ICT's youth policy criticised

[Yngwie]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/33279795

Apparently we are overrun with non-Scottish journeymen. Thoughts?

 

[CaleyD]

Strange that the guy who came up with the system seems to have totally ignored the fact that ICTFC do not have access to the performance schools they are ploughing all the money in to...!!!

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_football.cfm?page=2660

[Council Juice]

It's all well and good looking to criticise the club for not being a successful team full of Inverness kids. In an ideal world that would be the case.

But they neglect the fact that we have none of the Performance schools anywhere near Inverness. ICT have to compete with bigger clubs for young talent in our area. When the talent is there we generally aren't too shy at giving them a go. I wouldn't say we're the best at it. Likes of Dun Utd, Hibs, Heart etc have fairly well funded systems we couldn't match.
Some clubs have been reduced to using only kids. Killie, Well and such, at times.
Nick Ross, Christie, Polworth, Shinnie all came through our youth system and were first team squad member last term.

I would find it hard to class many of the rest of our players as journeymen. Most are young players from other clubs looking to relaunch their career. Meekings, Devine, Doran were all youngsters released by their clubs.
And even the more established signings like Watkins, Mckay, Williams, and Tansey were all relatively young when signing and trying to relaunch their careers.

It just seems like a bit of a ill informed statement without looking at the facts. Hey we won the cup. Are we that bothered?

[FoolPhysio]

I found this article to be totally distasteful for two reasons.

First, as already pointed out by the other posters, is that geographical location has made it more difficult for Inverness to tap into any networks being set up.  Develop the local youngsters and blood them . . . how?  Look at our youth teams and the leagues they play in.  Are they not full of local youngsters?  Why look solely at the first team?

Second, why were we singled out?  It even notes that we had a higher percentage than the previous cup holders.  Surely it should be looking at the current League / League Cup holders as after all, are they not the standard we are all supposed to be striving for?

The anti-Sneck lobby are making sure we know they haven't forgotten us.  GOOD.  In response to the report author - I continue to cheer on my team, the CURRENT Scottish Cup holders, as they compete on the unbalanced playing field of Scottish football by trying to stay within their budget and building the best teams they can with the resources to hand, be they home-grown or bought in.

We should be being praised for the number of local lads we have developed over the years that have gone on to achieve - not be criticised.  If anything, we are an exemplar.

In short, get stuffed Alistair Gray.  Go ask Celtic what they intend to do about it.

Edited June 26, 2015 by FoolPhysio

[bdu98196]

Given the position of Gray, I feel its picking on an easy target. We are a small club with 21 years existance, small fanbase and limited funds to invest in youth but easy to slate as we are provincial and the central belt biased media will always back this along with the majority of narrow minded fans. Where is the mention of Celtic & Rangers both clubs who have invested in multi million pound facilities for training and yoth development yet produce nothing in terms of proportion of success V's investment - preferring to fill their teams with overpaid journeymen or European imports of varying levels of quality. Even County for their facilities produce little first team youth players, so its not just ICT, although even compared to Killie, Hearts, Hibs, D Utd we are lagging behind.

Perhaps the likes of Gray and the SFA should do more to help clubs invest and gather talent, put caps or limits stopping bigger clubs poaching local talent at the expense of the smaller teams, take the disproportionate wealth distribution and even it up so all clubs can have the same basis for youth investment. Instead they use clubs like ourselves as a platform to gain some publicity and become a talking point - as cup winners we become an easy target and he knew publicity would follow.

[+Wanderer]

As a contributor pointed out on P&B, the ICT supporters will have ample time to contemplate this report on their flights to Romania.

Not a lot to view here...moving along... 

[Mithrandir]

For someone linked to the sfa to call good professionals like ours "not the best people" and "journeyman" is incredibly disrespectful and shows an embarrassing lack of knowledge about Scottish football that he is trying to fix.

Also asking clubs to play teams full of youths is a huge financial risk for clubs who could be relegated and risking relegation to help the national team is clearly not a viable business plan.

[+HawkeyeTheGnu]

When the national team start rewarding our players performances by picking them for the national team, I might start listening to this guff.

[+bughtmaster]

Two great posts FoolPhysio and bdu98196 you put across the points I would have made.

Disregard the GrEy man folks.....theme tune for season Jealousy!

[Hiro]

To be fair to the Beeb at least a part of their article alludes to the fact that some of what Mr Gray is saying is nonsense. 

'But, although that were more than the seven in St Johnstone's 2014 Cup-winning team, five of Caley Thistle's Scots came through their own youth ranks compared to one - Stevie May - in the Saints squad. '

The amount of misinformation from this tool Gray is quite staggering.  He clearly doesn't understand football because 'journeymen of poorer quality' do not finish 3rd and win the Scottish cup.  Young hungry players from England who have grasped their opportunity at a higher level finish 3rd and win the Scottish cup.

 

[ammac]

I am flabbergasted !

Who is the current Scotland's football writers young player of the year and also nominated for PFA young player of the year ?

Just proves again that the SFA are not fit to run our national game.

It is not a numbers game, it about producing the right talent through the youth system to benefit ICT and the Scottish game.

[PerfICT]

This is very misguided criticism. The point is not how many Scottish players teams have, but how many youth development players have made it thorough the system. IIRC, we had 5 products of the ICT youth development system playing in the match against Celtic at the end of the season - I'm not sure any other team could match that (except perhaps DUFC?)

To level the criticism at JH and Latapy is also totally unwarranted - I'm not surprised they refused to comment. The majority of the non-Scottish imports were brought in on TB's watch and have been very successful. What is JH supposed to do - turf them out overnight and replace them with home-grown talent?

I have no doubt Charlie Christie is spitting feathers about this. I have witnessed first hand the youth development system at ICT and it is no better or worse than the majority of other clubs on a very meagre budget. The real story here is that the likes of Clyde have seen fit to entrely ditch their youth development system - now that really could have catastrophic effects!

[caleyboy]

This is only my personal opinion but I have always said that the whole structure of youth programmes is totally wrong. First of all, it seems to be all about grant money from whatever source but to qualify you need teams participating at various levels. That means you need "x" number of players to make up a squad. Unfortunately this will include young boys who will NEVER make the grade but they are made to think they will because they are part of a professional club's setup. Sore on the boy when he is told he is not going to make the next level. Charlie and his team of coaches are no doubt doing a good job with what they have to work with but surely the time has come to concentrate on quality and potential . That would probably mean that we would have fewer teams competing and receive less money from grants etc but so what, our costs would also reduce. There are kids out there with potential so the sooner they get our undivided attention the better and we will see the benefit - eventually!  

[bdu98196]

How many times have we seen in Scottish football that a club does develop a talent and then they leave, which is part of life so accepted. In some (few) cases clubs might get a decent transfer fee - recently DUtd have done ok with this, but other times they get picked up by the OF who refuse to pay the parent clubs valuation, goes to a tribunal and in almost every case the board decide that the development fee paid is insultingly low almost matching the OF valuation. Again keeping the strength and wealth of Scottish football within the duopoloy. I'm not suggesting teams dont develop their own but like any business if you develop a product and invest you should be able to sell that comodity for a fair price, sadly football isnt structured like that and even when systems are in place so it should be then it can be exploited and manipulated at the expense of the small clubs.

[AlexJones]

Would anyone doubt that Stuart Armstrong, Ian Vigurs, Graeme Shinnie, Nick Ross, and Ryan Christie are 5 of the best young players in the Scottish Premiership? Don't forget all the ICT youth products who are currently playing in the lower divisions of the Senior leagues. (Shane Sutherland, Michael Fraser, Gary Wood etc etc)

It's a very odd criticism. Surely ICT, the most successful 'pound for pound' club in Scottish football, are a model of a how a small professional football club should be run. Mr Gray might have preferred that we signed a bunch of young Scottish duds and struggled to survive in the SPL. ICT's fortunes are of no interest to him. It makes no odds to the SFA what division we're playing in. I hope we continue to sign as many Warrens, Meekings, Drapers, Vincents, Tanseys, Dorans, McKays and Ravens as we can and challenge for honours.

[Alex MacLeod]

It really bugs me why we've been singled out. There are three players in the current Celtic squad who came through their youth system. There are quite a few players from Scottish clubs who moved down south. Quality players are being developed. They are just not sticking around. Perhaps Mr Grey needs to look at the reasoning behind players not wanting to stay in Scotland. Perhaps Mr Grey also needs to ask the SFA why they trawl around England looking for players who's granny ate some porrige to make up a national squad rather than give the home grown talent a chance. The best left back in the country has continuously been overlooked in favour of has beens.

[Sneckboy]

I too am puzzled by this 'report'. As Alex has mentioned, above, Celtic are more of a buying-club and have developed fewer first-team squad players than we currently have. It's really only James Forrest and possibly Callum McGregor. I amn't agreeing with their criteria at all - whatever it may be.

I've just looked at the most recent SFA licensing / standards / gradings publication (from 15th June 2015) and notice that Hamilton Accies are apparently also not quite 'up to scratch' with their youth development - which is a joke. They have a renowned, excellent system and have developed some gems in recent years.

Remarkably, the town of Dingwall, with it's population of 5,000 seems no barrier to them having a conveyor-belt of Premiership standard Ross-shire youngsters breaking through...what an utter farce!

For the record, the 'findings':

 

[PerfICT]

This is only my personal opinion but I have always said that the whole structure of youth programmes is totally wrong. First of all, it seems to be all about grant money from whatever source but to qualify you need teams participating at various levels. That means you need "x" number of players to make up a squad. Unfortunately this will include young boys who will NEVER make the grade but they are made to think they will because they are part of a professional club's setup. Sore on the boy when he is told he is not going to make the next level. Charlie and his team of coaches are no doubt doing a good job with what they have to work with but surely the time has come to concentrate on quality and potential . That would probably mean that we would have fewer teams competing and receive less money from grants etc but so what, our costs would also reduce. There are kids out there with potential so the sooner they get our undivided attention the better and we will see the benefit - eventually!  

Caleyboy's points are partly true - in terms of some individuals with no real chance of making it through the system being included at the younger age groups to make up the numbers - but the system he suggests would definitely reduce the number of boys who make the grade. Why? The issue is that the lads all develop at different rates - the concept that the boys who shine at 10 years old will have all the ingredients (dedication, hard work, physical development, staying off the booze, girls and drugs) to make it as a pro is completely flawed. Equally, some of the guys who are small and lack physicality at that age might well develop late and turn out ot be the stars when they catch up. So, yes, there is a terrible attrition rate (~95% don't make it), but the only way to make sure you catch the few is to trawl many IMO.

[CaleyD]

I too am puzzled by this 'report'. As Alex has mentioned, above, Celtic are more of a buying-club and have developed fewer first-team squad players than we currently have. It's really only James Forrest and possibly Callum McGregor. I amn't agreeing with their criteria at all - whatever it may be.

I've just looked at the most recent SFA licensing / standards / gradings publication (from 15th June 2015) and notice that Hamilton Accies are apparently also not quite 'up to scratch' with their youth development - which is a joke. They have a renowned, excellent system and have developed some gems in recent years.

Remarkably, the town of Dingwall, with it's population of 5,000 seems no barrier to them having a conveyor-belt of Premiership standard Ross-shire youngsters breaking through...what an utter farce!

For the record, the 'findings':

 

I'd take those rankings with a pinch of salt as the vast majority of the criteria is for things that have little to do with the success of the youth setup at each club.

[old caley girl]

For someone linked to the sfa to call good professionals like ours "not the best people" and "journeyman" is incredibly disrespectful and shows an embarrassing lack of knowledge about Scottish football that he is trying to fix.

Also asking clubs to play teams full of youths is a huge financial risk for clubs who could be relegated and risking relegation to help the national team is clearly not a viable business plan.

For someone linked to the sfa to call good professionals like ours "not the best people" and "journeyman" is incredibly disrespectful and shows an embarrassing lack of knowledge about Scottish football that he is trying to fix.

Also asking clubs to play teams full of youths is a huge financial risk for clubs who could be relegated and risking relegation to help the national team is clearly not a viable business plan.

Spot on. It's the fact that this has come from an SFA consultant that makes this do distasteful. To call our players journeymen and not very good is disgraceful imho. 

[PerfICT]

I too am puzzled by this 'report'. As Alex has mentioned, above, Celtic are more of a buying-club and have developed fewer first-team squad players than we currently have. It's really only James Forrest and possibly Callum McGregor. I amn't agreeing with their criteria at all - whatever it may be.

I've just looked at the most recent SFA licensing / standards / gradings publication (from 15th June 2015) and notice that Hamilton Accies are apparently also not quite 'up to scratch' with their youth development - which is a joke. They have a renowned, excellent system and have developed some gems in recent years.

Remarkably, the town of Dingwall, with it's population of 5,000 seems no barrier to them having a conveyor-belt of Premiership standard Ross-shire youngsters breaking through...what an utter farce!

For the record, the 'findings':

 

Eh? This is just a load of garbage. Has somebody got silver and gold mixed up? Hamilton Accies have a great youth system and it is fair to say that The Adams Family and their successors have been prime examples of "buying in journeymen of dubious quality" to save their skins over the last 3 seasons.  I hope ICT are taking the SFA to task about this ridiculous mis-representation.

[Alex MacLeod]

Our youth development programme has only a small part to do with the reason for our ranking above. Having just read through the criterea youth development forms only a small part of the overall licence. One of the things that could be instrumental in not attaining gold is our training facilities. I actually think we are not far short of attaining gold. If you fancy a read its here http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resources/documents/ClubLicensing/UEFAClubLicensingRegulations2012.pdf

[finmack]

This report is utter garbage. Why have we been highlighted when you consider the number of foreigners Rangers and Celtic have had over the past twenty + years! It's more sour grapes against us for having taken the Scottish Cup away from the Glasgow mafia.

[lightwelter]

Maybe we're being biased, but there is not doubt that his argument is flawed on many levels:

1) We are outside the central belt, and as mentioned have no access to performance schools. There is no way in hell that we can tempt young players from the central belt to come up to Inverness and play for our academy, and thus we are more or less restricted to players coming from Inverness and some of the surrounding areas. 

2) We have only been a club since 1994. Building a successful academy does not happen over night. It takes finance, building a scouting network, building links with local clubs, hiring/training qualified coaches, building facilities, and not to mention building a reputation as a club that parents want their kids to play for with a view of developing them into professional footballers. 

3) Journeymen who aren't of the highest quality? I don't think there's a single player in our squad that I would label a journeyman, and all-in-all the players we have recruited have been of the highest quality relative to players we have had in the past, have been loyal to the club, and have left a huge legacy at the club. b

4) If I was a 14-15 year old lad from Inverness, I would recognise that in the last few years, Nick Ross (Scotland Under 21's), Graeme Shinnie (Scotland Under 21's and surely a future Scotland international), Liam Polwarth, Calum Ferguson, Grant Munro etc hav gotten through the academy, and you have just as much chance of getting through the academy as with pretty much any other club. 

5) For me, having 5 players in a cup final who have came through academy is not a bad return at all! What club in the SPL actually has more home-grown players than that? 

 

In summary, what a load of pish.

[Harry Chibber]

Who is the current Scotland's football writers young player of the year and also nominated for PFA young player of the year ?

I wish the BBC article had stated this directly under his quote and it would just show exactly how much of **** this guy is.