Against All Odds

[BornCaley]

Hey all.

just wondered if there is anybody looking to sell their copy of Mr Bannermans Agains All Odds book?

Cant seem to get it anywhere

Let us know or PM me

thanks

[SMEE]

I have been trying to track down a copy of Rod Clyne's In a Different League. My dad used to have it, and i have got it into my head that Caley in the HL days, back in the 50s and 60s used to get a bigger attendance than ICT do in the SPL. IM sure there are quite a lot of mentions of times when Caley would get 6000-7000 against the likes of Lossiemouth etc and against Clach, even more. Id be curious to see if i recall correctly. Must be 20 yrs since i last saw the book.

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

I have been trying to track down a copy of Rod Clyne's In a Different League. My dad used to have it, and i have got it into my head that Caley in the HL days, back in the 50s and 60s used to get a bigger attendance than ICT do in the SPL. IM sure there are quite a lot of mentions of times when Caley would get 6000-7000 against the likes of Lossiemouth etc and against Clach, even more. Id be curious to see if i recall correctly. Must be 20 yrs since i last saw the book.

Caley got crowds in excess of 5000 for every Saturday home game in the late 50's , have a look at the books on old Inverness for photos and you wont see many wifies at the games like you do nowadays

[FoolPhysio]

I don't think that is a fair comment DC. The 1950's were a very different time to the one we currently live in, which is one explanation for the reduction in attendances - TVs, internet, increased social mobility, the expansion of working hours (especially in retail) to move towards a 24 hour economy, the vast number of leisure pursuits available compared to even 30 years ago, let alone 60.

And surely a fan is a fan? Do we not need to encourage more to attend games, rather than marginalise one half of the population? Or was the comment tongue-in-cheek without the smiley being added . . .?

[old caley girl]

Actually my granda was chairman of caley in the 50's and my gran mum and aunt regularly attended games. Footie nowadays has become much more of a family day out but I personally have attended games since 1975.

Smee did have copy of In a different league. Not sure where it is. Will have a rake in the loft for you.

Edited January 7, 2011 by old caley girl

[Scotty]

People ... this is not a discussion thread ... this is a for sale or wanted thread .... if you want to discuss this, do it on the main board and stop hijacking BornCaley's thread.

[old caley girl]

People ... this is not a discussion thread ... this is a for sale or wanted thread .... if you want to discuss this, do it on the main board and stop hijacking BornCaley's thread.

Sorry!

[PullMyFinger]

I have been given a copy of a book by Rodwell Clyne called something like Northern Football (I am at work and cannot remember the actual title). It looks like a pretty old book as it talks of people like Ginger MacKenzie. Just wondering if anyone has read it or not or have an opinion on it before I start reading it!

There you go Smee, let the bidding begin. :biggrin:

[robbylad]

Hey all.

just wondered if there is anybody looking to sell their copy of Mr Bannermans Agains All Odds book?

Cant seem to get it anywhere

Let us know or PM me

thanks

i've been searching for the book too....... blooming hard to find!!!!

theres a couple of copies on amazon at moment but a bit pricey for me. amazingly, one copy is in new york. world famous ict!!!!

[Scotty]

there's a signed copy in Toronto too, but its not for sale !

[Charles Bannerman]

there's a signed copy in Toronto too, but its not for sale !

With writing like mine, I always thought that people who wanted signed copies should have got a reduced price!

Born Caley PMd me to enquire about copies just before he started this thread back in January and I unfortunately had to tell him that the book had been sold out for some time. We did 2000 copies and the last few steadily went from the club shop a few years ago. As it happens we should maybe have gone for 2500 but that's all very well to say with hindsight and it would have cost more with no guarantee of selling them.

For a number of reasons a reprint is out of the question - not the least because there will be no trace of the discs the original is on since both HiScan who did the DTP and Highland Printers who printed it have been out of business for several years. In any case it wouldn't be financially viable now.

On a "what if" basis, if a reprint did happen, I would want to add to the text since it's always been a matter of regret that I didn't say a little more by introduction about the Highland League pre 1988 and the two clubs' history in it.

I think, with hindsight, I was too reluctant to interrupt the carefully argued narrative of the first chapter which begins with Thistle and Caley winning what turned out to be their last major honours at each other's grounds in 1988 through to the start of merger negotiations in 1993. The argument is that during these five years the situation went from a merger being totally inconceivable to a scenario which was possibly unprecedentedly conducive to one, which has fascinated me since day 1.

But I do now regret not having said more about the Highland League.

OK I've gone slightly so to return to availability of Against All Odds, the best chance is to beg, borrow, steal or try Amazon or Ebay.... unless someone wants to scan each page and republish the book on this site - in which case I would undertake to add some words about the Highland League days!

[Scotty]

If someone was willing to scan it we could certainly make it available as a PDF download, given that the author has given permission and the others involved went out of business !! I also have access to Adobe Writer so if Charles wanted to add a comment or two after scanning of the original then that too could be combined with the original document

[Charles Bannerman]

If someone was willing to scan it we could certainly make it available as a PDF download, given that the author has given permission and the others involved went out of business !! I also have access to Adobe Writer so if Charles wanted to add a comment or two after scanning of the original then that too could be combined with the original document

Scotty... now there's an idea!!

I don't know how big a scanning job this is since I don't know the technology, but there would be just over 140 pages plus whatever I added on the HL. Little by little perhaps? Someone scans while I research and write what I could take a ballpark guess at being a further 5ish? pages.

I have a Thistle booklet of my own and I'm sure I could borrow a copy of Caley All The Way from someone.

In terms of permissions, the Author hereby willingly gives his on the spot! I own the copyright jointly with the Club while Ken MacPherson, Trevor Martin and Gordon Gillespie have the photo copyrights. I'm sure all would be agreeable and I am happy to approach the photographers and George Fraser myself.

I would be absolutely delighted for a slightly enhanced Against All Odds to be relaunched on CTO and already I think that the only major problem would be getting the scanning done. I do have a VERY small number of author's copies which I hold on behalf of the club for emergency purposes and I would be more than happy for one of these to be cannibalised which I imagine might make the scanning easier.

[Scotty]

Think this may be a possibility then Charles

In my opinion any Caley/Thistle/ICT books should be available in an electronic format for download, and by that I dont necessarily mean for free ... some might be free, but others, perhaps those still in print should cost something, even if it is only a charity donation or something like that ......

We could certainly help produce the PDF document, and at worst, a copy sent to me at my mailing address which I can unbind and put in a printer that can scan to PDF, would get it done quite quickly (Might Les K have one of these?). However, now we have the idea, I am sure that between us all here we might be able to get it done somehow.

[Charles Bannerman]

Might Les K have one of these?

Les K last seen IN SHORTS (I am exclusively... well not quite!.. told)at tonight's Simple Minds concert which I hear was wet but busy. Les might be free to speak to me next week now concert is over.

[BornCaley]

If someone was willing to scan it we could certainly make it available as a PDF download, given that the author has given permission and the others involved went out of business !! I also have access to Adobe Writer so if Charles wanted to add a comment or two after scanning of the original then that too could be combined with the original document

Scotty... now there's an idea!!

I don't know how big a scanning job this is since I don't know the technology, but there would be just over 140 pages plus whatever I added on the HL. Little by little perhaps? Someone scans while I research and write what I could take a ballpark guess at being a further 5ish? pages.

I have a Thistle booklet of my own and I'm sure I could borrow a copy of Caley All The Way from someone.

In terms of permissions, the Author hereby willingly gives his on the spot! I own the copyright jointly with the Club while Ken MacPherson, Trevor Martin and Gordon Gillespie have the photo copyrights. I'm sure all would be agreeable and I am happy to approach the photographers and George Fraser myself.

I would be absolutely delighted for a slightly enhanced Against All Odds to be relaunched on CTO and already I think that the only major problem would be getting the scanning done. I do have a VERY small number of author's copies which I hold on behalf of the club for emergency purposes and I would be more than happy for one of these to be cannibalised which I imagine might make the scanning easier.

Charles! i own a copy of Caley All the Way, so would be happy to loan it

on a side note I'm liking the scanning ideas.

[Scotty]

TO SUMMARISE

So in terms of "Caley", "Thistle" or "Caley Thistle" books we have

1. Caley All the Way [Alex Main]

2. Against All Odds (+ the Thistle 'booklet' mentioned) [Charles Bannerman]

3. Going Ballistic [ian Broadfoot]

are there any others ?

I think I am correct in saying 1 & 2 are 'out of print' ? If so, then we would be happy to host downloads should they be made available in scanned form and the relevant permissions are in place. We are also happy to help create the PDFs if required.

For #3, I think this is still available from the club so not out of print. We would also be happy to host a PDF copy of this title once it does go out of print (or sooner if deemed acceptable) subject to the permissions of Ian Broadfoot, the Club and anyone else (photographers etc) who permissions need to be obtained from.

Subject to any terms from the author(s) and/or the club, we are happy to make these downloads available for free, or to charge a nominal sum that would go to somewhere worthwhile (not to our own pockets, I hasten to add). If a more formal arrangement is required, I am sure we could also liaise with the club to somehow make it available on the online club shop site. CaleyD will correct me if I am wrong but I do believe the software used for that enterprise allows electronic download so its not a huge undertaking.

IMHO all of these books form an invaluable history of Caley, Thistle, and of Caley Thistle and it would be a shame to see them lost, or only turning up every so often in antique book stores or on ebay. If we can help preserve these titles so that new fans or younger fans can really know the history of their club and the clubs that preceded them written by guys who were there at the time, it can only be a good thing !

[caleyboy]

It's not that many years ago that all the kids attending the old "Hotshots" coaching events were getting a free copy of "Against All Odds". Changed days, now they are so scarce they are more like the "Builders Investment".

[Charles Bannerman]

[so in terms of "Caley", "Thistle" or "Caley Thistle" books we have

1. Caley All the Way [Alex Main]

2. Against All Odds (+ the Thistle 'booklet' mentioned) [Charles Bannerman]

3. Going Ballistic [ian Broadfoot]

The Thistle booklet (I am not the author but do have a copy) is entitled "The Hub of the Hill" and was published in 1985 to mark the Jags' centenary.

I think I have also organised access to Caley All The Way for further research from Jim Falconer, but thanks Born Caley for your offer.

As caleyboy said - on one occasion they did dish out copies of Against All Odds to Hotshots which made me cringe at the time since not only was that costing the club ?9.99 per copy in lost revenue, it also contributed to the unavailability of copies which has now been a problem for a few years but which at least we can rectify now.

I already have most of the permissions I need and am about to make a start on the extra chapter which will not appear overnight but when it does I will be in touch with Pull My Finger to get the scanning done. Then it's over to Scotty who has already worked out how to put it on the site.

[BornCaley]

Im so glad my little plea has turned into something really positive that we can all share so many thanks guys. Really looking forward to reading AAO + extra chapter.

I dont want to get ahead of myself but perhaps CTO could create some sort of history section with some PDFs of classic programmes or fanzines. But as i said im probaly getting ahead of myself

[Scotty]

Im so glad my little plea has turned into something really positive that we can all share so many thanks guys. Really looking forward to reading AAO + extra chapter.

I dont want to get ahead of myself but perhaps CTO could create some sort of history section with some PDFs of classic programmes or fanzines. But as i said im probaly getting ahead of myself

The biggest hassle that would probably be faced is the multiple copyright and permissions issues. We would probably be ok in terms of club content and possibly local photographer content but some of the classic matches have occured at away grounds and you then start dealing with other clubs, other photographers, bigger agencies like Getty Images or SNS etc and without knowing for sure, the SFL, SPL and SFA might also want a say ... it starts to become a minefield in the same way as it was for those trying to put together the first video of the Feb8 game (for example) and then the 10 yr anniversary edition.

I wouldnt rule it out, and think its actually a good idea, but just being realistic about the hurdles. AAO is an easier task as the author is onside and for the most part I think its local photographers and the club who make up the rest of the list of people that need to give it a green light.

[CaleyD]

If a more formal arrangement is required, I am sure we could also liaise with the club to somehow make it available on the online club shop site. CaleyD will correct me if I am wrong but I do believe the software used for that enterprise allows electronic download so its not a huge undertaking.

It does indeed, and very straight forward to set up.

[CaleyD]

Im so glad my little plea has turned into something really positive that we can all share so many thanks guys. Really looking forward to reading AAO + extra chapter.

I dont want to get ahead of myself but perhaps CTO could create some sort of history section with some PDFs of classic programmes or fanzines. But as i said im probaly getting ahead of myself

The biggest hassle that would probably be faced is the multiple copyright and permissions issues. We would probably be ok in terms of club content and possibly local photographer content but some of the classic matches have occured at away grounds and you then start dealing with other clubs, other photographers, bigger agencies like Getty Images or SNS etc and without knowing for sure, the SFL, SPL and SFA might also want a say ... it starts to become a minefield in the same way as it was for those trying to put together the first video of the Feb8 game (for example) and then the 10 yr anniversary edition.

I wouldnt rule it out, and think its actually a good idea, but just being realistic about the hurdles. AAO is an easier task as the author is onside and for the most part I think its local photographers and the club who make up the rest of the list of people that need to give it a green light.

Having had some involvement in the production of the Feb8th2000 DVD it can be a bit of a nightmare trying to sort all these things out. Just finding out who actually owns the rights to something can be a major hassle in itself.

For the DVD alone we had to find out who owned the rights to the game, then we had to find out who owned the footage. Once you do that, you then need permission from the rights owner (which can carry a fee) and then buy the footage separately. We then needed to get permission to use the headline "SuperCaleyGoBallistic"..and finally we had to track down the owner of the rights to the image used on the cover, agree use of it and then lay our hands on a useable copy.

Admittedly, had we not been embarking on a commercial venture then the costs incurred would have been a lot less (possibly free)...but when you get in to reproducing programmes and the like, just tracking down rights owners etc would be an almost insurmountable task and you can't afford to assume that anyone wouldn't mind because if they came back after the fact and you didn't have permission you could get hit with a fee/charge for all distributed copies.

That's not to say that nothing can be done. It's not beyond the realms of reasonable possibility that we could get our hands on..and permission to use..individual photos and/or articles that have a specific historical interest/value from local guys and or the press....we'd just need people willing to put the time in to making it happen.

[BornCaley]

thanks Don! I totally understand the nightmare associated with rights and permissions for images and copyrights!, so its not something i would expect to see overnight!

As for people willing to help! Well im Edinburgh based but im open to help with researching stuff if its something the site wants to do, so PM me if i can be of help!

BC