Tories back vote on Independence

[Mee]

Scotsman story

I can't believe I just read this

"A REFERENDUM on Scottish independence could be held as early as next year after a dramatic move by Conservative leaders to support the historic poll.

The party's vice-chairman has publicly backed a referendum as soon as possible to "clear the air" over Scotland's constitutional future.

Several Tory MSPs are backing the move, claiming the poll - which is likely to reject independence three to one - would "shoot the Nationalists' fox".

Conservative supporters of the plan believe it is essential to kill off the independence issue to reassure businesses and potential investors that Scotland has a stable future, while also giving them a chance to set the "positive case" for the Union.

The move, which has caused widespread astonishment at Holyrood, was last night welcomed by First Minister Alex Salmond.

The Nationalists have promised a referendum on independence within the term of the Parliament but the mathematics of Holyrood make it impossible for them to push through the necessary law on their own.

The backing of the entire Tory group, Greens and the one independent MSP would give them a majority."

I DETEST the Tories with a passion and I accept they have ulterior motives for this move but I have to say well done to them for thinking out of the box and backing the SNP here. I bet Nicol Steven's choking on his Sunday dinner today!  :003:

[Guest donmac298]

I dislike the Tories just as much as I dislike Labour but a vote on Independence is too early and would be a disaster, that is why the Tories have done an about-turn on the issue - they know what the result would be.  Do they think we Scots are stupid or something?  Let's see what difference the SNP make first and then have a vote in two or three years time.  Rushing into it now would be madness. 

[PullMyFinger]

You guys crack me up. I for one will vote for independance. The only drawback will be a long drawn out political battle about oil revenues. :tank:

[Charles Bannerman]

I wish you Nationalist chaps would make up your minds! A decade and a half ago we had Salmond whingeing on urgently about "Free by 93" (whatever happened to that?!) And now the Nats have got the chance of the referendum they bleated about the Libs depriving them of, they're still not happy because they know **** fine they won't win it. The Tories have basically called the SNP's bluff.

Remember Salmond is minority First Minister because...  he has one seat more than the second biggest party, he waged a campaign which kept independence right out of the limelight because it's a vote loser... and he benefited hugely from a massive protest vote against Labour on completely unrelated issues (which apparently even had some members of THE ORANGE LODGE voting SNP!!!  :015:) Hardly indicative of a groundswell in favour of going it alone.

[Guest kcj]

The Scottish Parliament is too young to competently carry an independant Scotland imo, we need a generation or two to really find our feet politically, gain strength and confidence.

One thing that worries me with all this is that, historically, the English Governments made it very difficult for us to trade outwith Scotland (in the years leading up to the 1707 Act of Union I mean) and it was very damaging to us and kinda made union with England inevitable.

I'd like to be convinced this wouldn't be the situation again in future for Scotland operating as an independant nation again.  I'm sure the English Gov would continue to make life very difficult in that regard when and if Scotland becomes independant again.

[Charles Bannerman]

So the total failure of the Darien Scheme had nothing to do with complete Scottish incompetence then?

[Alex MacLeod]

You guys crack me up. I for one will vote for independance. The only drawback will be a long drawn out political battle about oil revenues. :tank:

Soon there wont be oil revenues to argue about.

[Guest donmac298]

Some time ago I referred to Jim Siller's comment that "the people of Scotland did not have the bottle to go for Independence".  That comment only applies to losers like CB!

[PullMyFinger]

Some time ago I referred to Jim Siller's comment that "the people of Scotland did not have the bottle to go for Independence".  That comment only applies to losers like CB!

I'd be careful about slinging mud, the mod's 'll get you :016:

It's Alex Salmonds job now to convince the voting public that we should be completely self governing. :021:

Independence by itself won't make a dime of difference. There's nothing intrinsically good about independence. It depends what we do with it. We could end up with an even ****eier government than the one we already have. If Hollyrood is anything to go by it'll be the same parties carrying on where they left off. Business as usual. Higer taxes, more regulations, more political correctness, more bans, more attacks on civil liberties, more blood sucking parasitical state bureaucrats who produce nothing, more cowtowing to party-affiliated special interests.

I wish the SNP would actually stand for 'freedom', not just for the Scottish Government - but for the Scottish people. I for one would welcome a libertarian alternative. If we have to go independent to get it, so be it.

Why don't you join up and change things for the better then?  :023:

[Guest kcj]

ehm CB it was King William himself wouldn't allow the English to deal with The Company of Scotland....around 50percent of investments from England were withdrawn or lost.  We were at a disadvantage cos the English had stronger foreign policies and they could undermine and thwart Scotland's plans to expand economically.

We'll have our independence eventually!

[PullMyFinger]

How long do our Eastern European cousins have to be here before they get a vote? I'm sure they'd be sympathetic to the cause.

[SMEE]

Its a bit of a miss-leading subject heading. What in fact is going on is....... Some Conservative dude (with amazingly white teeth and looks a bit like Mr Blair)who is beneath Annabel Goldie in the pecking order, has said he wanted this Vote for independance beacause he believes the SNP will loose the vote and the matter can be laid to rest. But Goldie does not share his wish for the vote!

[The Mantis]

A decade and a half ago we had Salmond whingeing on urgently about "Free by 93"

That wasn't Salmond, it was Alex Neil in an 'Alan Douglas' moment, ie he's a 'loose cannon' as you would put it yourself  :004:

[Charles Bannerman]

Mantis, you mean Chic Allan was in the SNP but Alex Neil had never heard of him?

kcj... yes, of course it's ALWAYS the fault of the English. (That was also the favourite whinge of Salmond until he put independence and his Whingeing Jock persona on the back burner pre May 3rd to make himself electable.) But what did the Darien people expect? If the guy in the shop next door is trying to expand, it's just sensible business to do everything within your power to scupper his plans. However if the guy next door happens also to be utterly incompetent, you shouldn't really even have to bother.  William Paterson and friends would have screwed up anyway with their abysmally thought out scheme which saw them sally forth rather like prototype Argentina-bound Ally MacLeods, or perhaps latter day James IVs heading south for a doing from England Reserves at the Stadio del Flodden. These people squandered the wealth of the nation by going out there and trying to sell combs and mirrors to the inhabitants of a swamp! And unfortunately they didn't have radio in these days so they couldn't call up HQ to say "Sh!t lads, the game's a bogey.... DON'T send the second lot of ships!"

They were about as clued up on international trade as Alex Salmond is about the Olympic Games, if you remember that rather sorry episode from his very first week in office.

donmac298... your comments and Jim Sillars' are fairly typical of the sort of narrow minded nationalist arrogance that your views are the only right ones and there's something deficient about anyone who doesn't share them. Perhaps you should remember that there has never been anything other than a very significant majority AGAINST independence so you would do well at least to respect the views of the large majority of Scots, even if you don't agree with them.

Anyway, Dame Margaret Rutherford in her reincarnation as leader of the Scottish Conservatives says they won't be backing a referendum.

[Alex MacLeod]

Charles, may I just correct your statement regarding a majority against independance. In the 1979 referendum the people of scotland who turned out to vote returned a count in favour of devolution by a result of 52% to 48% against. Under the recognised voting system of the time this would have resulted in a devolved parliament for Scotland but the government of the time and the then Secretary of State concocted a new rule, specifically for this referendum, whereby at least 40% of the eligible voters in the country had to vote yes. Unfortunately, due to what was a better than average turnout for any election only 33% could be attained. In order to achieve the required 40% something like 75% of the eligible electorate would have had to vote. A figure that has never been achieved before or since except for the 1950 general election where it was 80%

[Charles Bannerman]

Alex... the 1979 Referendum, with its attached Cunningham Amendment, wasn't on the question of independence it was on the question of whether there should be a devolved assembly.... and even for that, it only attracted 52% support.

Rosco 17.... I note that you have fallen into the traditional nationalist trap of stating that certain small countries are more successful than Scotland and then making the totally unsubstantiated assumption that this is because they are independent.

Look at the other side of the coin... if these countries are alrerady more successful than Scotland, then how much worse would things get after Scotland lost its current substantial Westminster subsidy from the Barnett Formula and after the oil runs out in a few years' time?

[PullMyFinger]

donmac298... your comments and Jim Sillars' are fairly typical of the sort of narrow minded nationalist arrogance that your views are the only right ones and there's something deficient about anyone who doesn't share them. Perhaps you should remember that there has never been anything other than a very significant majority AGAINST independence so you would do well at least to respect the views of the large majority of Scots, even if you don't agree with them.

I think you should take some of your own medicine CB. Do you have any proof other than the drivel forced down our throats by the media?

[Charles Bannerman]

Ah.. so the media are against you as well as the English then?

[PullMyFinger]

Ah.. so the media are against you as well as the English then?

:clapping03:Interesting comment, but I'm not going to take the bait. A vote for independance is not a vote against England but a vote for the Scottish people to have a Scottish Parliament addressing Scottish issues. Are you suggesting I am a racist for I can assure you I am not, I had an English grandfather. I am however Scottish and resent my country historically being governed by those who see us as second class citizens. I would love a referendum on independance to give us home rule. The first action of a truly autonomous SNP led government must be to disband the SNP and call a general election. THe SNP should never have had a manifesto, too many political views under the one roof.

[Guest donmac298]

4thStand -  I'm not slinging mud, it's just my sense of humour!  I value CB's points of view quite highly actually.

[PullMyFinger]

I on the other hand have views of my own, I don't need to look to others for validation. I also value the fact that others have their views but for some to quote fancy figures about the political opinions of others that they have no way of backing up just, well...stinks in my opinion.

[Guest donmac298]

CB - read my response to 4thStand - I'm afraid you've got it all wrong.  I respect everyone's opinions and believe it or not I can see both the good and the bad points in any Party.  There is nothing narrow about my opinion of the SNP, they will make mistakes just like everyone else.  I despair when I see the way today's society has turned out.  Take a look at the state England is in and Scotland is heading the same way.  You can not blame the SNP for letting that happen.  I lived in England years ago and their opinion of Scotland was not very nice to put it mildly and nowadays they can't wait to move up here.  Does that not tell you something?  I still have friends down there and they all say it's not the England I used to know.  In all those years the only governments we have had have been Tories and Labour.

Sorry if I've touched a raw sensitive nerve with my earlier comment.

[Mee]

Theres some utter p1sh being written on this thread!!!

Basically I pity anyone who thinks Scotland is not capable of governing itself effectively, your lack of confidence in your own people is a complete disgrace.

Theres a lot of hot air on respecting other peoples opinions but this thread is about a referendum for people to express their opinions, if you cant respect that you should just keep your half baked comments to yourself!  :008: :018:

[Kingsmills]

I am fully in favour of our country being independant but I don't blame the English for our ills.

The Union might just have been a good thing for Scotland in 1707 from a purely commercial and economic point of view and, although I disagree with much of what Charles has to say on the subject, there's no doubt that the failure of the ill conceived and badly executed Darien experiment was a factor which swayed the tiny proportion of the population who had a say on the matter at that time.

However, that was 300 years ago and when all factors are taken into account including the massive but cleverly hidden London subsidy is taken into account the fact of the matter is that independance is unlikely, at the outset at least, to make much difference either way either to the financial standing of individuals or the wlth of the nation as a whole but, in my opinion, that is not the point. I am convinced that independance will increase the confidence and well being of the nation over time as well as alowing the opportunity of developing fiscal policy and a tax regime for the benifit os Scotland rather than the often very diofferent circumstances prevailing in the south east of England which has always, perhaps understandaly held sway if for no other reason than it's huge weight of population.

That said, if a referendum was to be held on the subject sooner rather than later the result would almost certainly be a no vote.The pro Union faction would run a very well funded and entirely negative, not to say disingenuous, campaign and the fact of the matter is that it is now so long since we have taken resposibility for our own affairs that we there are far too many craven individuals out there who will swallow the propoganda that independance would be a financial disaster despite the fact that those who peddle that myth for their own ends can't point to a single poor small european country as an example of the the fate they say would await us.

Why on earth should we be so very different from the likes of Ireland, Norway or Finland ?

[The Mantis]

CB, I fear you are letting your personal dislike of Salmond's smugness/arrogance/whatever get in the way of the facts. You've been repeating all that stuff about 'The Unglish' for months and unless you can substantiate it you should let it die quietly.

So while repetition is in fashion, I'll just repeat that any anti-English sentiments in my workplace come from the so-called socialists, the supporters of champagne Tony. The Nationalists, in the face of racist accusations, have had to work out their intellectual ground long ago. In any case, I know plenty of English incomers who support the Nationalists.

Scots are not stupid and now we discover, under the 30 year rule, that there were attempts to deny the democratic process in the 1970s. Support for independence is almost entirely a positive aspiration and CB you are using arguments which may once have been true but died out with flared trousers and mullets.

Edit: What Kingsmills said  :clapping03: :clapping03: :clapping03: