Scottish Cup reforms

[Yngwie]

Changes implemented for the coming season :

- all 36 teams that current take part in the Qualifying Cups will go straight into the first round

- 4 Junior teams will also go into the first round

- Semi-finals to be decided on the day, no replays.

Very refreshing changes from the SFA. A great opportunity for the non-league teams, and some welcome variety for everyone else.

And good news for shinguard manufacturers?

[+Gringo]

I'm sure Wick would be delighted with a trip to Stranraer... :001:

Sounds like a good move by the SFA, in theory, and a good opportunity for the wee teams to progress further in the comp'. I take it that's the end of the Qualifying Cup as we know it.

[Scotty]

cant see it being too different in format - just means first round (or will they call it preliminary) will have as many byes as it has games (20 of each) if it includes the 40 non-league clubs and 20 division 2 and 3 sides.

however - well done on the SFA for at least letting the non league sides have a crack - who knows, we could have a few upsets and some interest.

If i have my sums right, this would be the format.

rd P = 40 + 20 = 60 teams. 20 games, 20 byes to get down to 40 teams

rd 1 = 40 teams = 20 games to get to last 20 teams

rd 2 = 20 teams = 10 games to get to last 10 teams

rd 3 = 16 games as the 22 SPL & div1 teams join the remaining 10 teams from rds 1&2

rd 4 = 8 games

Rd qf = 4 games

Rd sf = 2 games

Rd F = 1 game

[CaleyD]

A move in the right direction but they should do away with the seeding altogether - only then will you have a "true" Scottish Cup.  It would also give the smaller teams a chance at big paydays and help spread the money to lower levels of the game.

It'll never happen, purely because the SPL and Div 1 teams wouldn't want to add to the risk of losing out on the (potential) cup income which many of them rely on.

[The Fly]

cant see it being too different in format - just means first round (or will they call it preliminary) will have as many byes as it has games (20 of each) if it includes the 40 non-league clubs and 20 division 2 and 3 sides.

The format's going to be a bit more complicated so that byes are avoided - entry of clubs from each division/league staggered to give some reward for clubs finishing at the top of lower divisions:

Round 1 - 36 clubs enter:

14 clubs who formerly participated in the Qualifying Cup North (excluding top two in Highland League from previous season)

18 clubs who formerly participated in the Qualifying Cup South (excluding East of Scotland League and South of Scotland League champions from previous season)

4 Scottish Junior FA clubs - winners of the North/West/East Super Leagues and the Scottish Junior Cup

Round 2 - 18 winners + 14 clubs enter:

Top two in Highland League from previous season

East of Scotland League champions from previous season

South of Scotland League champions from previous season

Ten SFL third division clubs

Round 3 - 16 winners + 16 clubs enter:

Ten SFL Second Division clubs

Six SFL First Division clubs (those finishing in bottom six positions previous season)

Round 4 - 16 winners + 16 clubs enter:

Four SFL First Division clubs (those finishing in top four positions previous season)

12 SPL clubs

and from then on it's a simple knockout for three more rounds to get to the final.

Overall it sounds like a Good Thing, although I suspect an explanation of the rather complicated entry stages for the different clubs will have to be printed on a little card for reporters, managers, fans and others to carry around for reference!

I guess you couldn't bring the top clubs in at an earlier stage because of the potential fixture pile ups after Christmas for those clubs still in the League Cup and Europe (whoops  )

I think this setup gives the smaller teams a pretty good chance to progress though, and more opportunity for 'giant killing'. Presumably the actual draws won't be seeded, so you can end up with any team drawn against any team in any round?

[CaleyD]

Can you say that again...just a little slower this time 

Complicated set-up but as you say, increases the opportunity for the smaller teams to get matches against "bigger" opposition.

I'd sell my soul to see one of the OF go out to a Junior team.

[chris123]

The SFA wouldn't allow it

[Kingsmills]

A step in the right direction. Personally, I would like to see each and every team in the competition from round one with no seeding.

[Scotty]

fair play to the SFA - the format was stale and eventually they realised this and changed it. Definitely a step in the right direction.

Harking back to pre ICT days, the Scottish Cup was always something to look forward to and the new format will hopefully generate a little excitement and some cash for the smaller teams. Even though the format that the Fly posted seems complicated, when you re-read it a couple of times it starts to make perfect sense .... non-league and lower league teams have a chance to progress (and make more money) based on the tiered nature of the draw and byes look to be completely eliminated.

I like it. two thumbs up to the SFA (for once).  :021:

[The Fly]

I'd sell my soul to see one of the OF go out to a Junior team.

Will you take a post-dated cheque for £1.5m drawn on the Bank of Zambia?  :023:

The SFA wouldn't allow it

No doubt you'd get excuses like these from Rangers and Clyde clicky clicky  :001:

[Scotty]

The Clyde one is a beauty  :015: :015: ... complaining about their own pitch !!! class.

It just goes to show though, when it comes to complaining and trying to circumvent or overturn the rules in Scottish football the more things change, the more they stay the same ....

[Charles Bannerman]

I think this setup gives the smaller teams a pretty good chance to progress though, and more opportunity for 'giant killing'. Presumably the actual draws won't be seeded, so you can end up with any team drawn against any team in any round?

[Charles Bannerman]

Sorry I've had to continue my post here because I couldn't somehow extricate the quote I was using from what I wanted to say myself which was......

Interestingly enough David Dowling (who's been very much in the picture on this one as an SFA Council member as well as chairman of Clach) is taking a different view here and is suggesting that it could be MORE difficult eg for a Highland League club to get a tie with an SPL club.

His argument is that the SPL clubs now don't come in until the fourth rather than the third round as before. Also, apart from the top two in the HL, there's no chance now of a 1st round bye for an HL club and there's the possible additional barrier of having to dispose of a 1st Division team in round 3 before moving on to an SPL draw in round 4.

(And I don't think I'm betraying "off the record" confidences if I reveal that one of David's "dream" scenarios would be County at Grant Street in Round 3 followed by ICT there in Round 4!)

[Scotty]

I can see the point Charles, but in the current scenario they have to qualify first ( through several rounds) and that isnt always an easy task, then they might get a bye in the first round proper - or not - and face anyone from div 3 or 2 in the second round before the big guns come in  at round 3 ... in theory I would suggest that this new route might be easier ...

1st round - playing reasonably equal opponents

2nd round could play equal opponents or a senior (Div3) side - which some would argue could be equal opponents

3rd round could still play equal opponents or a tougher opponent from Div2 or 1

4th round - anything goes !!!

I can see many "shocks" in the 1st and 2nd rounds as some of the better non league sides put some of the stale perpetual bottom feeders to the sword but what seems quite good to me is that you know going into it (as a non league side) that you need to raise your game after every round as it will truly get more difficult.

[The Fly]

I understand where David Dowling's coming from, and I think perhaps an individual non-league club might find it more difficult to get a premier tie. Given the way the draw is set up though I still think non-League clubs overall have got a better chance of facing a 'big' side (i.e. top of 1st Div or SPL).

Expanding on what Scotty says, Round 2 will consist of 22 non-league and 10 3rd Division clubs. Even in the unlikely event of the (random) balls coming out of the draw so that every 3rd Div club got a tie against a non-league club, and went on to beat them, that would still leave 6 non-league clubs in the draw for Round 3. In all probability some of the 3rd Div clubs will be drawn against other 3rd Div clubs, and some non-league clubs should expect to be able to beat lower 3rd div clubs (East Stirling, Elgin anyone...).

Assume that 10 non-league clubs make it through to Round 3, you'd again expect some of the 2nd Div clubs to be drawn against other 2nd Div or against 3rd Div clubs. Hopefully at least a couple of non-league clubs will be able to beat their 2nd or 3rd Div opponents, justifying the expansion of the competition and their automatic inclusion.

I'll stick my neck out and say that at least three non-league clubs will make it through to the Round 4 draw including the top 1st Div and SPL clubs, which I think will be an improvement on the previous position and make it a more interesting competition overall. Hopefully TV will be more interested in some of these games, fans should be more interested, and sponsorship monies increase.

I've only been to one Scottish Cup game in the last few seasons, partly because of fatigue at seeing us playing the same old sides - now we're in the SPL a draw against of of our bottom six foes at SPL really doesn't get me fired up. Strangely, I would much rather have a good old-style day out on the terracing. I would be happy to see all sides in Round 1, but I don't think it will happen for the various reasons mentioned above.

A question though: why did Golspie Sutherland (but none of the other 'non-non-league' sides) compete in the Qualifying Cup North (and presumably will go into the Round 1 draw next season)  ???

[The Mantis]

It's a historical thing- if you're an associate member (or whatever) of the SFA from long ago, you're in the cup.

If you're not, you have to fulfil all sorts of criteria such as enclosed ground etc. to get in.

[Charles Bannerman]

I think it's got to do with full membership of the SFA. Before 1985, both Golspie and Fort William used to play in the Qualifying Cup for that reason, even though they weren't Highland League teams. Then The Fort got into the Highland League, leaving Golspie as the only "outsider" in the Q Cup.

This, along with subsequent changes as a result of the election of Cove to the HL and then Thistle/ Caley, County, Elgin and Peterhead getting into the SFL, led to the number of Q Cup 1st round ties going from 1 up to 3 then down to none at the moment when there are the 15 HL teams plus Golspie to give the even 16 (and a new first round where the second used to be.

Back in the old days I used to like to introduce the now defunct Qualifying Cup 1st round as "nine games from Hampden... ulness you draw Queens Park away."

Fort William often used to pose a problem here when the first round was on the first Saturday in September and Claggan Park was booked for the Ben Nevis Race. (Former Jaggies will have fond memories of a visit to Claggan in the Qualifying Cup, quite soon after their famous trip to Celtic Park in 1985!)