St Johnstone -v- ICT : matchday thread

[dougal]

4-5-1 formation today if i'm not mistaken with Djebi-Tade up front on his own

Now I occasionally get slagged off for being negative but what does that make Terry Butcher and his tactics this afternoon??????

Seems to me the management team set out for a draw today which simply isn't good enough and short changes the travelling ICT fans

dougal

[hislopsoffsideagain]

Dougal, were you even at the game? - definitely a 4-4-2, Foran stood up front all game. The tactics weren't negative, just crap.

[WeAreSPL]

One things for sure - if we don't play one or both of the two strikers we have, until we get a new one in on loan in the New Year, we're relegated.

[The Mantis]

What Hislop said, both times. Looked like a 4-4-2 to me.

My first game since EEP in August and what a waste of 21 quid. Saints were happy to let us tap it around midfield in pretty patterns without taking any risks getting into the box. Could have still been playing yet, Saints away home for their tea, floodlights off, and we'd still never score. Davies didn't impress me at all on first viewing. Chippendale, maybe. Tansey, thought he had potential before but a bit of a headless chicken today. Shinnie, a luxury. Other Shinnie, shaky. Proctor, if he's a player at all it's in midfield. Tade, well.....

I actually thought Rosscoe was no bad but that's maybe because the rest were so poor. I've said it before but Russeldinho used to fight for the jersey and got stick every week. Most of these players don't know what it means to play for ICT.

Roll on the return of Hayes. Never really thought Hogg, Doran, Cox were all that great but their return is urgent.

Spoke to one Saints fan on the way out. He reckons we were better in midfield than them and we'll be ok, thinks Dunfermline are the poorest side.

Had a Saints supporting mate in the Ormond stand with his son. Texted me after 70 mins saying 'what a dull game. At least they're giving away free copies of The Beano in our end".

[davie]

I could cope if this was just a rant in the same way as Hislops, but his slant actually comes over as a pretty dispassionate analysis of what I watched today. Hislops assessment is right, these guys came across as a buch of journeymen on short term deals who were just claiming a wage. No commitment to the club or the community that supports them. I'df only disagree about Rosscoe because he looked embarrased. Foran was a liability. He is off form, is suffering from the captaincy in the same way that Munro did but has not of Granty's humility. I see no merit in mouthing off at half of your own team when your own performance rates as dreadful. I also don't know how long we can tolerate managerial post mortems that start with "blimey" and claim to not know how it happened. Terry, you should know and you should be sorting it. Just dreadful.

Edited October 15, 2011 by davie

[lukemackay]

butchers only mistake today was taking tade off for sutherland and not foran

the rest was down to the players themselves.

its hard to take any positives from todays game

we did have a go from outside the box instead of trying to walk it into the net. it almost payed off once or twice but st johnstone were extremly organised at the back and we just have to concede we were beaten by the better side today

cillian sheridan going off realy done us a favour him and sangria are dinamite you could see that from st johnstones first attack terific understanding

[Yngwie]

We just didn't look like a team today, and I don't think we've ever looked so toothless upfront.

The contest between our attack and their defence was incredibly one sided, amateurs against pros. Saints were solid at the back and very well organised, but still, we just did nothing in the final 3rd, no creativity or penetration, and most of our attempts on goal were long range efforts from Tansey, who at least was trying.

A very worrying performance on the whole. Not happy.

[Guest]

I basically agree with Hislop - damn poor stuff. There was a slump after the Saints got their first goal, then the heads seemed to go down for good after the second. Not for the first time this season we tapped the ball around without having any bite, while looking fragile at the back.

Tade will only be as good as the players around him make him look - with better through balls and options to play it to, he'll threaten. He didn't have much/any of either today. Davis looks like he's well built, but was brushed off the ball by a slip of a lad in the first half. Not sure he picked a pass all day.

Not convinced by the system either - playing A Shinnie behind the strikers with no-one out on the left. Andrew Shinnie has shown flashes of potential, but not today. Because we rely on him getting on the ball and providing a link, I think the system makes him a passenger if things aren't going our way. Maybe we're not good enough to pass our way through teams...although we demonstrated we can't cross the ball either.

[Guest Mahonio]

Is it time to start wearing slip on shoes to matches yet?

Probably not yet, if you are referring to protesting for Butcher's sacking but believe me, that will come soon if things don't improve, we are better than this and we know it!

[Alex MacLeod]

That was my second game of this season so far and, like the first (EEP), I came away thinking we were a lower league team unable to compete with the big boys. We have some good individual players in the squad but we still dont have a team. We lack direction on the park. We lack motivation on the park. For me we lack a captain. Richie Foran, in both games I've been to, has been pretty poor. He has hardly moved more than 20 paces all match. His effort and his touches have been pretty poor yet he has the audacity to chastise his team mates for the same. If he is going to continue to lead then he has to do it by example. He has to acknowledge good play and he has to motivate and encourage throughout the match. Foran has been excellent for us in the past but perhaps its time he was dropped for a game or two.

[Pele_Is_God]

Butcher will NEVER drop Foran.

[alternative maryhill]

Butcher will NEVER drop Foran.

I think you're probably right. I'm also not sure who would replace him if he was to be dropped. He was certainly poor yesterday, and hasn't looked great all season, but to be honest, I don't think we had a single performer who looked good yesterday. Tade had the poorest game I've seen him have, Andrew Shinnie, who by all accounts had a good game two weeks ago, was completely ineffectual again, Ross, playing wide, was marginalised and while Davis and Tansey looked fine knocking the ball around in midfield, neither was able to find passes that would open St Johnstone up; although they weren't helped by the movement of the players ahead of them. All this without mentioning a central defence made up of two non-central defenders (I just don't accept that Tokely is a natural centre half). Graeme Shinnie probably looked our best player again, and unfortunately a left back will never be able to carry a struggling team.

I wasn't at either of our wins this season so my view is probably jaundiced, but on the basis of the four defeats and one draw I've witnessed I think there's every chance that we will go down. This is not to say that I think Butcher should be removed, by the way: on the contrary, I think there are very strong arguments for keeping him even if we are relegated. But we've got to accept that something isn't working this season, and even when Hayes and Cox return, I think we're going to struggle because of the lack of a goalscorer and the fragility in defence. The game against Dunfermline next week has probably come at the right time: hopefully there will be a strong reaction from the management and the players to yesterday's performance, and despite our limitations we might have enough to beat a team that seems to be struggling a bit to make the step up to the SPL. If we lose that, though, then things will look very bleak.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Is TB's persistence in sticking to his apparent chosen ones and equal adherence to a failing system not really beginning to irritate everyone ? It certainly is beginning to cheese me off and you dont have to be a seer to see the ICT future and I am really fed up practically typing the same thing week in and feckin week out.

I really am not over confident of putting one over the Pars and my hope and dread combine that we sneak another 2-1 or 1-0 win. Three points isnt a must yet - even a point would do. Butcher will probably persevere with the chosen ones but a defeat would force him to come to his senses. And before his Loyal Army get on their high horse of course he is working with a squad hit by injuries to key players but he is not setting out the players that he has effectively.

Surely he must see that Proc is simply not a central defender - thst Foran should be captaining from the middle of the park and Tade should be partnering Sutherland who really should have been thrown in to the mix this season. Davis is only here till Xmas so why are we playing him consistently - is he making that much of a difference. My other big concern is that Rosscoe may be palying too many games at a pressure level and may not last the pace.

They say that the strength of a team is around the spine - we have two central defenders who are not naturals - we chop and change the playmaker and are currently depending on a youngster who is only here to Xmas and two forwards who arent natural strikers. 10 goals in 11 games says it all.

And despite what some say I am informed that most fans feel that there is no "togetherness" and confidence is sapping.

[+Wanderer]

...there is no "togetherness" and confidence is sapping.

Certainly true yesterday. Saints are a decent side and had us by the scruff of the neck from the start.

All the complaints about yesterday's individuals and tactics are spot on. Not moaning for the sake of it, just a plain fact that this ICT team are spineless and strong relegation candidates.

[gingerjaggy]

was certainly a poor performance where the formation was totally ineffective. The formation i saw was a 4-1-2-1-2 with shinnie in the playmaker role and davies as the sitting player and then 2 wide men who gave no width at all as they aint wide men. the two banks of four for saints totally squeezed the space meaning shinnie couldnt play with any freedom. Foran was poor up front even though the service he got was crap but my dud of the game was davies as he was sloppy and when on the ball took longer than needed when a good pass was on. he kept it and the chance was gone and what was worrying was we had a few periods of pressure on saints and yet not once did we ever look like scoring apart from chippendale hitiing the bar not good but lets keep our heads up big game next week so lets just try and treat it as a one off as i believe we have played mostly not to bad

[CaleyD]

First time in a while I've seen heads go down so quickly in our squad...and that annoys me more than a poor performance.

What's even more worrying is that it was the Captains head that went down first and instead of moving to motivate and encourage he just dragged everyone down with him and resorted to criticism and castigation...which coming from someone who's far from performing himself would have only served to get players backs up.

I actually wondered at one point yesterday if the team realised they were in a competitive match, or if they'd mistaken this for another bounce game. Nobody was committing to the tackle, challenging in the air was practically non-existent, Foran and Tade spent the entire game tripping over each other, nobody was moving or running in an attempt to create anything and our final ball was nearly always an attempt to put something over the top instead of driving it through on the ground. The players couldn't even be bothered with hoof ball yesterday...that's how bad it was!!!

Is it Butchers fault? Not so sure. These are the very same guys who put on a great performance in our previous two games and there's no way Butcher could have predicted them going out there and doing what they did (or didn't, in this case). Not much he could do to change it on the day as he was only allowed to make 3 subs in a match where 7 or 8 players could/should have been hooked.

[DALNEIGHCALEY]

The buck has to stop with the manager , he was the one that signed most of the players and he is the one that has to motivate and prepare the team for games .

[The Mantis]

I actually wondered at one point yesterday if the team realised they were in a competitive match, or if they'd mistaken this for another bounce game.

The marking at the first goal was atrocious - bad enough that it reached Sandaza in the box but the ball should never have been allowed to reach Sheridan on the left in the first place. That reminds me - away to see the highlowlights

Edited October 17, 2011 by TheMantis
Of course It was Sheridan on the left:-)

[caley100]

Anyone else having a job getting the highlghts on the BBC website, tried all last night and a minute ago, all i get is a revolving yellow icon....zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[+DoofersDad]

Anyone else having a job getting the highlghts on the BBC website, tried all last night and a minute ago, all i get is a revolving yellow icon....zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Take my advice and just settle for that.

[CaleyD]

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