Is Butcher the Man for the Job?

[jaggy]

Believe me I am trying!!!

[lukemackay]

Some one close this thread. Sickens me whenever I see it come back up.

[Renegade]

If it "sickens" you much, why click on it? There's lots of far more sickening stuff on the internet than this, yet you wouldn't click on that.

[lukemackay]

I don't like having little icons that indicate I havnt read it. Just my ocd.

[Guest Mahonio]

Is he the man for the job you ask, well, i am now doubting if he is BUT, i will give him more time but believe me, if we EVER play as badly as that, i WILL turn on him more!!

[CaleyD]

Can I just check that you guys are watching the same games as the rest? Majority of people I have spoken to this season are delighted with the way the team is playing and despite yesterdays result are fairly upbeat.

What appears to putting more people off than anything else is having to listen to small groups and individuals who seem to think we should be walking every match and are on the players/managers back, moaning, booing or shouting crap at the slightest thing.

[jaggy]

I think Caley D even you who is eternally optomistic and I think very balanced on most of your posts, cannot blame a small number of ill informed negative comments from fans on declining numbers, but must surely agree the performance on the park is the major reason. It's a catch 22 I know, but real none the less.

[+DoofersDad]

There is much which Butcher has done which I disagree with and one or two things he continues to do which bemuse me. But at the end of the day it is results on the park and the quality of football which determine whether the manager is doing a good job.

He took over when we were cast adrift at the bottom of the SPL and whilst we just failed to stay up we ended up running away with the SFL title the following year in some style. Last year was difficult for reasons which are well known and which I won't repeat. We can certainly hope that this season we won't be ravaged by the kind of injuries we had last season and as this is now very much Butcher's team it will be reasonable to judge him on how we do.

In looking at that we need to consider the very tight financial constraints he is working with. If we get relegated then it would be reasonable to ask questions but to my mind, if we continue with the more enerprising style of football he has started this season with, then anything between 9th and 11th represents a perfectly adequate performance from the management team and anything above that would be good. I know there are things he has done which have angered many and he hasn't exactly set the heather on fire but based on results to date, there is really no justification for questioning his position.

Could somebody else do the job better? Probably - several of them are on this forum, apparently - but it is simply not going to happen. Even if we stay winless till Christmas the Board could not afford the compensation. So like it or not, Terry is staying and there is nothing to do but get behind whichever team he picks - even if you could have picked a better one.

[Renegade]

I think it's possible for people to go from being "the man for the job" to no longer being "the man for the job". Is Butcher still the man for the job? Sadly I believe the answer is no. I don't like the way the club is heading, I don't like the decisions he's made in regards to personnel, many of his signings have been poor, many of his tactics are poor and I don't think the way he is behind the scenes is always the way to go - which I believe is quite different from his media persona.

In saying that, if he was to resign today, who would replace him? The regular names both on here and in the media which would be trotted out would be the likes of John Robertson, Donald Park, Charlie Christie and Duncan Shearer. I wouldn't be surprised to see a number of lower league managers named come out probably with Jim Duffy being the most prominent, as well as people such as Alan Moore of Morton. The latter I believe would do a good job, but could the club afford the compensation unless there's some clause in his contract? Probably not.

Maurice Malpas would probably the most likely to get it, both for saving money and the fact he knows the squad. That though, is a thought that should strike fear into any fan. His record as a manager in his own right is quite simply atrocious and with him at the ICT helm, I'd fear the very likely to scenario of a first class ticket to Division One.

The only other option would be to go down the foreign route and go for a more left field, Ivan Golac type character. This could well be a great success or a major disaster if it's not done right and any foreign managers with SPL experience who are available right now, such as Paulo Sergio would be well out ICT's price range.

To quote Jerry Garcia of The Grateful Dead, "when one is made to pick the lesser of two evils, it means they're still picking evil" and I feel in this case this well the reality. Terry Butcher is not perfect, in fact he is anything but, and the day (maybe sooner than some care to believe) will come where he will leave this club for the final time. But he's the only choice we have for now.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Renegade

[Proctor]

I too am worried about the way ICT is heading. There seems to be no long term plan for the club. Not all of these can be traced to Butcher but some of them possibly go above his head.

For the second season running we have seen a mass exodus in players. Several of whom were stalwarts at the club and are now doing the job at a decent level. The replacements have been poor, unproven players with a history of injuries who have been punted from club to club. Nobody really knows why some of the players left but such a large proportion of our squad leaving is quite worrying.

I disagree with the clubs currant transfer policy of looking for players from the lower realms of English football. I think that if anyone thinks these boys are going to stay at the club long term they are slightly delusional. The players we sign seem to have only come to the club to be put in the shop window. If the team lose and have a bad game, it’s just one less chance for them to earn a move away.

I do not believe for a second that all Scottish players are “too expensive”. I am not asking that we sign Steven Fletcher but I think we should be looking at the Scottish lower leagues. You only need to watch Sevco’s games in the SFL3 to see that there are some decent players in their opposition who I feel would be as cheap and more likely to stay with us. How can the club expect fans to care about a team full of strangers who don’t seem to show heart? I felt that this was evident on Saturday when we were four nil down and didn’t seem to care. Unemployment in football is at a high level at the moment and other SPL clubs like St Johnstone, Dundee and Ross County are looking at players like Derek Riordan, Colin Nish etc.

We can’t even use the line that we are a “selling club” because we are not selling our players. We are simply allowing them to leave on Bosmans. We got a bit of money for Lee Cox but other than that Rooney and Hayes, our two best players since Butcher became manager (I know Brewster signed the former) left for free. Sides like Falkirk and Dundee United seem to have created a conveyer belt of players who do their bit for the team before being sold to other clubs earning some money. This is such a necessity for clubs in Scotland these days and it is one we are missing out on.

I disagree with some of Butcher’s tactics. The way Shane Sutherland is being played is unfair on a young player. The quality of football on show has been pretty poor for a while; there is nothing more frustrating than seeing the ball being hoofed aimlessly up the park or seeing players coming on with three minutes left in a game. He always tries to put a positive spin on poor performances but there is only so much of this I can stomach.

What worries me is if we find ourselves at the bottom of the league at Christmas as we were to get rid of Butcher, a new manager won’t be able to bring in players to strengthen the squad. Butcher was able to bring in Odhiambo, Foran etc. Can we afford the compensation? Are him and Mo earning more than previous managers?

In the past 18 months we have had little to get excited about, a mass exodus of players and poor performance in cup competitions. If we lose against Arbroath I think my feelings of hopelessness concerning ICT will get worse.

I said in the Celtic match day thread that I was beginning to become disillusioned with the club in a way similar to Brewster’s final days. Given the drop in season ticket sales I’m not the only one. I think a change in management may give us a shot in the arm but as long as Butcher is there I will support him and wish him the best of luck, after all he is the man in charge.

[starchief]

We can’t even use the line that we are a “selling club” because we are not selling our players. We are simply allowing them to leave on Bosmans. We got a bit of money for Lee Cox but other than that Rooney and Hayes, our two best players since Butcher became manager (I know Brewster signed the former) left for free. Sides like Falkirk and Dundee United seem to have created a conveyer belt of players who do their bit for the team before being sold to other clubs earning some money. This is such a necessity for clubs in Scotland these days and it is one we are missing out on.

I think this is caution by the board. I used to think they were being over-cautious, now I'm not so sure. Given that Hayes left for Aberdeen, I'm really not too sure we would have had a bid in for him. And the way football is going, perhaps this is the only way to make sure we can survive is to plan one year ahead on the basis of what we know for that season.

He always tries to put a positive spin on poor performances but there is only so much of this I can stomach.

Most managers do that. See Sir Alex and Wenger as examples of this. It does get frustrating but it's probably the right idea.

What worries me is if we find ourselves at the bottom of the league at Christmas as we were to get rid of Butcher, a new manager won’t be able to bring in players to strengthen the squad. Butcher was able to bring in Odhiambo, Foran etc. Can we afford the compensation? Are him and Mo earning more than previous managers?

So you want Butcher sacked in case we're bottom? Perhaps we should extend his contract in case we're in the top six. We've not been threatened by relegation in either season we've been back in the SPL. In fact, given how close we got to the top six, the latter seems more likely. How about we judge Butcher on what the results turn out to be, not what the results could be?

I think a change in management may give us a shot in the arm but as long as Butcher is there I will support him and wish him the best of luck, after all he is the man in charge.

Maybe it's because I've been in charge of people's careers that I just take hiring'n'firing that bit more seriously. Butcher's never been my #1 man for the job but I'll wait until someone fails until I call for their head.

[Proctor]

We can’t even use the line that we are a “selling club” because we are not selling our players. We are simply allowing them to leave on Bosmans. We got a bit of money for Lee Cox but other than that Rooney and Hayes, our two best players since Butcher became manager (I know Brewster signed the former) left for free. Sides like Falkirk and Dundee United seem to have created a conveyer belt of players who do their bit for the team before being sold to other clubs earning some money. This is such a necessity for clubs in Scotland these days and it is one we are missing out on.

I think this is caution by the board. I used to think they were being over-cautious, now I'm not so sure. Given that Hayes left for Aberdeen, I'm really not too sure we would have had a bid in for him. And the way football is going, perhaps this is the only way to make sure we can survive is to plan one year ahead on the basis of what we know for that season.

He always tries to put a positive spin on poor performances but there is only so much of this I can stomach.

Most managers do that. See Sir Alex and Wenger as examples of this. It does get frustrating but it's probably the right idea.

What worries me is if we find ourselves at the bottom of the league at Christmas as we were to get rid of Butcher, a new manager won’t be able to bring in players to strengthen the squad. Butcher was able to bring in Odhiambo, Foran etc. Can we afford the compensation? Are him and Mo earning more than previous managers?

So you want Butcher sacked in case we're bottom? Perhaps we should extend his contract in case we're in the top six. We've not been threatened by relegation in either season we've been back in the SPL. In fact, given how close we got to the top six, the latter seems more likely. How about we judge Butcher on what the results turn out to be, not what the results could be?

I think a change in management may give us a shot in the arm but as long as Butcher is there I will support him and wish him the best of luck, after all he is the man in charge.

Maybe it's because I've been in charge of people's careers that I just take hiring'n'firing that bit more seriously. Butcher's never been my #1 man for the job but I'll wait until someone fails until I call for their head.

I am not suggesting that Butcher should be sacked. I am pointing out that if things are going badly at that time it would be difficult for another manager to come in and make an impact the way that Butcher did. When he first arrived in 2009 the team were lifted and we added to the sqaud. I never want to see anyone lose their job but in football it is common place. This thread is asking if he is the man for the job, I'm giving my opinion I am not happy and I know others feel the same way but if Butcher is in charge of ICT then I want him to do well.

As I said at the beginning of the post I know not all ICT's problems can be linked to him. I will also add now that we don't know what goes on at boardroom level. I stand by my point about letting players go and how I feel planning more long term is needed.

[CaleyD]

I think Caley D even you who is eternally optomistic and I think very balanced on most of your posts, cannot blame a small number of ill informed negative comments from fans on declining numbers, but must surely agree the performance on the park is the major reason. It's a catch 22 I know, but real none the less.

It certainly doesn't help, and it would be unwise to ignore it when people who have followed ICT through good times and bad, home and away, are telling you that they are about at the end of their tether due to the attitude of fellow fans...as opposed to a poor performance on the park.

It's actually getting much the same way on this forum...I no longer enjoy visiting here, it's become a chore and if not for the fact that I have a stake in it then I'd be a far less regular visitor. Not because of the football, but because of a small but hugely disruptive minority who do nothing whatsoever to give ICT, the fans, the club or anything a lift.

So much so that they have become a part of the overall problem.

[Proctor]

I think Caley D even you who is eternally optomistic and I think very balanced on most of your posts, cannot blame a small number of ill informed negative comments from fans on declining numbers, but must surely agree the performance on the park is the major reason. It's a catch 22 I know, but real none the less.

It certainly doesn't help, and it would be unwise to ignore it when people who have followed ICT through good times and bad, home and away, are telling you that they are about at the end of their tether due to the attitude of fellow fans...as opposed to a poor performance on the park.

It's actually getting much the same way on this forum...I no longer enjoy visiting here, it's become a chore and if not for the fact that I have a stake in it then I'd be a far less regular visitor. Not because of the football, but because of a small but hugely disruptive minority who do nothing whatsoever to give ICT, the fans, the club or anything a lift.

So much so that they have become a part of the overall problem.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I really think we as a clud need something to give us a boost and to increase optimism. However it would be unwise to ignore concerns of some fans. If you disagree with them or find them unfounded then the forum is the place to discuss them. Heres hoping we can do well against Arbroath, go on a good cup run and bring some optimism back.

[NoIInTeam]

Not too sure where the pessimism has suddenly came from. The negativity of some of the supporters is creating a poor atmosphere at home games. The anti Butcher brigade on this site and on match days are the poison in the club at the moment. The constructive criticisms of others, and I will include IHE in this group, are justified as they really seem to have the club at heart with no hidden agenda.

There are not so hidden agendas around which will always be here until we are back in the Highland League with Charlie Christie at the helm. Is Butcher the right man for the job? Well this season is a big one for him and Maurice and I suppose we judge at the end of it. He is a passionate man who cares for the club but is only a caretaker of the role until the next well paid victim. We are a disfunctional family at the moment on the terraces and I honestly can't see how this can be repaired, certainly this season anyway.

[caleyboy]

Maybe people should look above Butcher for the problems we are facing.

[Proctor]

Maybe people should look above Butcher for the problems we are facing.

I agree. While I have stated points above relating to Butcher, most of them could be classed as above him. I think we should be thinking about the club as a whole and its future.

[starchief]

Maybe people should look above Butcher for the problems we are facing.

I agree. While I have stated points above relating to Butcher, most of them could be classed as above him. I think we should be thinking about the club as a whole and its future.

I agree too. And I don't mean the Board. They have a tough job. It's the whole Scottish system. The finances are too diluted at the bottom and too concentrated at the top. Rangers shouldn't be the reason for reorganisation but it seems to have shifted to be the reason for not reorganising now. That's a step too far.

As old Edwyn once sang, we need to rip it up and start again. But this is probably off-topic (but on conversation).

[Proctor]

Maybe people should look above Butcher for the problems we are facing.

I agree. While I have stated points above relating to Butcher, most of them could be classed as above him. I think we should be thinking about the club as a whole and its future.

I agree too. And I don't mean the Board. They have a tough job. It's the whole Scottish system. The finances are too diluted at the bottom and too concentrated at the top. Rangers shouldn't be the reason for reorganisation but it seems to have shifted to be the reason for not reorganising now. That's a step too far.

As old Edwyn once sang, we need to rip it up and start again. But this is probably off-topic (but on conversation).

We would be so short sighted in this country not to reconstruct just to spite The Rangers. If them having the oppertunity of getting back to the top flight a season early is an unfortunate bi-product of reconstruction then so be it. The system needs a total overhaul and one thing our chairman has shown is a desire for change. Its up to him and other chairman in Scottish football to make it happen!

Edited August 27, 2012 by Proctor

[bdu98196]

I dont understand the 'fans' on here, while everyone is entitled to an opinion, what is excpected from TB? Seems he can do nothing right for some, what has to be achieved for him to be acknowledged as doing a good/stable job?

Attacking fancy flowing football - sadly we dont have the players for this and if we do try it we will probably loose more games than we do right now. Better to play to the strengths we have and try win points and get the first only aim of the season SPL safety sorted.

Finishing Top 6 - No other ICT manager (with bigger budgets) have done this, with the SPL as tight between most teams with a good run and being injury free ICT have an equal chance of finishing here as they do bottom - just like 6 or 7 others.

Win a Cup - Again as above no other manager has done this or reached a final, but I believe this is where we need to try harder, over the last few years we havent done overly well and if the likes of Killie, County, Gretna, Hibs can make finals we can too.

If only some people would stop looking back and dreaming of Robbo, 10CC, Stevie P, Granty, Tokely, Wyness etc etc - these days are past, we have to move forwards and evolve if we didnt the team would be full of washed up players and we would be moving backwards. If experienced players move on because they get offered more cash elsewhere or longer deals then we just have to accept it, not all of this is TB's fault, the board also have a part to play - as a club we have to 'cut our cloth accordingly'.

[TopSix]

From the matches I've attended so far this season - Coventry, Kilmarnock, Hearts and the Celtic match, I think we're playing some good stuff. In places it's great stuff. The Celtic match was an exception - it was clear the players were not prepared for it.

I'm really hoping we're just seeing a period of transition in terms of the playing staff at the moment. I'd really like to see the likes of Whyte, Polworth and Christie more involved in the first team.

[gordieict]

I think Caley D even you who is eternally optomistic and I think very balanced on most of your posts, cannot blame a small number of ill informed negative comments from fans on declining numbers, but must surely agree the performance on the park is the major reason. It's a catch 22 I know, but real none the less.

It certainly doesn't help, and it would be unwise to ignore it when people who have followed ICT through good times and bad, home and away, are telling you that they are about at the end of their tether due to the attitude of fellow fans...as opposed to a poor performance on the park.

It's actually getting much the same way on this forum...I no longer enjoy visiting here, it's become a chore and if not for the fact that I have a stake in it then I'd be a far less regular visitor. Not because of the football, but because of a small but hugely disruptive minority who do nothing whatsoever to give ICT, the fans, the club or anything a lift.

So much so that they have become a part of the overall problem.

So what do you feel has changed with the fans attitude from previous seasons and if there has been a change what has brought that about. We are losing fans not only because of fan's attitude so something has to change. I agree that there is to much negativity after 4 games into the season where our one loss has been to Celtic, I am worried myself and I must admit to having some doubts about Butcher but in no way am I calling for his head, I am hopeful that he will get it right this season.

[Renegade]

Attacking fancy flowing football - sadly we dont have the players for this and if we do try it we will probably loose more games than we do right now. Better to play to the strengths we have and try win points and get the first only aim of the season SPL safety sorted.

What rubbish. Players like Ross, the Shinnie's, McKay, Morrison, Pepper, Doran, even Draper, Foran and Sutherland could be great players in an attacking team. Saying "we don't have the players" is nonsense and saying "we'll lose more games" is also incorrect. Matches are there to be won and playing on the attack will be more likely to turn draws into wins. Remember, it's better to have one exciting win and two exciting defeats than three boring draws.

[+bughtmaster]

Well the Doom and Gloom Brigade are having a whale of a time on this forum,God knows what it will be like if we ever lose another game.

It would seem we have the worst set of players, the worst manager.the worst assistant manager,the worst board of directors, the worst Chairman, the worst stewards, Who next do they want to have a go at The grounds staff maybe.

Come on Guys take stock of yourselves you will be closing down this forum next by your ranting and raving.

Are you all so good at your own jobs, hobbies etc. Are you so perfect in your own lives that it gives you the right to judge others so harshly.

GET BEHIND THE TEAM NOT ON TOP OF IT. We have as good an outfit as we can afford and they are doing very well so far this season BARRING ONE GLITCH. Give them a chance will you.

[gordieict]

Well the Doom and Gloom Brigade are having a whale of a time on this forum,God knows what it will be like if we ever lose another game.

It would seem we have the worst set of players, the worst manager.the worst assistant manager,the worst board of directors, the worst Chairman, the worst stewards, Who next do they want to have a go at The grounds staff maybe.

Come on Guys take stock of yourselves you will be closing down this forum next by your ranting and raving.

Are you all so good at your own jobs, hobbies etc. Are you so perfect in your own lives that it gives you the right to judge others so harshly.

GET BEHIND THE TEAM NOT ON TOP OF IT. We have as good an outfit as we can afford and they are doing very well so far this season BARRING ONE GLITCH. Give them a chance will you.

=

Come on Guys take stock of yourselves you will be closing down this forum next by your ranting and raving.

Are you all so good at your own jobs, hobbies etc. Are you so perfect in your own lives that it gives you the right to judge others so harshly.

While I might agree there is to much negativity, fans pay their hard earned cash to watch the team and if they are not satisfied are entitled to express their opinion, do you think this is exclusively an ICT problem? fans of every club moan.

The biggest mystery is how it was deemed acceptable by many to have a go at Brewster but having a go at Butcher is frowned upon.