Is Butcher the Man for the Job?

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

The positive in all of this is that there is a growing public awareness of the narcisstic aspect of TB's personality and the "blind devotion" of MM. I cannot believe that TB can continue to behave and communicate at the same level for much longer. He simply has to shackle some of the inner defence mechanisms and become a manager who rules the dressing room - and apparently the Board - with respect and not fear. One of the first things that he could do for "self protecton" purposes would be to encourage MM to take on a management position at a lesser club and employ a coach who has a background akin to fitness, training schedules and attack minded - I would love to see us go for a foreign coach. Butcher could then take a step froward in respect of media involvement and leave the tactics to another. From the narcisstic perspective that would allow him some more breathing space and allow him to only minimally restrain his automatic behaviours.

I actually do believe that there is a lot of potential in the current crop of players. But many of them are raw and relatively inexperienced at the level that they are now competing at. In many ways the "experience" of this season may actually pay dividends next year as they should be a considerably wiser bunch. BUT they need to be coached positively, some need to get fitter, many need to play for the badge as well as the wage and TB really needs to instill the long missing ingredient of "togetherness" which can only really be accomplished by adhering to a more attack minded "system", start looking at playing the "easy pass" instead of the hoof - players need to learn how to make space when they do not have the ball and TB needs to have his first X1 - on merit - firmly embedded in his head and he needs to have specific personnel who can move comfortably in to that role and/or system.

The one "ace" that we may have up our sleeve is that TB evidently enjoys the Highland life style and has a long contract. So what we also needs is an individual with the nous and the strength to take TB aside, give it to him straight in an almost ultimatum "style" and set "targets" for next season now - and I dont mean Top Six - I refer to points at home, points away, goals etc., etc. - and adhere to it.

Again I have been waiting all season to see that we shimmer of change in TB's attitude and self rating. The narcssism is firmly embedded and is not aided by what would appear to be gutless line management. I really admire TB in many respects but if I was the Chairman he would'nt be getting off with the control influence that he clearly has at the present time.

[starchief]

One thing I will say though, when Butcher signed a new deal in 2009 I said it would all end in tears. I see no reason why in the end I won't be proved correct.

You were against Butcher from the very start though. Butcher achieved wonderful things at ICT in the last two seasons. Where's the credit for that? You will eventually be proved right as most managers stumble at some time - even Brian Clough detractors were eventually proved right.

MissICT seemingly gone and now Luke? Perhaps neither were the most incisive of posters but I welcome their unbridled support for the club amidst many men of misery. A breath of fresh air.

[Sorted]

Nothing beats the unconditional love or blind faith exhibited by those who see no wrong in anything the Messiah (aka Terry Butcher aka A Very Naughty Boy!) does.

Just because other chose not to walk the path of righteousness with blinkers and a halo, seeing no wrong, hearing no wrong and not deviating from the scriptures............does not make them any less of a follower merely more prone to lapses!

Now back in the real world..........

This is a forum for debate not a propaganda machine. And whilst we're debating - Can you give me examples in support of 'Butcher achieved wonderful things at ICT in the last two seasons'? I will give him great credit for bringing the team back up straight away after they were relegated by Brewster and him (remember he dropped our star keeper in crucial games at the end of the season with disastrous consequences). His signing of Hayes looks a fantastic move and Cox looked decent. Davis didn't want to be here, Shinnie has great potential and as for the rest of them...............................the jury is out on some but most are already convicted!

The comparison with the late great Brian Clough is insulting to his memory. Irrespective of the level, Clough's teams played football. Real good, decent football with a solid edge. Kenny Shiels can do it at Kilmarnock and did it at Tranmere as a coach. TB never has and never will. He is old school. Shout, bawl, run, kick. That is why he has ended up here.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Sorted

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Dont think that Luke Sywalker will bow out to Mr Vader. I expect the wee man to come back with a Terry Butcher illuminated light sabre and flash it around like Tade at TCS. If my name aint Chewbacca. But as fer wee Princess Leia I am afraid that she has the bravery of a female Wookie so this is a challenge.

And they said to Renegade, “Do you hear what these are saying?” And IHE said to them, “Yes; have you never read, “‘Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies you have prepared praise’?”

[starchief]

Can you give me examples in support of 'Butcher achieved wonderful things at ICT in the last two seasons'?

2 seasons ago: promotion at the first time of asking with an amazing run

1 season ago: 7th place officially, with a points total that would take us to 5th in the table.

[Sorted]

I think 7th place was excellent, It doesn't take us to 5th however, as we didn't qualify for the top half of the league and were playing teams dubbed, rightly so, lesser. Nonetheless, it was a a great result.

The promotion is being put in context by RCFC this season and can no longer be viewed as exceptional or amazing. Taking the team who just managed to avoid relegation from the same league to the title the following season, is a far greater achievement that taking the relegated team from the top league straight back up.

How about analysing his transfer market activity (remember every in and out without transfer fee costs the club money)?

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

DOH - Unbeaten away from home for a whole calendar year - Caley Away with Terry and Mo was a mighty fine journey - and when we were playing "football".

I hate to say it but Tinkerville in the SPL is exceptional and amazing for Highland football - given the historical and political perspectives.

[12th Man]

We are playing better football now than previous seasons its just our strikers cant score and that shows in results, I dont want a revolving door for players at the end of every season either and would rather keep our strikers but probably more to play along side someone else/bench.

I didnt make the game on Wednesday and had a pint in the Ormond bar instead as was working away but their local team has Sheridan, Sanfrancisco Sanzada and now Riordan up front.

Whats important is for us is to play the best players, for the style of our play and favoritism impedes that. An ex Dons player was asking me about OTJ, regarding the Aberdeen match and was full of praise for the player. If we were to pick our best team for next season OTJ would be there, A Shinnie would be in front, Hayes on the right, Tade or possibly another, on the left wing and a decent striker up front which only leaves one more place in midfield to play alongside OTJ and we have 2 candidates

Just pick the best players for the right positions because they are the best. Stratford and Eagle weakened the morale of the club in the 1st div because they were picked above others, the same applies today. whether its getting picked or wearing an armband they have to earn it.

[Renegade]

You were against Butcher from the very start though. Butcher achieved wonderful things at ICT in the last two seasons. Where's the credit for that? You will eventually be proved right as most managers stumble at some time - even Brian Clough detractors were eventually proved right.

Not at all. If you look back at the time, Butcher was the man I wanted to replace Brewster. Changed days now.

The Brian Clough analogy is a non-starter. All Butcher's won is a First Division trophy - Clough won two European Cups amongst many many others. He also hated the long ball game - was it not him who said that "if the game was supposed to be played in the clouds, there'd be grass up there"? Butcher's a long ball manager and he's done it essentially everywhere he's gone.

And by the way, anyone who says that Butcher wasn't given enough time at Sydney and Brentford are talking nonsense. At Sydney, Butcher was described as having "imperial arrogance" and didn't exactly endear himself to the Australian media, fans or players with some of him his comments. Sydney's attendances fell drastically under Butcher - something many blamed on Butcher's long ball game. When it failed, he was sacked.

Brentford was a disaster. The equivalent of saying he should have been given more time there is the same as saying Brewster should have been given more time at Dundee United!

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

"Imperial arrogance" - is that actually a direct quote ?

[Renegade]

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=34550129690

[starchief]

Am I being deliberately mis-interpreted over Clough? My point was that saying a couple of years ago that Butcher wasn't the man for the job because he'll eventually hit the buffers, doesn't mean that aspersion was correct. If someone had said of Clough "he's no use - bet he gets us relegated", then they are only proven right if they choose to ignore all the success he had in between.

I wasn't comparing success or styles of play. Simply, that you can't say what's happened at the end of a manager's reign is the be all and end all. Clough was a far better manager than virtually every one else in the game (actually, in my opinion, I'd remove that virtually). But he eventually went on the decline and got them relelgated. That doesn't prove someone who predicted that "it would all end in tears" in 1975 was correct.

Butcher took us up at the first time of asking, had a year-long undefeated away run, amassed a better-than-expected points total in the first season back up, putting to shame a lot better funded teams. I believe, with a proven goalscorer and better luck with injuries, we would be higher up the table (including that Hibs match). As it is, I feel there is no chance of relegation and we will probably finish higher up than Hibs and potentially Aberdeen. Both teams with much bigger budgets than us.

I'm not saying I agree with all his tactics (I don't - I think a more balanced counter-attacking approach would be best) but based on the above, Butcher deserves another season.

[bdu98196]

Butcher deserves another season.

One of the most sensible points made on this thread for me.

Who would people like to see replace TB, who do they honestly think would do a better job and what are the expectations (and please lets not see the usual names of Robbo, CC or even Stevie Paterson - its time to let the past be closed these guys have had their chance).

For me its SPL survival every year and 1 or 2 good cup runs, based on the size of club and poor attendances can anyone really expect more?

Is it fair to assume many turned on TB last summer when Grant left? Perhaps the bigger picture needs looked at and that TB is trying to reinvent a team with more youth to move forward - yes stalwarts have left but these players couldnt go on forever. This is why he needs another season to finish his 'rebuild' if in 12 months we dont see improvements and having the same discussions then call for his head.

[Alex MacLeod]

Just realised Butcher is the longest serving of all the current SPL managers.

[+DoofersDad]

Just realised Butcher is the longest serving of all the current SPL managers.

That probably says more about Scottish football than it does about Terry Butcher.

[Tichy_Blacks_Back]

Just realised Butcher is the longest serving of all the current SPL managers.

Interesting piece of trivia that. So of those who has won the most trophies in their time as manager of their current clubs?

[ICTPaisley]

Just realised Butcher is the longest serving of all the current SPL managers.

Interesting piece of trivia that. So of those who has won the most trophies in their time as manager of their current clubs?

Neil Lennon has 2 cups

[Alex MacLeod]

Just realised Butcher is the longest serving of all the current SPL managers.

Interesting piece of trivia that. So of those who has won the most trophies in their time as manager of their current clubs?

Neil Lennon has 2 cups

Which two? From what I can see:

Neil Lennon ------- Scottish Cup

Peter Houston --- Scottish Cup

Terry Butcher ---- 1st Division Trophy

[ICTPaisley]

Just realised Butcher is the longest serving of all the current SPL managers.

Interesting piece of trivia that. So of those who has won the most trophies in their time as manager of their current clubs?

Neil Lennon has 2 cups

Which two? From what I can see:

Neil Lennon ------- Scottish Cup

Peter Houston --- Scottish Cup

Terry Butcher ---- 1st Division Trophy

My mistake, thought Celtic won the league cup last year. He's going to have a league next week though.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Butcher deserves another season.

Is it fair to assume many turned on TB last summer when Grant left? Perhaps the bigger picture needs looked at and that TB is trying to reinvent a team with more youth to move forward - yes stalwarts have left but these players couldnt go on forever. This is why he needs another season to finish his 'rebuild' if in 12 months we dont see improvements and having the same discussions then call for his head.

I suspect that the Granty situation is at the back of the minds of some but, as you stressed, the stalwarts were at the end of their SPL journeys and we have to move on and we have introduced youngsters. The manner of Grant's "disposal" is what irks many and is testimony to TB's "control" and influence.

I agree that he is the man fer the job but as I have alluded to before he has to modify his own personna, become more allied to the fans and players but I really do feel that he is lacking in the tactical sense and I would love to have an addition of fresh positive coaching for the first team - preferably in companionship with a more "open" TB.

We do have the potential to improve next season - we have had this season - Leadership has been lacking.

[Huisdean]

I think your 100% correct IHE. TB has been good for the club in several ways especially in raising the profile of ICT and being an effective media performer. I also think he deserves another season but he has to learn from his mistakes and try to see "the bigger picture". The idea of another coach, with a strong personality needed I think, may well be the solution with MM moving on.

IHE for coach anyone!!

[CaleyD]

Surely being able to "control and influence" are the basic requirements for any manager?

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Surely being able to "control and influence" are the basic requirements for any manager?

Assertively and appreciatively with a tinge or a "feel" of democracy, coupled with open communication skills.

[Alex MacLeod]

I would tend to disagree with you there CD. Control and Influence is no more than a disguise for bullying. What a good manager / leader needs is Integrity, communication skills, vision, ability to build relationships, ability to influence, develop teamwork, good decision making and planning skills, ability to coach and develop, to delegate responsibility, to trust and to be trusted but most of all to be adaptable.

Adaptibility is about realising that things are not going to plan and taking action to sort it. Its about embracing change and being flexible to whats required and treating that as new opportunity. That, for me, is where Butcher is lacking. When things are going wrong he doesn't sieze the opportunity and make change to get it right. Instead he appears to bully his way through things and ends up getting the wrong reactions. He constantly jumps on the defensive, be it comments from the crowd or press, and will never admit that maybe its he who needs to change.

If Terry could sort that aspect of himself I believe he would have more successes.

[absent friend]

I would tend to disagree with you there CD. Control and Influence is no more than a disguise for bullying. What a good manager / leader needs is Integrity, communication skills, vision, ability to build relationships, ability to influence, develop teamwork, good decision making and planning skills, ability to coach and develop, to delegate responsibility, to trust and to be trusted but most of all to be adaptable.

Adaptibility is about realising that things are not going to plan and taking action to sort it. Its about embracing change and being flexible to whats required and treating that as new opportunity. That, for me, is where Butcher is lacking. When things are going wrong he doesn't sieze the opportunity and make change to get it right. Instead he appears to bully his way through things and ends up getting the wrong reactions. He constantly jumps on the defensive, be it comments from the crowd or press, and will never admit that maybe its he who needs to change.

If Terry could sort that aspect of himself I believe he would have more successes.

Alex, I can imagine Fergie reading your above thoughts on management and scratching his head, followed by (Artistic licence) "Beckam, get your arse in here ... you're for off son. Too big for your boots and that wife of yours gives me the 'heebie gebbies'! Bye!"

Each to their own when managing as each person is different - thank God!