Investment Needed NOW

[caleyboy]

in the past they have been told to contact the club to do so. Not sure if it is the case any more but when they were made available as part of the share issue, 250 shares @ ?1 each was the minimum purchase block

As far as I'm aware the position is still the same Scotty but all applications need board approval. Just imagine if McGil or Coff wanted to splash the cash - Hell would freeze over!

[Wilsononourwing]

our big shareholder is just useing this club as a toy for him self to play with.be great if some one buys him out

If you recall an article sometime ago in the Inverness Courier, where David Sutherland admits the Inner Moray Firth and in particular the area formerly known as the dump as the jewel in the crown in the development of Inverness. So does this mean that Tulloch Caledonian Stadium is indeed a temporary home?

Also do you recall current chairman George Fraser admitting that it is not beyond the realms of possibility that we move to Queens Park. In my opinion Queens Park is only fit for a 3rd Division team. Was relegation all part of the master plan? As I said before its easier to remove a lowly SFL team from its home than an SPL team.

However I do believe Butcher in the name of FOOTBALL will do all he can to get us promoted!!!!!

[Renegade]

If by Queens Park you mean that wee shinty stadium, then I doubt that possible cos of it's wooden frame. I do seem to recollect someone from the inside (quite possibly Sutherland) saying a couple of seasons words to the effect that they had not ruled out a move to the Bught sometime in the near future.

[CaleyD]

Something tells me the minimum was lowered/removed....but don't quote me on that.

[Charles Bannerman]

If by Queens Park you mean that wee shinty stadium,

Queens Park is the athletics stadium beside the Torvean Canal Bridge. It belongs to Inverness Leisure and has been the home of Inverness Harriers for the last 25 years. The infield is not large enough to accommodate a football pitch.

The "wee shinty stadium" is the Bught. It belongs to Highland Council and has for decades been the home of Inverness Shinty Club as well as a sub national shinty facility. Politically there would not be a hope in creation of that being given over to football either.

In advance of the bypass being completed, and we all know how remote a prospect that is, moving crowds of 2-7000 in and out of either of these venues regularly - along Glenurquhart Road, Tomnahurich St, and much of it over the Ness Bridge and through the city centre - would be an impossibility in any case.

Believe me - and I have seen Bruce Hare's original 1993 feasibility study which looked at no fewer than eleven different sites and which I think is still sitting in a box behind me - Inverness is not over endowed with suitable sites for a football stadium. In 1993 there was a struggle to boil the 11 down to a realistic short list of four and before that Caley had had no end of trouble with venues like the Carse, Kinmylies and indeed the Bught area. Opportunities have also become a lot less numerous since the early 1990s.

(In fact the only two which were really possible were East Longman and Stratton Farm. INE were despearate to go for Stratton in order to kick start the Golden Mile and indeed I note that development agencies still seem to be fixated with shifting the epicentre of Inverness out to the A96, given Willie Rowe of HIE's recent comments. Anyway, Caley Thistle were desperate NOT to go to Stratton and a battle royal ensued during part of 1994 between club and Enterprise Company which eventually ended with the selection of East Longman. The revisionist in me often wonders, as a matter of curiosity, "what if" they had gone for Stratton Farm?)

Edited January 27, 2010 by Charles Bannerman

[ictchris]

Big companies like Tulloch/Rok etc don't have evil masterplans where the board all get together and decide to run down a football club in order to get them to move stadium so they can develop it. If they did want to run us down, why did Tulloch invest in the club in the early 2000s and continue that through the decade, subsidising the construction of our new stands and our time in the SPL?

[Charles Bannerman]

Big companies like Tulloch/Rok etc don't have evil masterplans where the board all get together and decide to run down a football club in order to get them to move stadium so they can develop it. If they did want to run us down, why did Tulloch invest in the club in the early 2000s and continue that through the decade, subsidising the construction of our new stands and our time in the SPL?

Well Donald.... over to you :moon2:

[CaleyD]

What about the 5 sites that were looked at in 2002 when ASDA were looking to build a ?25 Million Store on the site of the current stadium? If memory serves, and I may have some info on it somewhere, the Bught was deemed a very favourable option for a proposed move at that time and ICT were set to be made an offer far in excess of the ?2.6 Million we sold out for.

[+DoofersDad]

The revisionist in me often wonders, as a matter of curiosity, "what if" they had gone for Stratton Farm?

I expect we would have got even more bullsh*t from the Board.

Seriously though, is there any reason that would have made a difference?

[CaleyD]

Big companies like Tulloch/Rok etc don't have evil masterplans where the board all get together and decide to run down a football club in order to get them to move stadium so they can develop it. If they did want to run us down, why did Tulloch invest in the club in the early 2000s and continue that through the decade, subsidising the construction of our new stands and our time in the SPL?

Well Donald.... over to you :moon2:

My theories on that are well documented throughout this site and it's actually quite interesting to see people claiming "As I said" on things I have been saying for years in regards to the direction the club was heading and things that were going on.

A quick look at the Local Plan for the development of the Harbour and surrounding area will give you some idea of the value of the land the Stadium sits on, and Sutherland got it for a song in comparison to it's real (potential) value and the investment made since then (which is much exaggerated) is nothing in the grand scheme of things and Sutherland has had that money back (and more) from the rent ICT pay. In effect it has cost him nothing and he is set to make a very tidy profit at some point. As he's no spring chicken then it wouldn't surprise me if he was looking to realise a return on that "investment" in the next couple of years and a football club which is struggling financially and which doesn't need a 6000 seater stadium is far easier (and cheaper) to relocate than a flourishing SPL team.

How's that for a conspiracy?

[Guest Mahonio]

What happens midnight on Monday?

Is that because the transfer window closes?

It can't be this, because it closes at 5pm on Monday and i know this because i watch Sky Sports News every night as part of my nightly routine and they have advertised their programme for the whole of that day until 5pm.

[12th Man]

What we need right now is 3000 fans to purchase 100 shares each. That would give the club an immediate 750k.

Irrespective of the share price, Alex does seem to have taken thinking here out of the traditional box where the financing of football is held to be the responsibility of wealthy individuals through making donations to clubs who are apparently owed a living by them.

In answer to Georgeios' query about what was said on the BBC on Monday morning, yes, David Sutherland did confirm to me that he would be making a donation to the Clach Survival Fund which as at Sunday stood at ?8800. It is my understanding that his donation is a modest sum which will join others in a pot designed to keep Clach in buses for away games, rent of Grant Street for home games and around a tenner per player per game for the next few weeks.... and hence Inverness in the Highland League at least for the time being.

We are talking here orders of magnitude less than the cost of keeping a recently relegated full time First Division team in operation in a 7500 seater stadium.

I also heard on the radio that it is costing ?500 to ?600 per week to pay the administrator to keep it solvent which is draining the money pot,so unless the council can come to some agreement about the debt, I think someone may buy the debt and lease the ground back to Clach. Any ideas who would do this ? :moon2:

What we need right now is 3000 fans to purchase 100 shares each. That would give the club an immediate 750k.

How could ordinary fans purchase shares as they are not on open market?

The shares were a ?1 each last year, you would probably want to contact the company secretary if you are interested.I'm not sure what you would actually be buying though,

Will the club buy them back if you needed the cash and at what value?

The supporters trust may be a better long term option, as long as they are being treated fairly by the club, I read the minutes on the web for last years AGM and the % of shares allocated to the trust had changed ??? Maybe someone can shed some light, the latest AGM must be very soon too.

Edited January 28, 2010 by 12th Man

[Georgeios]

Thanks Charles, I wasnt having a pop just wanted it clarifyed..

[L_G]

What we need right now is 3000 fans to purchase 100 shares each. That would give the club an immediate 750k.

Irrespective of the share price, Alex does seem to have taken thinking here out of the traditional box where the financing of football is held to be the responsibility of wealthy individuals through making donations to clubs who are apparently owed a living by them.

In answer to Georgeios' query about what was said on the BBC on Monday morning, yes, David Sutherland did confirm to me that he would be making a donation to the Clach Survival Fund which as at Sunday stood at ?8800. It is my understanding that his donation is a modest sum which will join others in a pot designed to keep Clach in buses for away games, rent of Grant Street for home games and around a tenner per player per game for the next few weeks.... and hence Inverness in the Highland League at least for the time being.

We are talking here orders of magnitude less than the cost of keeping a recently relegated full time First Division team in operation in a 7500 seater stadium.

I also heard on the radio that it is costing ?500 to ?600 per week to pay the administrator to keep it solvent which is draining the money pot,so unless the council can come to some agreement about the debt, I think someone may buy the debt and lease the ground back to Clach. Any ideas who would do this ? :017:

What we need right now is 3000 fans to purchase 100 shares each. That would give the club an immediate 750k.

How could ordinary fans purchase shares as they are not on open market?

The shares were a ?1 each last year, you would probably want to contact the company secretary if you are interested.I'm not sure what you would actually be buying though,

Will the club buy them back if you needed the cash and at what value?

The supporters trust may be a better long term option, as long as they are being treated fairly by the club, I read the minutes on the web for last years AGM and the % of shares allocated to the trust had changed ??? Maybe someone can shed some light, the latest AGM must be very soon too.

Supporters Trust AGM was on Tuesday night.

[Alex MacLeod]

What we need right now is 3000 fans to purchase 100 shares each. That would give the club an immediate 750k.

When were our shares repriced to ?2.50 a pop Alex? The last I heard Sutherland had them at 60p but that was many many years ago. From memory, face vaue is ?1. Good idea tho and why not be able to buy them over 10 months at a tenner a month?

Made a mistake. Should have said purchase 250 shares at ?1 each.

[caleyboy]

What happens midnight on Monday?

Is that because the transfer window closes?

It can't be this, because it closes at 5pm on Monday and i know this because i watch Sky Sports News every night as part of my nightly routine and they have advertised their programme for the whole of that day until 5pm.

As far as I'm aware, the SFA will accept registrations up to midnight Monday.

[caleyboy]

Big companies like Tulloch/Rok etc don't have evil masterplans where the board all get together and decide to run down a football club in order to get them to move stadium so they can develop it. If they did want to run us down, why did Tulloch invest in the club in the early 2000s and continue that through the decade, subsidising the construction of our new stands and our time in the SPL?

Why invest ina business that doesn't make any money? ONLY if there is an ultimate return!!!! Sutherland/Tullochs do not throw money away.

[starchief]

But they do invest in advertising. That's often why clubs will own sporting holdings, whether that be the name of a stadium, a seat on the Board, hoardings or an ad in a programme.

[Charles Bannerman]

Thanks Charles, I wasnt having a pop just wanted it clarifyed..

Sure thing! I fully understand that Georgeios.

[teaandpies]

Every club is in debt and just about every owner/shareholder loses money investing in a football club. Sutherland would rather see the club on its knees rather than put some more money in. What king of Caley Thistle fan is he?

Do you think the investors at County expect to get their money back? I dont think so.... They are real foootball fans. Just like the supporters that forked out for season tickets this season when the majority cant really afford it.

We cant even outbid a second division russian team for a player at the moment......

[Sorted]

Big companies like Tulloch/Rok etc don't have evil masterplans where the board all get together and decide to run down a football club in order to get them to move stadium so they can develop it. If they did want to run us down, why did Tulloch invest in the club in the early 2000s and continue that through the decade, subsidising the construction of our new stands and our time in the SPL?

The football world is full of local, national, international businesses that have ploughed ridiculous amounts of money into "their" club. In return, they get ridiculed by some for never doing enough, constantly taken to task by conspiracy theorists who always see the "hidden agenda", reprimanded for holding back investment by other similar alleged benefactors who when push comes to shove never deliver and, on the odd occasion, a little bit of praise.

I can say with full sincerity, no matter how wealthy I ever become, I will never invest (aka throw money away) on my football club. Anyone with any logic can see that for all who have ploughed into our club to date, the ridicule and financial loss far outweighs any "gains" that they make. For ever Fergus McCann there are hundreds of Simon Jordans.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Sorted

[Scotty]

The football world is full of local, national, international businesses that have ploughed ridiculous amounts of money into "their" club. In return, they get ridiculed by some for never doing enough, constantly taken to task by conspiracy theorists who always see the "hidden agenda", reprimanded for holding back investment by other similar alleged benefactors who when push comes to shove never deliver and, on the odd occasion, a little bit of praise.

I can say with full sincerity, no matter how wealthy I ever become, I will never invest (aka throw money away) on my football club. Anyone with any logic can see that for all who have ploughed into our club to date, the ridicule and financial loss far outweighs any "gains" that they make. For ever Fergus McCann there are hundreds of Simon Jordans.

I am kind of with you on this one ....

David Sutherland / Tullochs have certainly faced a lot of criticism in the recent past due to the change in our circumstances (relegation / financial worries etc). Is it deserved? Is it part of an evil plot? are we putting 2+2 together and making 5? or are we all just paranoid individuals with a larger sense of entitlement than we should have? These questions and more make for a lively debate anytime the subject comes up.

For my own part, I have to say that I do respect David Sutherland for all he has done for ICT in the past. I also respect virtually all of the businessmen or football men (especially Jimmy F) who have - over the years - been a part of bringing their varying levels of business acumen or administrative skills to the running of ICT. There are a couple who I feel were erroneous appointments but they didnt last long in the general scheme of things.

David Sutherland brought us back from the brink in the early part of our existence when we were sinking in debt from the cost of building the stadium and access road. I know CaleyD has opined in extensive fashion about the magic tricks, or perhaps illusions is a better term, that saw the debt disappear, along with the stadium but I still firmly believe that without this action we would not have a club right now, or at best we might be propping up the 3rd like Elgin. Does it make it right? Perhaps not, but at the time it seemed like the best of very few options. At that time Sutherland also did a lot of things quietly that most never knew about, whether it was supplying furniture to the club, reducing the outgoings by transferring some costs to Tullochs, getting Tulloch Group tradesmen to do work around the stadium for lower than normal rates, or even supplying staff who were on the Tulloch payroll and not the ICT one. None of this was shouted about but it happened even if I am a bit hazy on the full details.

Fast forward a few years and after reaching the highs of the SPL, we felt our first real low point with relegation. Until then the ICT story had been one of constant progression with very little setback. However, it now appears we are once again on the brink. We dont know the full details and the board are staying very silent on the matter (as is the norm these days unfortunately) but I dont think this can all be laid at Sutherland's door. We cannot expect or demand that he throw money into the club. We can hope he does but that has been his choice not his obligation when he has done it in the past. Sometimes he got nothing out of it, sometimes he got his payment in terms of positive PR for Tullochs or in advertising presence (Tulloch Caledonian Stadium mentioned on TV almost every week when we were in the SPL). He probably sold a few more houses before the recession hit on the back of this positive PR so he certainly got "paid" one way or another.

I would like to see him (and our board) be a little more open about our problems and how they hope to address them. Keeping a secret at the TCS is like trying to store water in a sieve ... it just doesnt happen and everything trickles out in the end so why do the ostrich act again and hope it all goes away and those nasty folks on the interweb start talking about other things.

I would also like to see a long term plan for the club. We achieved the "road to premier league football" (or whatever it was named), now we need another plan similar to that one which details how they hope to get out of the malaise we are in now and back to where we were. If its going to take 2 or 3 years to recover from relegation (optimistic I know) then say so ... dont give us the bull that money is in place (or will be if needed) for the manager to make the best effort possible to bounce back at the first attempt and then barely 4 months later fail to actually admit we are skint and cannot even afford a nominal sum to keep a player the manager wants on loan until the end of the season.

Personally, I would say that the existence of a long term plan should also seek to put some of the conspiracy theories to rest. I have heard them all, and have known of the local plan for the Allanfearn to A9 at Kessock Bridge leisure/entertainment corridor for many years. One of the first parts is already in operation (the new marina) and the original plan called for hotels and other leisure and sporting facilities along that corridor with the TCS at the very heart of it. This does make the land very valuable but it should also make ICT and the stadium a very attractive place to invest. I dont really care who owns the land (or more correctly the lease on the land) or indeed the stadium. I dont begrudge others making a profit due to past benevolence (or some might say astute investing) ... My only caveat is that when doing so, no harm is done to ICT and if possible that the club shares in some of the benefits of any development. Anything else is unacceptable. At the moment, the very clear perspective is that ICT is going backwards and some would even argue "being run-down" ... this is also not acceptable. We do need to cut our cloth to suit but at the very least the board should be open and honest with us so we can work together and get through this ... if that is the aim?

Going back to investment, I would definitely say we need some and should look at how Dundee or Partick have done it. Dundee have found themselves in far worse situations than us over the last few years but now they do appear to have their act together, have brought in new investors who do want to move the club forward and barring a complete meltdown, they have to be favourites for the title. Partick had to drop to Div2 before they were reborn but they also look pretty solid now. We need to do similar. We have millions of unissued shares gathering dust and perhaps our larger shareholders have to bite the bullet, encourage investment in the club and allow others to have at least a bit of a say for that investment. Investment may dilute the share percentage owned by most but it may also allow us to begin bouncing back ....... and that is what matters most.

(rant over)

[dan_ict]

If people feel so strongly about this they should protest instead of sitting around moaning on forums

[Georgeios]

Its a discussion dude not a moan.. this is how you suss out how to go getting things done, not just willy nilly.

[CaleyD]

I want to make it clear that my main objection in regard to stadium ownership are more to do with how it happened as oppose to it happening at all. What bothers me and needs answered is why it ended up in the hands of a private individual/business when we were told it was being moved to a Charitable Trust.

Some might think that it makes no difference, but it makes a big difference. A trust, especially a charitable trust, must be set up serve a specific cause. When the Charitable Trust was being talked about we were told that once it cleared its feet of the debt then any income it made would be used to benefit the Inverness sporting community. We were also told that ICT would have a stake in that Trust, and as such, some say in the activity of the trust and a legal right/claim to any benefits realised by the trust. In effect their was always the thought/belief that "ICT will get something back from the deal in future" and benefit in both the short and long term.

How would you feel if you had a Trust fund, only to discover that when you turned 21 and were due to start receiving that the solicitors had actually given everything to a private individual who was earning from your money/assets and had no legal responsibility to give you so much as a penny? And to then rub salt in the wound they wanted to charge you rent to remain in the family home?

I've been raising (and investigating) these concerns for years so my thoughts and feelings on it are not driven by any "low" that came from relegation or the rapid decline we seem to be witnessing as a result.

For the most part, ICT got to where they did thanks to the efforts of those on the playing/coaching/management side. Our off field activities have always been a run in a reactive shambles, the "we'll take care of that when it happens" approach, and it should be no surprise to anyone that this has finally caught up with us.

Furthermore, I have never been an advocate of the "Directors should be throwing in their money" argument. It shouldn't, for the most part, be needed. To qualify that, I appreciate that running a football club without occasional investment is a near impossible task, but there's many ways to attract that investment/sponsorship which go beyond selling the family silver and it can even be done without the need to sell shares...at least on a permanent basis.