Another Loss

[Renegade]

And people keep on talking about Munro and Duncan - I do think that Munro would have made a difference but it is the type of repalcement player that we have not attained.

It'll be even worse next season if the current trend keeps up. Make of this what you will, but I have been very reliably informed that Butcher's hit-list ain't over yet. He got rid of Duncan, he got rid of Munro, there's one more left.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Renegade

[lukemackay]

And people keep on talking about Munro and Duncan - I do think that Munro would have made a difference but it is the type of repalcement player that we have not attained.

It'll be even worse next season if the current trend keeps up. Make of this what you will, but I have been very reliably informed that Butcher's hit-list ain't over yet. He got rid of Duncan, he got rid of Munro, there's one more left.

munro for hogg

duncan for tansey

i dont see what butchers done wrong there

duncan wasnt exactly a mainstay last season he played his fair share but he wasnt vital to our season

munro in january was replaced by hogg our squad would look stronger with munro in it without a doubt but he wouldnt start every game he would be a fill in centre back for hogg or tokely which we could of done with because of our injuries but what could butcher do about that he isnt psycic

munros a valuable part of our past but its time to look forward

as for the one left i asume this is tokely and i believe this is bulls**t why would butcher get rid of the only player that has played 90% of the games hes been in charge of unmoved the whole 3 years almost tokelys been the most consistent performer of of butchers reign in charge. come the end of the season i believe tokely will be getting offered a new contract but i also believe it will be his last 1 or 2 years i dont know.

thats just what i think but we can speculate what we want but its butchers team and i believe hes the man for the job

[AJS]

A little unfair. Tokely and Hogg would have played every game, had they been available. Butcher hasn't willingly shifted around his defence. Injuries have forced him to.

Which calls into question the quality of our defence.

[Scarlet Pimple]

It's my opinion that if he transfers Tokely the psychological effect will virtually assure the relegation of the team.

[Renegade]

munro for hogg

duncan for tansey

i dont see what butchers done wrong there

Munro is better than Hogg, Duncan is better than Tansey.

munro in january was replaced by hogg our squad would look stronger with munro in it without a doubt but he wouldnt start every game he would be a fill in centre back for hogg or tokely which we could of done with because of our injuries but what could butcher do about that he isnt psycic

Even more of a reason why he should of been kept then.

why would butcher get rid of the only player that has played 90% of the games hes been in charge of

So has Munro!

Edited November 28, 2011 by Renegade

[Doofer]

Our form my not be very good at the moment but we are only 2 points off 9th spot. If we can get 2 or 3 wins before the new year i would be happy to take it and then kick on into next year. Hopefully the club can sign a player or two in january (rooney bk on loan perhaps as he's not playing at birmingham)Obviously the injuries have not helped and once the team is injury free i really think we will be more than safe for another year.

[+Fraz]

Our defence has looked suspect all season, this of course has not been helped by injuries forcing some changes and other signings. However there has never seemed to be a plan for our defence, Hogg left (partly down to his wife not liking it up here I believe) but couldn't get another club elsewhere so was happily welcomed back near the end of the transfer window if memory serves (but sometimes it doesn't lol), indicating that he wasn't in TB's plan for the defence anyway. Just as a defender who actually wanted to stay was told cheerio. Rumour of course - but I've also heard from more than one person that Hogg's wife is Butcher's god-daughter, and if true I'm sure that had nothing to do with it .

I would def agree that part of the problem this season was decisions made at the tail end of last season / close season which have now come back to haunt us. Essentially - fairly sweeping clearances without a clear vision or identification of the players who will replace them will be, as that 'trialist' game was evidence of. I agree that older players have to move on and new players come in but regardless if the outgoing player is Grant Munro or Danni Sanchez then surely the incoming player needs to be at least as good if not better, if they ain't then why bother trying to get new players for the sake of it and then having to wait for them to gel in the hope that they will improve?

I hope things do improve very soon as we are fairly lucky that a few other teams are playing rubbish and defeat has a way of becoming a difficult habit to break.

[lukemackay]

munro and duncan are gone time to move on

if hogg hasnt replaced munro then we have a reliable young 19 year old in meekings who will

im not going to sit and whinge about what butchers done by getting rid of munro because i dont think it matters he done alot for the club but everyones time comes to an end.

[PaderbornCaley]

Look at our last 4 games.

Very good against Well and narrow defeat

Superb against Killie and emphatic win

Good against Celtic and unlucky due to sending off

Poor against Hearts but had chances to win / score more

Hibs / Aberdeen / Pars are all playing consistantly shoite at the moment. We ain't going to soar up the table, but I think we will be fine... eventually!

[+Fraz]

munro and duncan are gone time to move on

if hogg hasnt replaced munro then we have a reliable young 19 year old in meekings who will

im not going to sit and whinge about what butchers done by getting rid of munro because i dont think it matters he done alot for the club but everyones time comes to an end.

I'm not sure if this post is a general comment or a response to mine, regardless it's not just about any particular player however yes some do of course stand out but a general lack of foresight/planning, knowing decisively who he wanted out but having no idea who he wanted in. You don't quit your job and sell your house without a plan of what you are going to do next, do you?

I agree Meekings looks a prospect so hopefully he will help plug the gaps that have been left.

I so happy that you are not going to whinge at TB's decisions because because 'you don't think it matters' but the facts and evidence so far this season would suggest otherwise, of course if we were sitting in sixth or seventh place no-one would be complaining (probably).

Ironically you seem to mention Munro & Duncan more than anyone!

[ICTPaisley]

Maybe next time we finish 7th in the SPL we'll try and keep hold of those players that got us there instead of replacing them with young players that might turn out good in the future. I'd much rather have a side doing well than a team that looks good for the future.

We messed up big time in the summer and this season we should have been pushing for top 6. It hasn't worked out for us and we just have to hope theres a team thats worse than us by the end of the year, so far i'm not convinced with two draws against Dunfermline to prove they are just as good as us at the moment. If we survive this season in the SPL we can build for next season and hopefully get back to aiming for that top 6 position.

[PaderbornCaley]

Maybe next time we finish 7th in the SPL we'll try and keep hold of those players that got us there instead of replacing them with young players that might turn out good in the future. I'd much rather have a side doing well than a team that looks good for the future.

This whole debate about Munro and Duncan is dragging out far too long, but i'll get involved lol

I hear people going on about ten players leaving etc. How many were influential in getting us to 7th? Certainly not Golly or McBain last season.

Three players that played most weeks were Rooney, Munro, Duff.

Duff has been replaced in Meekings

Rooney was always going to be hard to replace, but Tade is starting to score and show his worth

Munro probably should still be there but on paper having Hogg and Tokely in the middle ain't bad!

Duncan: Well he didn't actually play much last season. He was on the bench most weeks which seems to have been forgotten! Plus, we have an excellent midfield on paper. I'd say Cox is the heir to Duncans position. Tansey can be seen as a replacement to Duncan. Most people rate Tansey as well.

I've heard people saying things like Butcher 'cut too hard in the summer'. He had no control over Rooney, Duff didn't look like ever signing, McBain and Golly had to go. Sanchez hardly featured, Duncan didn't feature much last season. Odihambo blew hot and cold (more cold) We can't keep a team full of substitutes. If Munro had been kept, would we be say top 6 right now? Probably not. Terrys building with the likes of Meekings and Tansey. If we can start to climb, then the future looks great. Also, remember, with the defensive injuries we've had, the back 4 haven't been settled. If we can keep the same back 4 for the next few games, I am sure they will find consistency.

[Joe DiMaggio]

Look at our last 4 games.

Very good against Well and narrow defeat

Superb against Killie and emphatic win

Good against Celtic and unlucky due to sending off

Poor against Hearts but had chances to win / score more

Hibs / Aberdeen / Pars are all playing consistantly shoite at the moment. We ain't going to soar up the table, but I think we will be fine... eventually!

And conceeded 10 goals in that time! It's easy to say we will come good and be ok, but we've all been saying that for too long now. We are 3 games away from half the season gone. We are in a relegation fight this season and it will be a struggle to stay up, Aberdeen, Hibs and Dunfermline might come good then we will start to be stranded. We need to start winning games now!

[Renegade]

munro and duncan are gone time to move on

It's funny what a good voice on the radio will do! I remember a few years ago, Brewster got rid of Barry Wilson and Dennis Wyness and he was absolutely crucified on here. Now, Wilson I agree maybe had a bit more to give, but Wyness was injury prone and had been past it for the best part of three years! Munro and Duncan are essentially in the primes of their career for the positions they play, unlike Wyness and Wilson who were on the way out (at least Wilson was replaced by Morais!). I wonder if it had been Butcher who'd gotten rid of these two, then the attitude would be different?

if hogg hasnt replaced munro then we have a reliable young 19 year old in meekings who will

You can't always replace experience with youth, it doesn't work like that. Have you ever seen Meekings at centre-back? No, neither have I. Has Terry even? He might be a good full back but rubbish at centre-half for all we know.

im not going to sit and whinge about what butchers done by getting rid of munro because i dont think it matters

Sitting bottom of the league, nah it doesn't matter!

he done alot for the club but everyones time comes to an end.

And so will his. But to put it in perspective, Wyness's time had come to an end. Wilson's time was coming to an end. McBain's time had come to an end. Golabek's time ended years ago. Duncan and more importantly Munro's time wasn't over. They had much more to give and wanted to give it - and you know it.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Renegade

[starchief]

Duncan barely even plays for Ross County these days. The odd 10 minutes from the bench but that's about it. Munro, I can agree on - although give Hogg a run of 2-3 matches and I think he could be our best CD since Dods. But I don't think Duncan would have made much of a difference. Especially when you consider we've been weak in def mid due to injuries to Cox and Jones, rather than them not playing well.

[lukemackay]

munro and duncan are gone time to move on

It's funny what a good voice on the radio will do! I remember a few years ago, Brewster got rid of Barry Wilson and Dennis Wyness and he was absolutely crucified on here. Now, Wilson I agree maybe had a bit more to give, but Wyness was injury prone and had been past it for the best part of three years! Munro and Duncan are essentially in the primes of their career for the positions they play, unlike Wyness and Wilson who were on the way out (at least Wilson was replaced by Morais!). I wonder if it had been Butcher who'd gotten rid of these two, then the attitude would be different?

if hogg hasnt replaced munro then we have a reliable young 19 year old in meekings who will

You can't always replace experience with youth, it doesn't work like that. Have you ever seen Meekings at centre-back? No, neither have I. Has Terry even? He might be a good full back but rubbish at centre-half for all we know.

im not going to sit and whinge about what butchers done by getting rid of munro because i dont think it matters

Sitting bottom of the league, nah it doesn't matter!

he done alot for the club but everyones time comes to an end.

And so will his. But to put it in perspective, Wyness's time had come to an end. Wilson's time was coming to an end. McBain's time had come to an end. Golabek's time ended years ago. Duncan and more importantly Munro's time wasn't over. They had much more to give and wanted to give it - and you know it.

i just think more backing needs to be given to butcher by fans on this forum instead of looking at the 2 players he got rid of look at the likes of meekings, a.shinnie, piermayr, tansey, and tade, who have all done well for us so far, munro on his own would not keep us off the bottom of the league no 1 player can have that much of an effect its a team sport

munro was 3rd choice centre back at the end of last season, he isnt as much of a loss as people are making out

i just want to move on from this whole subject, its getting old. its a new dawn at tcs and its time to look forward and not back

[+Fraz]

i just think more backing needs to be given to butcher by fans on this forum instead of looking at the 2 players he got rid of look at the likes of meekings, a.shinnie, piermayr, tansey, and tade, who have all done well for us so far, munro on his own would not keep us off the bottom of the league no 1 player can have that much of an effect its a team sport

munro was 3rd choice centre back at the end of last season, he isnt as much of a loss as people are making out

i just want to move on from this whole subject, its getting old. its a new dawn at tcs and its time to look forward and not back

TBH I think Butcher gets a great deal of backing from people on this forum and that us ICT fans on the whole have been more understanding and patient than fans of many other teams would be in a similar situation so I really don't see your issue there. However you can't say that you should back a manager with blind faith and agree with everything they do, unless of course that's your genuine view. Some people might disagree with substitutions, team selection, formation, signings etc that doesn't necessarily that they hate Butcher and everything he does. Dunno if you are still at School/College/Uni or out in the working world but just because someone's the gaffer doesn't mean their always right, trust me. Surely some people can look at the evidence so far this season - the results and say well maybe he should have done (and do) this and that?

IMO out of the signings you mention a couple look good, a couple look mediocre and one I just canne decide WTF I think.

If you are tired of the subject and wanna move on save your energy and just stop posting (on that particular topic, not everything obviously lol)!

As for a 'new dawn' I'll wait till we start racking up points and stop propping up the table before I start buying into anything close to that!! I suppose though 'It's always darkest before the dawn' :biggrin:

[Scarlet Pimple]

Capital Caley I found your post interesting. Yes, the team may settle down nicely as the younger players come good as the season p[rogresses.

However, if the likes of Meekings and Tansey and so on return to England as a result of being spotted for their innate talented showings, what then?

Back to dip into the loanee tub is it? That will not build a team for the future.

[PaderbornCaley]

Capital Caley I found your post interesting. Yes, the team may settle down nicely as the younger players come good as the season p[rogresses.

However, if the likes of Meekings and Tansey and so on return to England as a result of being spotted for their innate talented showings, what then?

Back to dip into the loanee tub is it? That will not build a team for the future.

I can't remember about Tansey (someone please enlighten me) but Meekings got a 2 year contract. There are a few loanees / 1 year deals but with Meekings and Doran as well I think, slightly longer deals will give Terry and Mo time to work with them. With the 1 year deals for the likes of Tade, i'm sure the plan would be to review them and offer extensions. Maybe the gamble of long term deals financially is too much a risk if they fail.

Of course if they do shine, they will be offski, but we've always had that problem. What are we supposed to do? Not sign them in the first place? Our good players are always going to attract interest in bigger clubs. It's the manager or DOF's job to try and keep them, through contract extensions.

[AJS]

Capital Caley I found your post interesting. Yes, the team may settle down nicely as the younger players come good as the season p[rogresses.

However, if the likes of Meekings and Tansey and so on return to England as a result of being spotted for their innate talented showings, what then?

Back to dip into the loanee tub is it? That will not build a team for the future.

How would that be any different than what happened with the likes of Rooney and Cowie? We are never going to be able to hold on to our best players forever. If a player leaves we replace them, thats the way its always worked and that will never change. And dipping into the loan market this season was out of necessity with all the injuries we had at the start of the season.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

To be fair to Butcher - he has improved dramatically in the recent past - especially since getting my mobile telphone number.

Capital Caley - Tade is beginning to replace Rooney (Mickey I presume !!)

[Ten4]

Loan Deals will be expiring for most clubs - maybe once all the wheeling & dealing is done we will be better off quality of playerwise than the other teams.

Obviously getting Doran back fit. OTJones, & Cox back to full pelt will be like new signings anyway so -surely we can look forward to 2nd half of season with better aspirations.

Reckon on a couple being released/ not being able to persuade to stay tho

[Sorted]

OT Jones has only mangaged around 30 games in nearly 3 years. He gets paid by all his clubs for sitting in the stand. Check out his record.

I will be astounded if he plays more than 8 games this season.

[AJS]

OT Jones has only mangaged around 30 games in nearly 3 years. He gets paid by all his clubs for sitting in the stand. Check out his record.

I will be astounded if he plays more than 8 games this season.

Regardless of Jones's health, if Davis has his loan spell extended it will be him keeping Jones out of the team.

Edited November 30, 2011 by ajsict92

[lukemackay]

OT Jones has only mangaged around 30 games in nearly 3 years. He gets paid by all his clubs for sitting in the stand. Check out his record.

I will be astounded if he plays more than 8 games this season.

Regardless of Jones's health, if Davis has his loan spell extended it will be him keeping Jones out of the team.

i hope jones can get back to fittness his theres no doubtig his ability he showed that in the 2 90 minutes he played for us

him in holding midfeild with davis and shinnie ahead of him would be pretty spectacular imo its just whether he can stay fit thats the question