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Well that didn't take long :laugh: 

ETA: I honestly can't believe we're having this discussion again but regardless, HtG nails it for me. Hughes alone is not to blame for our situation but things went into a downward spiral at the end of his tenure before going into a full on nose dive under Foran / Cameron and this season we've totally stalled.

Edited by RiG

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1 hour ago, RiG said:

Well that didn't take long :laugh: 

ETA: I honestly can't believe we're having this discussion again but regardless, HtG nails it for me. Hughes alone is not to blame for our situation but things went into a downward spiral at the end of his tenure before going into a full on nose dive under Foran / Cameron and this season we've totally stalled.

About a month ago, I’d have agreed we’d stalled this season, but I’m starting to think we are accelerating into the abyss. 

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Hold on chaps....this is only the 2nd league match we played since Falkirk (and lost, I know) on the 27th January.  Before then we had only lost to St Mirren (Champions-elect) or when we had had a man sent off. We've clearly lost some momentum, and I think the Irn Bru farce has been a distraction, but we've also recently been without a key man in Coll Donaldson. I wonder if Baird going has been a surprising factor, but Austin hasn't made much of a mark due to being a bit of a sick note already. Dunfermline are hardly pushovers either. Dundee Utd away will be difficult, but hopefully by the time we get our next home game the pitch will show signs of recovery, and we have a shed load of games at home so a good pitch will suit Doran and Mulraney. We have games in hand over the guys above as well. It might be a tall ask to get into the play-off positions, but I still think there is more than enough to stay above 11th place. After last season, this one was always going to be an interesting one, but Winters gone, Spring is coming keep the faith (even after a ***** midweek loss)    COYC  :ictscarf:

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9 minutes ago, Eagle4Caley said:

Dunfermline are hardly pushovers either.

They had won about 3 games since the end of October. They were in complete and utter freefall.

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1 hour ago, Eagle4Caley said:

 It might be a tall ask to get into the play-off positions, but I still think there is more than enough to stay above 11th place.

You think that having only 10 teams in the division might help us there?  :wink:

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i have completely run out of patience now the club is a shambles from boardroom to team selection. Whats happened to the emergency loan players as promised? there is not one person there who has a clue what to do i have absolutely no enthusiasm to go to cup final as i am expecting a drab, shambolic performance ahead Priority is staying in this league but it wont get any better without the parachute payment next season. If County do get relegated you can be sure Roy will throw the cash at them to get them back up

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3 hours ago, Polo Chick said:

i have absolutely no enthusiasm to go to cup final as i am expecting a drab, shambolic performance ahead Priority is staying in this league but it wont get any better without the parachute payment next season. 

If supporting a team is about winning and glory might I suggest you support one of the top four in the Premier? Real supporters stick with their team through thick and thin and will be at the Cup Final because thats what we do.

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1 hour ago, AncientMariner said:

If supporting a team is about winning and glory might I suggest you support one of the top four in the Premier? Real supporters stick with their team through thick and thin and will be at the Cup Final because thats what we do.

Winning and glory is one thing which can never be guaranteed.

However, I don't think it's unreasonable even for loyal fans to expect some degree of organisation and planning in the boardroom and a degree of commitment on the pitch.

I am unhappy with the state of affairs at our club at the moment. Am  I too a glory hunter who should go and 'support one of the top four in the premier' ?

Edited by Kingsmills
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8 hours ago, HawkeyeTheGnu said:

The decline started as soon as we won the cup pretty much. That heralded the breaking up of a squad largely put together by Butcher. Yes, we didn’t replace quality players, but Hughes has to share part of that blame as he was the one recruiting players. Even if funds was the issue, why sign loads of midfielders when other positions needed attention too? The treatment of Raven was pretty shoddy too. 

As for Hughes style of play - yes it was pleasing to the eye at times in the cup winning season, but in the season he took over we tended to either bore teams to death for a 0-0, or get walloped. In his final season the football was eye-bleedingly bad at times - Dundee at Dens in Feb nearly put me off football for life - and only winning 4 out of 5 after the split put a gloss on the season. 

Since Hughes left, the decision making at the club has ranged from the questionable to the outright laughable.

While I agree that our current situation cannot be laid solely at Hughes’ door, is is at least partially culpable. 

Hawkeye,

I've tried to explain this before on this forum but some just don't see it.

The reason for the heavy defeats in the early days was because JH completely changed the style of play ie out from the back. I remember the horror show against Dundee Utd in the SC where we gifted them a 3 goal lead at home all self inflicted but this was the players trying to adapt to the new way of playing.

Had we not changed we would never have gotten 3rd in the league and won the cup.

In the final season not only had we lost good players we had a horrendous injury list hence the reason for emergency signings and you can only sign what is available at the time according to your budget. The performance against Astra who were no mugs was one of the most mature i have seen from an ICT side and only a goalkeeping error from OFW caused us to lose that match. You may not have liked JH's style but while you have the ball the opposition cannot hurt you which is why we eked out points when we had no right to do so. I don't know why you dismiss winning 4 out of 5 after the split, they all count.

As regards the treatment of Raven, JH clearly believed he could free up wages to invest in one or two players to make the team stronger, whilst I liked DR as a player and a person, every player comes to the end and it is the Manager's prerogative to decide who stays and who goes for the good of the club. Football is a business like any other even if the fans don't appreciate it, so I don't think it was shoddy, it was part of the football business.

Hughes regarded the original budget plus the emergency signings as the budget for the following year, the board would only agree to the original budget, hence JH claimed his budget had been cut and the board claimed the budget had not changed. The sad part is that the system and style that JH inculcated in the squad could have been a successful template for many years to come but it was thrown over by the new inexperienced manager and the rest as they say is history.

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Players don't become rubbish overnight. The margins in this league are small. FWIW I think our recent slump is down to tactical decisions. During our winning run Bell was by far our best attacking player IMO and a reliable goalscorer / defender from the front. He shouldn't be out on the flank, he should be our first choice center forward. Oakley will almost certainly make it (reminiscent of a young Adam Rooney) as a top flight player one day, but he isn't mobile enough to carry a threat as a lone striker. A Bell / Oakley front partnership is our best combination.

At the other end of the park, Ravens departure and subsequent back 4 reshuffle (Warren back in as center half, McKay shunted out to full back) also set us back. Donaldson / McKay were a promising partnership, would go as far as to say they looked like 2 of the best young Scottish center halves in the country during our clean sheet marathon - hard to believe now though. Warren is still a useful squad player, and not quite ready for the glue factory just yet (am I alone in thinking he could do a job further up the park? Certainly our most dangerous player from set pieces) but Donaldson / McKay are our best combination. Our back 4 should be built around that foundation.

 Play your best players in their best positions!

 

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16 minutes ago, wynthank15 said:

Had we not changed we would never have gotten 3rd in the league and won the cup.

We had been as high as second in the league and reached the league cup semi final in the season that Butcher left. There’s no telling how that could have finished if Butcher had stayed. 

21 minutes ago, wynthank15 said:

In the final season not only had we lost good players we had a horrendous injury list hence the reason for emergency signings and you can only sign what is available at the time according to your budget.

Whilst you can’t ignore losing quality players, and the injuries that occurred, the fact remains is that Hughes recruitment was generally poor. You can only sign what is available, but maybe it’s better to keep some of the budget rather than sign lots and lots of midfielders, when we were clearly still short in both defence and attack. 

 

27 minutes ago, wynthank15 said:

You may not have liked JH's style but while you have the ball the opposition cannot hurt you which is why we eked out points when we had no right to do so. I don't know why you dismiss winning 4 out of 5 after the split, they all count.

I understand that. The trouble is we tended to hurt ourselves when we had the ball by trying to retain possession too close to our own goal and then making a mistake. That season, we weren’t generally ekeing out points, we were trying to hold onto a lead and often failing. I don’t dismiss the winning 4 out of 5, I am just saying that it made the season look better than it probably was. 

 

31 minutes ago, wynthank15 said:

Hughes regarded the original budget plus the emergency signings as the budget for the following year, the board would only agree to the original budget, hence JH claimed his budget had been cut and the board claimed the budget had not changed. The sad part is that the system and style that JH inculcated in the squad could have been a successful template for many years to come but it was thrown over by the new inexperienced manager and the rest as they say is history.

Surely an experienced manager would have clarified the budget? The style could have been successful for years to come, but only with the right players. I would question Hughes’ ability to find and recruit those players. 

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1 hour ago, AncientMariner said:

If supporting a team is about winning and glory might I suggest you support one of the top four in the Premier? Real supporters stick with their team through thick and thin and will be at the Cup Final because thats what we do.

where did i say all i am interested in is winning and glory? I said i am fed up like many with the way this season has gone with no signs of it getting better but only worse. Would you keep going to the same restaurant week after week spending your hard earned cash if they kept serving you terrible food? Dont think so

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13 minutes ago, AlexJones said:

At the other end of the park, Ravens departure and subsequent back 4 reshuffle (Warren back in as center half, McKay shunted out to full back) also set us back. Donaldson / McKay were a promising partnership, would go as far as to say they looked like 2 of the best young Scottish center halves in the country during our clean sheet marathon - hard to believe now though. Warren is still a useful squad player, and not quite ready for the glue factory just yet (am I alone in thinking he could do a job further up the park? Certainly our most dangerous player from set pieces) but Donaldson / McKay are our best combination. Our back 4 should be built around that foundation.

 Play your best players in their best positions!

 

We are really suffering from not having a right back, and the general lack of depth in defence. McKa6 and Donaldson looked pretty good as a pairing. 

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6 hours ago, snorbens_caleyman said:

You think that having only 10 teams in the division might help us there?  :wink:

Oops...thats what happens when you typing whilst pretending to be working!

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I think a major issue is the type of player we are signing. The majority of Butchers signings had work ethic and a desire to develop (Warren, Hayes, Rooney, tremarco). Under Hughes and Foran we have had the entrance of more egotistical players (Vigurs, Mulreany, McKay). When the going gets tough, good luck finding these guys.

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Our clean sheet run came when we had Coll, Raven and Tremarco. These three were more pivotal to the defensive resilience than the Brad/Coll parternship. These three protected McKay. If Warren was in for McKay it wouldn't have mattered.

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50 minutes ago, AlexJones said:

Players don't become rubbish overnight. The margins in this league are small. FWIW I think our recent slump is down to tactical decisions. During our winning run Bell was by far our best attacking player IMO and a reliable goalscorer / defender from the front. He shouldn't be out on the flank, he should be our first choice center forward. Oakley will almost certainly make it (reminiscent of a young Adam Rooney) as a top flight player one day, but he isn't mobile enough to carry a threat as a lone striker. A Bell / Oakley front partnership is our best combination.

At the other end of the park, Ravens departure and subsequent back 4 reshuffle (Warren back in as center half, McKay shunted out to full back) also set us back. Donaldson / McKay were a promising partnership, would go as far as to say they looked like 2 of the best young Scottish center halves in the country during our clean sheet marathon - hard to believe now though. Warren is still a useful squad player, and not quite ready for the glue factory just yet (am I alone in thinking he could do a job further up the park? Certainly our most dangerous player from set pieces) but Donaldson / McKay are our best combination. Our back 4 should be built around that foundation.

 Play your best players in their best positions!

 

Yes, things do seem to have unravelled at the back with the shunting of Mckay over to RB due to Raven's departure, accommodating Warren. I guess Seedorf isn't quite the finished article yet. Not surprising really.  Never really been convinced by Mckay at RB either...it'll be interesting to see whether Robbo will be tempted to drop Warren and return to the our most effective pairing once Donaldson is back fit ( I suspect Robbo is like many managers who tend to err on the side of experience regardless of real form, so it may take til the end of the season to see this one out). Tremarco is clearly one of the better LB's in the division so we should really have a pretty strong backline.

I agree with the Bell/Oakley front pairing, we should be able to rotate one of Doran/Mulraney?Elbouzedi to attack down a wing...the only question then is should Trafford be playing more?

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I don't mind losing. Losing is a part of life. What I won't accept is player who represent my club  as employees, failing to give their all on the pitch. Last night, there were plenty of them. This is unacceptable, surely Robbo can see the players hiding. I would rather see 11 youth players giving their all and snapping into tackles, than mercenaries floating about the pitch, stealing a wage.

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1 hour ago, Stirling Observer said:

I don't mind losing. Losing is a part of life. What I won't accept is player who represent my club  as employees, failing to give their all on the pitch. Last night, there were plenty of them. This is unacceptable, surely Robbo can see the players hiding. I would rather see 11 youth players giving their all and snapping into tackles, than mercenaries floating about the pitch, stealing a wage.

Imagine how I feel about my other club...with Christian Benteke basically treading water until he sod's off to somewhere like China at the end of the season....he gets £120K per week! By comparison some of Caley's player would merely be doing a bit of shoplifting....at a sweetie store!

It's one of the mysteries of football that the same bunch of players can be both inspired and up for it, in one match and insipid, half-arsed and disjointed in another

Edited by Eagle4Caley

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2 hours ago, AlexJones said:

Players don't become rubbish overnight. The margins in this league are small. FWIW I think our recent slump is down to tactical decisions. During our winning run Bell was by far our best attacking player IMO and a reliable goalscorer / defender from the front. He shouldn't be out on the flank, he should be our first choice center forward. Oakley will almost certainly make it (reminiscent of a young Adam Rooney) as a top flight player one day, but he isn't mobile enough to carry a threat as a lone striker. A Bell / Oakley front partnership is our best combination.

At the other end of the park, Ravens departure and subsequent back 4 reshuffle (Warren back in as center half, McKay shunted out to full back) also set us back. Donaldson / McKay were a promising partnership, would go as far as to say they looked like 2 of the best young Scottish center halves in the country during our clean sheet marathon - hard to believe now though. Warren is still a useful squad player, and not quite ready for the glue factory just yet (am I alone in thinking he could do a job further up the park? Certainly our most dangerous player from set pieces) but Donaldson / McKay are our best combination. Our back 4 should be built around that foundation.

 Play your best players in their best positions!

 

Alex, I can't help but agree with you on all points.

Bell and Oakley up front makes sense. Young Daniel and Austin (if he ever gets fit) could be back up for them and Doran or Mulraney.

I also said earlier in the season that Warren could still do a job for us up front at the time or now at right back in view of the short comings of Seedorf and McKay in that position. (Roberto) Carlos Tremarco is our best option at left back with Calder just in front. Time to rest Chalmers too and make Trafford the anchor man in midfield. 

So my picks for our next game v the Arabs would be:

Ridgers

Warren - Brad McKay - Donaldson (hope he's fit) - Tremarco

Doran - Trafford - Vigurs - Calder

Bell - Oakley

Subs : Esson or Cammy MacKay, Seedorf, Chalmers, Polworth, Daniel MacKay, Mulraney & Austin or Elbouzedi

Edited by Row S
Bloody predictive text again

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The way wythank15 talks about Hughes you'd think he was the only ICT manager that had ever lost good players from his side and had budgetary constraints. 

Also worth remembering that our good form earlier in the season came with a front two of Baird and Bell who not only buzzed about the front line to create and take chances (less so in Bairds case!) but both did a power of work defending from the front which made us a lot more difficult to beat.

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1 hour ago, RiG said:

The way wythank15 talks about Hughes you'd think he was the only ICT manager that had ever lost good players from his side and had budgetary constraints. 

Also worth remembering that our good form earlier in the season came with a front two of Baird and Bell who not only buzzed about the front line to create and take chances (less so in Bairds case!) but both did a power of work defending from the front which made us a lot more difficult to beat.

The way wyrhank 15 talks about Hughes you'd think he was Hughes.

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44 minutes ago, Kingsmills said:

The way wyrhank 15 talks about Hughes you'd think he was Hughes.

IMO its good to see someone supporting our most successful manager:ohmy:

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4 minutes ago, caleyboy said:

IMO its good to see someone supporting our most successful manager:ohmy:

There is no doubting that Yogi had great success but we are now paying the price for his arrogant shortcomings in other respects.

In my view, all things considered and in relative terms, our most successful manager was Steve Paterson.

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4 hours ago, Kingsmills said:

There is no doubting that Yogi had great success but we are now paying the price for his arrogant shortcomings in other respects.

In my view, all things considered and in relative terms, our most successful manager was Steve Paterson.

och come on kingsmills every manager needs a strong chairman who can say no. the problem was we had a very weak one who thought he was the only one capable of making decisions. Pele unfortunately had too many demons to get that accolade. 

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