Conformist or Non Conformist ?

[Leaky Blinder]

Please consider completing the poll to help capture the current mind set of the forum statistically. My personal disclaimer is that I consider myself non conforming for reasons outlined elsewhere and I sincerely believe that doing nothing achieves exactly nothing. That said I fully respect the variety of opinion and this poll would enable clarity as to whether conformists are now in the majority. 

This is not intended to rabble rouse as the forum is a just a small data set, but aims to facilitate further discussion around organised protest should there be sufficient support in principle, and where possible involve the trust in any potential action or actions discussed, given their support in principle at the recent meeting.

Thank you in advance and I hope the poll actually works !! 

[bishbashbosh]

Leaky
You have missed out no. 7.

“ enough is enough, all that contribute on this forum have had their say, it’s time to move on and support the team.”

Season starts for real 3rd of august.

We need every penny, every supporter to stay in this league.

ps…. Not having a go, it’s just time to move on, in my opinion.

[+CaleyHedgehog]

Interesting idea, Leaky.

I am not attending games at the moment - hoping for evidence that SG is gone soon - but I feel that I protest by not putting money into the club at present, so no need for further action. I do feel bad about it, but I don't earn a great wage and work hard for it, so I do not want to risk seeing it disappear into the pocket of SG. 

The price of season tickets is also ridiculous, but, under the right circumstances I would stretch to pay this for this year at least, in order to help the club out. However not until there is change at the club.

Although I do not wish to protest, I felt that the meeting organised by the Supporters' Trust was beneficial and would welcome more meetings like that if there is anything worth discussing.

I totally respect the rights of others to have their own views and to proceed as they see fit as far as game attendance is concerned.

 

[Leaky Blinder]

  On 7/21/2024 at 8:46 AM, bishbashbosh said:

Leaky
You have missed out no. 7.

“ enough is enough, all that contribute on this forum have had their say, it’s time to move on and support the team.”

Season starts for real 3rd of august.

We need every penny, every supporter to stay in this league.

ps…. Not having a go, it’s just time to move on, in my opinion.

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Thanks for the feedback Triple B, appreciate your input 

[Leaky Blinder]

  On 7/21/2024 at 9:25 AM, CaleyHedgehog said:

Interesting idea, Leaky.

I am not attending games at the moment - hoping for evidence that SG is gone soon - but I feel that I protest by not putting money into the club at present, so no need for further action. I do feel bad about it, but I don't earn a great wage and work hard for it, so I do not want to risk seeing it disappear into the pocket of SG. 

The price of season tickets is also ridiculous, but, under the right circumstances I would stretch to pay this for this year at least, in order to help the club out. However not until there is change at the club.

Although I do not wish to protest, I felt that the meeting organised by the Supporters' Trust was beneficial and would welcome more meetings like that if there is anything worth discussing.

I totally respect the rights of others to have their own views and to proceed as they see fit as far as game attendance is concerned.

 

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Thanks CH I think your post captures the essence of the dilemma many face. I think it's a really key point that the club should recognise not all of us have a lot of spare money to throw around and we have to balance our personal budget before paying the wages of others in some sacrificial manner. 

[Yngwie]

I just don’t follow the logic of people who choose to deprive the club of cash because they ‘don’t want to pay SG’s wages’.

If you buy a season ticket or match ticket, he will get paid.

If you do not buy a season ticket or match ticket, he will still get paid.

Therefore you are not paying his wages.

He will get paid his contractual entitlement whatever happens. Even if he leaves tomorrow, he will still be getting paid until his notice period expires. The only circumstances he does not get paid is if the club goes bust.

If you put money into the club by buying tickets, it will boost the player budget, that is the variable, discretionary cost the club has to play with. More money = more players, better players. Similarly if revenue falls short of projections, they will just have to offload more of the remaining players for whatever pittance of a transfer fee they can get, or none at all just to get the wage bill down further. But SG will still be getting paid in full.

Your stance is futile and just weakens the team.

Edited July 21, 2024 by Yngwie

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Very well said Yngwie and does everyone understand that HE will decide when to leave. As you allude to whether you put spondoolachs into the pot or not - it will not affect his contracted wage. 

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

I used to call Butcher a narcissist but Gardiner is a true Personality Disordered Narcissist. Demonstrations and social media abuse will simply go right over his head. He is in full control and he evidently has his own agenda to follow

 

[bdu98196]

Where are we covering the that a seaside leagues caley doesn't appeal that much but off-field events just provide a useful narrative to stay away? 

[+old caley girl]

  On 7/21/2024 at 11:14 AM, bdu98196 said:

Where are we covering the that a seaside leagues caley doesn't appeal that much but off-field events just provide a useful narrative to stay away? 

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I don't get why you keep saying this tbh. Most of the folk I know that haven't renewed are long standing fans not glory hunters. I've supported the club through 2 guises for 48 years. What league we are in is not an issue to me 

[Yngwie]

  On 7/21/2024 at 11:14 AM, bdu98196 said:

Where are we covering the that a seaside leagues caley doesn't appeal that much but off-field events just provide a useful narrative to stay away? 

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Are suggesting that fair weather fans don’t want to admit to being so, and instead find another justification for staying away? It is inevitably a factor for a section of the support but I certainly wouldn’t suggest it applies to people on this forum who I know to be long term, diehard fans.

[STFU]

  On 7/21/2024 at 10:39 AM, Yngwie said:

I just don’t follow the logic of people who choose to deprive the club of cash because they ‘don’t want to pay SG’s wages’.

If you buy a season ticket or match ticket, he will get paid.

If you do not buy a season ticket or match ticket, he will still get paid.

Therefore you are not paying his wages.

He will get paid his contractual entitlement whatever happens. Even if he leaves tomorrow, he will still be getting paid until his notice period expires. The only circumstances he does not get paid is if the club goes bust.

If you put money into the club by buying tickets, it will boost the player budget, that is the variable, discretionary cost the club has to play with. More money = more players, better players. Similarly if revenue falls short of projections, they will just have to offload more of the remaining players for whatever pittance of a transfer fee they can get, or none at all just to get the wage bill down further. But SG will still be getting paid in full.

Your stance is futile and just weakens the team.

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I think that oversimplifies the situation. 

Whilst many will verbalise it as 'not paying towards SGs wages' it is ultimately about getting him away from the club.  If he was out the door and still being paid the remainder of his contract I would be more likely to return.

I hear the arguments for him being hard to extract and that he is working his notice but nothing is happening and we're not being told how or when that will be.

For me the only means I feel I have to try and get the club to listen is by withholding my money and others may be the same.

[Charles Bannerman]

I think we are looking here at yet another way where football and its customer practices are quite different from what you’ll find in any other business. If your local Tesco is a shambles, not giving you what you want…. and if the person at the checkout is habitually obnoxious…. then rather than campaign to make Tesco better, particularly by getting rid of the checkout operator, you go and shop in Morrisons instead. That’s because you don’t feel any sort of affinity or emotional attachment to Tesco, so not using them and shopping elsewhere isn’t a difficult decision. However when Caley Thistle fans feel outraged about how the club is being run, precious few will go and watch County or Clach or Nairn instead because they want to do something to make their existing arrangements better. It’s not quite Stockholm Syndrome, but fans’ ongoing affinity with a body, which is an absolute fundamental of football, and despite it behaving very badly, is certainly in the same ballpark.

So instead, there’s a ST boycott, which is risky since (change metaphors!) the attempt to save the patient by forcibly trying to cut out the cancer is in danger of killing them. I also wonder how many are boycotting because they see this as a definite means of action that gives them the feeling they are doing something, and how many because, morally, they feel unable to give their money to a body operating in the way that ICT has been doing? Or both.

What seems a bit strange is that the current campaign has largely been restricted to the boycott, with all its inherent dangers, and there has been virtually no other high profile, public action. For instance, I don’t even know if the single guy in the layby yesterday was even protesting - or if he just didn’t want to spend £18. But what I do know is that the media had been prepared for the possibility of some kind of public demonstration in or around yesterday’s game, but nothing materialised. Older contributors will remember the massive publicity coup which was the bus full of banned rebels that was parked at the Comet end of Telford Street in 1994… ironically in a controversial situation that prompted massive public demand for season tickets.

(This, by the way, ISN’T an incitement to civil disobedience…. simply some modestly philosophical thoughts about the precise nature and effects of the boycott.)

Edited July 21, 2024 by Charles Bannerman

[Yngwie]

  On 7/21/2024 at 12:35 PM, STFU said:

I think that oversimplifies the situation. 

Whilst many will verbalise it as 'not paying towards SGs wages' it is ultimately about getting him away from the club.  If he was out the door and still being paid the remainder of his contract I would be more likely to return.

I hear the arguments for him being hard to extract and that he is working his notice but nothing is happening and we're not being told how or when that will be.

For me the only means I feel I have to try and get the club to listen is by withholding my money and others may be the same.

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Fair enough, but the club don’t know that you feel that way unless you tell them explicitly why you aren’t attending or arrange a protest of some sort, otherwise you are just assumed to be one of the fans who have drifted away for footballing reasons.

[bdu98196]

  On 7/21/2024 at 11:53 AM, old caley girl said:

I don't get why you keep saying this tbh. Most of the folk I know that haven't renewed are long standing fans not glory hunters. I've supported the club through 2 guises for 48 years. What league we are in is not an issue to me 

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Noted, but your position may not be the same for others.

  On 7/21/2024 at 11:54 AM, Yngwie said:

Are suggesting that fair weather fans don’t want to admit to being so, and instead find another justification for staying away? It is inevitably a factor for a section of the support

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For some the social and economic situation wituin society there may be less stigma using the current club issues as reasons not to return rather than costs. For others simply seaside leagues and lower levels do not appeal (other entertainment options or pressures provide perceived betrer value) - when we dropped from prem to champ there was a fall in attendance so why is it unrealistic to expect the same?

Simply my point is that you now will never be able to attribute the drop in attendance to any single factor however it will mostly be spun as due to Gardiner which may or may not be the reality.

[STFU]

  On 7/21/2024 at 12:52 PM, Yngwie said:

Fair enough, but the club don’t know that you feel that way unless you tell them explicitly why you aren’t attending or arrange a protest of some sort, otherwise you are just assumed to be one of the fans who have drifted away for footballing reasons.

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More fool them if they want to play daft laddie and bury their head in the sand.

There are numerous accounts of fans including me who have tried to contact them and not got so much as an acknowledgement.

[Jack Waddington]

  On 7/21/2024 at 12:49 PM, Charles Bannerman said:

For instance, I don’t even know if the single guy in the layby yesterday was even protesting - or if he just didn’t want to spend £18.

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T'was I in the layby, and I'm just sticking to my guns that I refuse to put a penny into this club until Scot Gardiner is shown the door (as are many who just decided to dodge the game altogether). I put £400 down to sponsor Niko's shirt, ~£300 for a season ticket and however much it was for the home and away tops (as well as cup tickets and food), aaaand frankly I feel like I've been had on for a jolly, hence the protest(s). Gardiner's torn this club limb from limb and pile drived it firmly into the ground.

The Concert Co., the Battery Farm, Clickbait Proponents, WATP55 Kits on the Order's most celebrated day, Dodds and Dunc, Evaporated P&R deals, Relegation, late tax forms, and most importantly, sending club stalwarts down the Ganges. The list goes on.

Once that muppet has gone, I'm more than happy to put my money back into the club, but why should I assist someone who has shown nothing but distain for the fanbase and taken us all for a bunch of imbiciles?

[+CaleyHedgehog]

  On 7/21/2024 at 1:04 PM, Jack Waddington said:

T'was I in the layby, and I'm just sticking to my guns that I refuse to put a penny into this club until Scot Gardiner is shown the door

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Well done, Jack. In the past I may have concluded that someone was pretty miserly to watch from the layby, but I salute your stand and the reasons why you did it. Maybe I will bring along a camping seat and join you one day, if we don't see change soon.

[big cherly]

Hi LB, 

I understand and like the multi-choice of where fans can select there preference on how they support the club. 
For me, it’s a simple ‘fight’ for the soul (if I can use that term) of the club.  There are three support ‘groups’ as I see things:- 

1) Attend the games as it’s the club you support irrespective of the team performance / results and who runs the club. 

2) Attends and support the club,  would like a stylish team and results, but indifferent about off-field ongoings to get involved. 

3) Supports the team, but consider a new approach and set of leaders is required. Willing to promote change.

I don’t differentiate between the home or away games support. 

Irrespective of which camp you fall (I change my leaning sometimes), I believe the fan base is too small to the have any real effect. The future direction of the club imho will be decided by who (individual or group) puts up the money to gain control of the board. There are few, if any individuals in the highlands willing to dig into there pockets to pay of the ‘leavers and debt fee’ before looking at stadium or team investment, (really can’t blame them). If there was 5 or 6 thousand supporters the decision would be more appealing from a financial position. 
Alas they are not and having supported the club from its conception, I don’t see any signs of increase in core base support in the numbers needed to effect change. 

So whist we the fans may pick and chose where we place our badge on how we support the club, we may have to just accept the level we have reached is where we actually should be. 

Ultimately what I think I am saying (poorly) is, we are all supporters of the club and want it to do well, but as things stand, with the exception of ‘Kelty’ have little influence on how it is controlled. 

Just my tuppence worth!

 

 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2024 by big cherly

[Yngwie]

  On 7/21/2024 at 1:04 PM, Jack Waddington said:

why should I assist someone who has shown nothing but distain for the fanbase and taken us all for a bunch of imbiciles?

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In what way do you think you would be assisting HIM, as opposed to assisting the club, the team and your fellow fans, by enabling us to have a better team? I totally get why you want rid of SG but to me a boycott just seems to be a nose/face thing.

Edited July 21, 2024 by Yngwie

[Leaky Blinder]

  On 7/21/2024 at 1:31 PM, big cherly said:

Hi LB, 

I understand and like the multi-choice of where fans can select there preference on how they support the club. 
For me, it’s a simple ‘fight’ for the soul (if I can use that term) of the club.  There are three support ‘groups’ as I see things:- 

1) Attend the games as it’s the club you support irrespective of the team performance / results and who runs the club. 

2) Attends and support the club,  would like a stylist team and results, but indifferent about off-field ongoings to get involved. 

3) Supports the team, but consider a new approach and set of leaders is required. Willing to promote change.

I don’t differentiate between the home or away games support. 

Irrespective of which camp you fall (I change my leaning sometimes), I believe the fan base is too small to the have any real effect. The future direction of the club imho will be decided by who (individual or group) puts up the money to gain control of the board. There are few, if any individuals in the highlands willing to dig into there pockets to pay of the ‘leavers and debt fee’ before looking at stadium or team investment, (really can’t blame them). If there was 5 or 6 thousand supporters the decision would be more appealing from a financial position. 
Alas they are not and having supported the club from its conception, I don’t see any signs of increase in core base support in the numbers needed to effect change. 

So whist we the fans may pick and chose where we place our badge on how we support the club, we may have to just accept the level we have reached is where we actually should be. 

Ultimately what I think I am saying (poorly) is, we are all supporters of the club and want it to do well, but as things stand, with the exception of ‘Kelty’ have little influence on how it is controlled. 

Just my tuppence worth!

 

 

 

 

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Thanks BC undoubtedly we all fall into one of the camps illustrated where we believe a particular course of action or individual /collective strategy will result in a more favourable ( or least worst) outcome. 

My current rationale is that in the absence of any sort of visible stance from the stay away support the board and outgoing ?? CE must believe they have won a watch and feel empowered to continue down their current path ( i.e. a complete lack of specifics when communicating to stakeholders, whether they be shareholders, supporters, media, or the wider community meaning we either take them on trust or we don't dependent on which group you fall into) confident there is now no grass roots dynamic left in in play, and who amongst us can currently state otherwise ! 

As Charles Bannerman articulated in an earlier post the media were expecting activity in the form of a protest and with the complete absence of anything resembling resistance the board can now act on the basis they have been vindicated in their current strategy. This is where past mistakes in strategy may be compounded as they have demonstrated a complete lack of competence thus far (based on all known information, but we do have to ask why do they not want to connect meaningfully with the fanbase and are delaying an overdue AGM announcement). The counter argument is they want to get a "deal" over the line but should there be prospective investors enjoying exclusivity ( everything is Chinese whispers), there is no transparency to shareholders and as other clubs have found to be the case, boards don't always choose the best long term outcome for the club but present a fate accompli. 

If I was a prospective investor the lack of spirit shown by the fanbase would be a major red flag. The wider latent support cannot be galvanised without a focal point via the media highlighting the fight for the soul of the club. It may be an impossible task but we should at least try or just be another group of supporters who let their club wither on the vine through poor governance and a lack of accountability structure being in place, whether formal or informal, assuming the people in charge of decision making always know best. We know this is not always the case.

 

 

[ICTPaisley]

  On 7/21/2024 at 1:04 PM, Jack Waddington said:

T'was I in the layby, and I'm just sticking to my guns that I refuse to put a penny into this club until Scot Gardiner is shown the door (as are many who just decided to dodge the game altogether). I put £400 down to sponsor Niko's shirt, ~£300 for a season ticket and however much it was for the home and away tops (as well as cup tickets and food), aaaand frankly I feel like I've been had on for a jolly, hence the protest(s). Gardiner's torn this club limb from limb and pile drived it firmly into the ground.

The Concert Co., the Battery Farm, Clickbait Proponents, WATP55 Kits on the Order's most celebrated day, Dodds and Dunc, Evaporated P&R deals, Relegation, late tax forms, and most importantly, sending club stalwarts down the Ganges. The list goes on.

Once that muppet has gone, I'm more than happy to put my money back into the club, but why should I assist someone who has shown nothing but distain for the fanbase and taken us all for a bunch of imbiciles?

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Interesting that you mention the Concert Co. I think for Duran Duran, that was the last time people were watching on from the lay by. Whatever happened to that company again? 

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Breaking News - Discounted Season tickets for the A9 layby will be available untill the end of July. Plans to install a couple of benches are ongoing 

[Leaky Blinder]

  On 7/21/2024 at 4:24 PM, IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER said:

Breaking News - Discounted Season tickets for the A9 layby will be available untill the end of July. Plans to install a couple of benches are ongoing 

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If only the club could be as helpful with their communications 

[Yngwie]

  On 7/21/2024 at 4:24 PM, IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER said:

Breaking News - Discounted Season tickets for the A9 layby will be available untill the end of July. Plans to install a couple of benches are ongoing 

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Who is submitting the planning application?!