchers signing spree?.

2.As Scotland Asst coach is this a good example to set for other Scottish Managers to follow?

3.Why sign so many youngsters when we have plenty of them coming up through the youth system?.

4.And were all these signings made simply to oust our previous managers players?.

There have been some interesting replies so let me summarise but please read their entire posts to get their full opinion.

Old Caley Girl says ?leave them alone they are only youngsters?, so do will leave them to wander, leaderless down the abyss?.

Jaggie 1994 reckons ?they need time to gel? and ?they play better away from home?

Sorted ?I share this mans views?

Caley D ?Fianancial prudence, a confirmed Butcher fan and a Lionel fan as well?

Alex Macleod ? out of 300 unemployed Scottish players non are good enough?

Theman4thejob ? suggests the club have brought this situation on themselves with the straight back up line?

The names Brewster and Christie have crept into the threads but lets not go there they have been done to death in other topics over the last couple of years.

By the way I am not suggesting anything in the way of a crisis, hopefully, Saturday was just a blip. I am simply questioning Butchers signing strategy and seeking the views of others.

Reading through all the replies I have also got to ask a couple more questions:

Is it possible for Butcher to hold down both of his coaching roles and give 100% to both?.

And what did happen between Butcher and Dale Gillespie?.

[latviaman]

Advised to place my thought on this thread as the thread it was on has now been closed. Twice in a day at my age !!

For all those of a hopeful, positive nature who keep telling us it'll all be fine, give it time etc, can you please provide me with a single piece of evidence to back up your claims and I will be more than happy to consider it?

TB and MM between them have the managerial pedigree of Mike Basset. From Coventry, Sunderland, Brentrford, Sydney, Swindon, Motherwell (MM not TB) their records are shocking and provide me with no comfort for the battle ahead. Vigurs and Wood gone! Conference players as replacements on much higher wages! Pavels to RB and Tokes to CB at a crucial time of the season! Lionel not Dick! All decisions taken by our managerial team alone. Why?

Will keep repeating myself until someone can gove me any crumb of comfort. It's an age thing.

Spot on my son!!

Sorry guys and girls BLip on the computer

Edited August 31, 2009 by latviaman

[latviaman]

I totally agree he should have kept Vigars and Wood who as far as I am aware didn't even want to leave. I don't think Foran is comfortable as centre forward as he would be far more effective working just behind the frontline. Does anybody think Lionel could be moved into midfield instead of full back where he can't do so much damage?

I agree with all of that.... and yes, Lionel played in midfield, or even up front, wouldn't do so much damage. He'd also be more likely to score than the likes of Rooney or Barrowman.

I love the guy.

Well sober up , he is a disaster which happens on a regular basis, he would not make a second div French side on a good day!!!!

[PullMyFinger]

Lionel is a bit like having Scooby Doo as a guard dog. You know it's all going to go horribly wrong can't stop yourself laughing.

I'm with Sorted on this one 100%.

TB's pedigree aint too good, he had 2 top 6 finishes at Motherwell but has finished bottom of the SPL twice, around the relegation zone with Coventry and Sunderland and 5 wins from 23 at Brentford.

Terry Butcher thinks he is bigger than ICT, get him tae ****. Why didn't the board swallow their pride and appoint JR when they had the chance?

[Scarlet Pimple]

Well now 5th stand what is it about Terry Butcher that makes you state so emphatically that he thinks he is bigger than ICT? I mean if that is just your opinion that's fine -- but now back it up with facts.

I think that remark is complete nonsense. And it is so ridiculous that I will not elaborate because getting through to you why would be a painful process.

The only problem I do currently see with Terry B. is that he is currently trying to serve two masters and the sooner he decides which one he wants to follow in a singular fashion the better for the club.

In order to fully address the malaise at Tulloch Caledonian Jock MacDonald stadium he must urgently focus all of his attention on the club.

[PullMyFinger]

You have asked and answered the question yourself.

He is of the opinion he can cut himself in two and still do his best for both ICT and Scotland. If what I witnessed on Saturday is indeed his best I fear for the clubs future.