Flags of Inconvenience

[Guest birdog]

This story opens up a lot of topics for discussion but the one I am mainly interested in is the ability of the club to censor supporters. As stated in the story ICT have a policy of removing flags and banners which may be considered offensive. One man's offence is another man's stance. Does this now make it an ejectable offence to display a "Brewster Out" banner? Will the club take action against Celtic supporters flying the tricolour, a symbol of Irish resistance against our home country? or Rangers fans flying the Union Flag, a symbol of 400 years of Westminster oppression? Like the story says this has opened up a whole new can of worms.

Don't think the football part of the forum is the place to be arguing the politics behind the flag (there's a thread on Anything Goes, Serious Topics for that). The discussion here is about whether or not the club have the right, or should be intervening with people who bring a flag in to the game.

It's not about what the flag stands for, or is deemed to stand for, it's about a persons right to Freedom of Expression (within the confines of the law).

Thanks Don, for bringing this back on topic.

Edited January 16, 2009 by birdog

[Proctor]

Don't think the football part of the forum is the place to be arguing the politics behind the flag (there's a thread on Anything Goes, Serious Topics for that). The discussion here is about whether or not the club have the right, or should be intervening with people who bring a flag in to the game.

It's not about what the flag stands for, or is deemed to stand for, it's about a persons right to Freedom of Expression (within the confines of the law).

Also, where do you draw the line on offensive? Should ICT Flags and Scarves be banned because they might offend/antagonise the opposition?

For those who say the club were in the right simply because they do not agree with the person involved, I'd say you better be careful for what you wish for. You never know the day when you may feel so strongly about something that you want to wave a flag or banner and if you're told you can't because someone else dislikes it, then you nobody to blame but yourself.

As I said in my posts, although the flag IN QUESTION offends me and I do not agree that a football game is a place to air your political opinions unless they are related to the club. I wouldn't go as far as to stop anyone. I was asked two questions by Stan, what I found offensive about the flag and why I think football and politics whould be seperated.

I think this is a case of tolerance. You may not like someones opinion but nobody should have the right to stop people saying what they belive in. I think the main question is why corrupt what is essentially a form of entertainment and escapism with issues that have nothing to do with the proceedings. For example I may go to a football match and boo an opposition player for a dirty tackle or a referee for making a bad decision. That form of protest is logical in the context but would I go to a match, completly ignore the match I PAID TO SEE and sing about Robert Mugabe? I don't think so. I know that these issues are a more life and death situation than a game of football but people go to games to get away from these things, al be it for 90 minutes, although iwe should all have the right to protest where we want. It should be in the discretion of those protesting to decide where and when.

[weeStie]

You're quite correct, Don, this forum is not the place to discuss politics but Proctor was simply replying to a challenge laid down. Likewise, the football ground is not the place for political protest.

BTW, I have just seen Mr Martin's photo in the Courier and see a remarkable resemblance to my own hirsute phizog. Please note everyone, he is not me and I am not him!

[Council Juice]

In my opinion it is wrong for people to side with EITHER side of the conflict as it is exceedingly complex and both sides have blood on their hands., although Israel have not exactly kept a clean sheet in terms of minimum damage to the unfortunate people caught up in this conflict and I think their recent action which resulted in the obliteration of aid in the GAZA region is utterly despicable. I still feel they are just retaliating after years of similar treatment.

In the same way its wrong with people to take opinion with anything then? We dont know ALL the facts about whats happening on the ICT board but most say something has to be done.

I think its everyones right to have an opinion. Is that not why we fought the Nazis? For freedom of thought and the right to speak?

To me it seems there is a deep routed undertone of anti Semitism in some of the protests I have witnessed. I saw protests on television where right next to people with Palestinian flags, there were people with banners featuring the Star of David and a swastika; showing a complete lack of knowledge in terms of history and the current conflict.

I think this had less to do with naivity and more to do with how comparable the Israeli attacks on civilians is not too disimilar to the Nazi's treatment of many civilians, innocent or otherwise. Which is a little more than ironic seeing as Israel was formed as a result of the war. Just because Hamas terrorists bomb Israel does not give the Israeli authorities right to bomb civilian areas. End of.

Anyway i think if it is not illegal to display a flag then who are the club to ban it's display? Maybe a football ground is not the place to air political views (tell that to the OF) Maybe on the other hand its a perfect place to display your political beliefs. Its a well publicised sporting event with TV cameras. Where better some would think.

Put it this way if i was to bring a Jolly Roger skull n Crossbones flag to the ground and display it, for whatever reason, is it likely i'd be asked to take it done? I dont think so to be honest, yet its probably illegal to do so. You know piracy n all that jazz.

[Kirishima]

Its an easy one.

1) the flag should never have been there in the first place. Im pretty bemused about the guy who did. At best it is insensitive, provocative and irrelevant to the situation as a whole.

2) the club was put into a difficult position because of the above person. If they do nothing it could still be seen as "action" through inaction.

3) I think the consensus would agree that while freedom of speech is the key, it must be relevant to the situation. Palestine flag at ICT game has no relevance, therefore I am of the opinion that the club/steward was right.

This is not comparable to any flags that are ICT related, CaleyD had every right as it was related to ICT.

If you want to support freedom fighters and rail against tyranny, off to Gaza with you, ICT is for football and football only.

[Renegade]

Whilst I agree in freedom of speech and all that, I personally wouldn't take my Palestine flag (if I owned one of course) to an ICT game. Why? Becasue it isn't relevant and that goes with the flag of Israel. Though, here's the thing. On occaison Rangers fans have been seen to display the Israeli flags at games and Celtic Palestine. Was anything done about? I don't think so. IIRC there was a Palestine flag being held up in the away end in the ICT v Celtic in 2002 which ICT won 1-0, so this aint anything new. The taking away of Tricolours and Union flags (should this happen, which I don't think it will) could also possibly incite a riot, so this might not be the best idea if the club says it will cut down on "political" flags (probably another lie). And here's another thing, would I, as a poster on CaleyThistleOnline be allowed to display the flag of Israel or the flag of Israel as an avatar. I'm not sure about that.

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

Fact of the matter is the bloke is an ICT fan and had just come from a protest in support of Palestine , its not as though he takes his flag to every game ( hes not missed a home game in 8 seasons ) and displays it in a provocative manner FFS .Do you think Kim the guy with the jewellery stall in town should be banned from flying the Israeli flag ?

Edited January 17, 2009 by DALNEIGHCALEY

[Renegade]

That's a very good point about the jewellery guy, would someone like that be allowed to fly a Palestine flag though? I'm not sure about that either.

[Mee]

John Martin's one of the most intelligent and provocative guys you're likely to meet! If he's been asked to remove a national flag then I would expect EVERYONE who takes a national flag to a game to be made to remove them. This is such an obvious example of the club 's BULLYING mentality towards the fans, wonder if Mr Smith was Safety Officer that day?

Personally I find it totally offensive that a Union Flag is flown anywhere in Scotland, and as such I now expect the stewards to remove every single one from the next match with Rangers

[Dmacca]

Also, where do you draw the line on offensive? Should ICT Flags and Scarves be banned because they might offend/antagonise the opposition?

Sat here reading this thread I was beginning to think down these lines, how long before we can't wear our teams shirt in the ground, its bound to be offending the opposition supporters!!!

Are we all jumping on the PC bandwagon here again, I wonder sometimes if we all get a little to offended very easily now adays.

[Mee]

Oh, and fortunately for him, he looks nothing like you Weestie

[gordyfromsneck]

Given the flag to me symbolises something offensive I would take offence to its display. Besides football should be about escapisum and we should leave politics at the turnstyle unless directly linked with the club.

Proctor, are you willing to be the first person on this thread to explain what is offensive about a Palestinian flag?

As for football being about escapism and politics being left at the turnstyle - who are you to decide those things?

By the way, EVERYTHING is political.

Proctor is right about the conflict, though the Western establishment chooses to side with Israel to a greater degree. Such is our built in fear and distrust of Islam.

John has a long standing history of radical protest and, by golly, he chose the right place to get column inches. Right or wrong, he shows that we, the people, care about the people of Gaza and as such has served his purpose.

If the OF didnt have such a vested interest in keeping alive the conflicts over Irish sovereignty, all thise flags would have been burned a long time ago and the neanderthals waving them, expelled for ever. As it stands, rules or no rules, our chicken **** stewarding policy is complicit in maintaining that divide.

[Tichy_Blacks_Back]

Personally I find it totally offensive that a Union Flag is flown anywhere in Scotland - not the greatest lover of the said flag or more how it has been used by certain elments but it is the British Flag and can't say I have ever felt offended when I have seen it flying in Scotland.

Do really agree though that the issue is not the colours on the flag but the way the enforcers of order within the ground are consistent with their actions....as with others I do look forward to the actions of the stewards when Celtic come to town on the 1st February as I am sure that at least one person within the ground will probbaly now complain that they believe the flying of the tri-colour is offensive. May be very interesting....

[MrsICTFC]

Sorry for being thick but a few people have posted up about how the flag isn't relevant for the match. Well in that case what really is the big deal,it's only a big deal because people have made it a big deal? Ok yes there is all the politics behind it and so forth but if people just watched the game and forgot about it?

[Ronaldo]

Wonder what the case would have been if the flag happened to be ICT colours?

[Council Juice]

The taking away of Tricolours and Union flags (should this happen, which I don't think it will) could also possibly incite a riot, so this might not be the best idea if the club says it will cut down on "political" flags (probably another lie). And here's another thing, would I, as a poster on CaleyThistleOnline be allowed to display the flag of Israel or the flag of Israel as an avatar. I'm not sure about that.

It would be easy enough to inform fans of the OF beforehand and take them of them in the turnstiles. The few that would make it through could then be isolated. No one wants to upset their biggest gate reciept of the season - thats the real problem. I also don't really see why, on technically an unofficial site, you would be stopped from displaying any flag providing you didnt have any inflammatory slogans with it.

Given the flag to me symbolises something offensive I would take offence to its display. Besides football should be about escapisum and we should leave politics at the turnstyle unless directly linked with the club.

Proctor, are you willing to be the first person on this thread to explain what is offensive about a Palestinian flag?

As for football being about escapism and politics being left at the turnstyle - who are you to decide those things?

By the way, EVERYTHING is political.

That reminds me of a TV ad when one guy says to the other "I don't believe in politics" His friend then refuses to speak to him about anything after that.

Fact remains is people in this country get all high and mighty about a few flags and songs. Personally i think we have it pretty cushty. Its a doddle. This rage culture we live in is somewhat irritating at times.

Also would i be stopped waving a Jolly Roger flag? Due to it's links with criminal piracy.

Edited January 17, 2009 by iamthecaptain1

[Guest birdog]

Also would i be stopped waving a Jolly Roger flag? Due to it's links with criminal piracy.

Not by an agent of the law, the "Jolly Roger" took many forms the most predominant was a plain black flag. Only 4 or 5 pirates from the days of wooden ships and iron men flew the skull and crossbones. The "Jolly Roger" was more of a "house flag" (a flag flown by a shipping company to signify who the owners are) with the captain's own design on it (click here) and used to invite surrender. I have seen many yachts and fishing boats fly the Jolly Roger for a bit of fun in various ports around the world.

[Council Juice]

Thanks. Obviously any laws against such would have been relaxed should they exist. Though Piracy in this country along with treason was one of the last to have the punishment of death by a good 'anging removed as recently as when Jack Straw was foreign minister.

[Scotty]

wonder if Mr Smith was Safety Officer that day?

Mr Smith is on holiday I believe so dont think it can be laid at his door .... someone other than Mike normally acts as safety officer now although he does take charge if the other person is unavailable.

[Mee]

wonder if Mr Smith was Safety Officer that day?

Mr Smith is on holiday I believe so dont think it can be laid at his door .... someone other than Mike normally acts as safety officer now although he does take charge if the other person is unavailable.

Cheers Scotty He's obviously taught them well :thumb04:

[CABM]

How in anyway can a national flag from a country which is recognized to be a sovereign state by 103 other countries offensive. Sure maybe there are extremists but lets get real there are very few countries that don't have a history of violence and oppression. Just because we have become accustomed to the Celtic/Rangers flags doesn't make there usage right. Both countries in this current conflict are at fault but ICT are well out of order if a man can no longer express himself or his/her heritage. Obviously offensive slogans or language is unacceptable (I think the 'get tae F***' posters are unnecessary)

[Flower]

The Royal Navy submarines fly the Jolly Roger after successful missions. :thumb04:

[Scotty]

As easy or tempting as it can be to veer away from topic on this thread, as stated earlier can we try to stay vaguely on topic - Thanks.

If you want to have this discussion in more depth about the subject of flags in general? or Palestine/Israel etc - start a new topic in the serious debate area. This topic is about a specific incident/scenario at the TCS.

[Caley Stan]

Proctor, fair play to you for explaining your position. You have given clear reasons for taking offence to the flag and for leaving politics out of football and i respect that.

However, one thing remains unanswered. What gives you, or the officials who asked for the flag to be removed, the right to determine how and where people express themselves?

A lot of people are offended by some pretty weird thing, Renegade's bizarre rant about fat people wearing football tops being a recent example, and if all those people's wishes were to be accomodated then we would soon find that we are unable to express ouselves at all.

[Guest birdog]

What gives you, or the officials who asked for the flag to be removed, the right to determine how and where people express themselves?

this link should provide some answers.