Standing

[TopSix]

I'm aware that this topic has been done to death, but have a look at this:

"At today?s SPL General Meeting, clubs approved changes to SPL rules on safe standing and Unacceptable Conduct.

The SPL Board will now have the ability to approve requests from clubs to pilot safe standing areas for use in Clydesdale Bank Premier League matches.

The amendments to the existing Unacceptable Conduct rules were put forward following discussions within the Joint Action Group and are part of football?s commitment to protect and maintain the good reputation of the game in Scotland."

Read more here: http://www.scotprem.com/content/default.asp?page=s2&newsid=10907

Can we have a standing area please? I used to stand where the uncovered seats are now. How about a standing area directly opposite the dugouts? I find it closer to the action, easier to follow the game (you can hear the players communicating) and it would solve the problem of people standing in front of others, being too loud, etc etc etc.

[SMEE]

I wonder how mmuch they would charge to stand in terracing. SURELY it should be at least ?5-6 cheaper than sitting?

[TopSix]

I wonder how mmuch they would charge to stand in terracing. SURELY it should be at least £5-6 cheaper than sitting?

I'm probably going to be in the minority here, but I'd rather pay a bit more and be able to stand throughout the match.

Edited December 19, 2011 by Top Six Next Year

[AJS]

I wonder how mmuch they would charge to stand in terracing. SURELY it should be at least ?5-6 cheaper than sitting?

I'm probably going to be in the minority here, but I'd rather pay a bit more and be able to stand throughout the match.

Me too.

[TopSix]

I wonder how mmuch they would charge to stand in terracing. SURELY it should be at least ?5-6 cheaper than sitting?

I'm probably going to be in the minority here, but I'd rather pay a bit more and be able to stand throughout the match.

Me too.

Phew! Thought I might be the only one willing to part with more cash. Just hope the SPL get their sorted out quickly.

I still miss standing where those seats are now in that wee uncovered area. Used to stand right at the back, in the corner. Always a good view of the action (better than behind the goal line).

[AJS]

Standing is just better, it makes me less restless if the game is a tense one, It makes it easier to see the game overall, you cant sing properly sitting down, in the winter it dosent feel as cold. There are loads of advantages to standing and if it is safe then i see no reason why it shouldnt happen.

Edited December 19, 2011 by ajsict92

[TopSix]

Standing is just better, it makes me less restless if the game is a tense one, It makes it easier to see the game overall, you cant sing properly sitting down, in the winter it dosent feel as cold. There are loads of advantages to standing and if it is safe then i see no reason why it shouldnt happen.

I agree 100%

[Alex MacLeod]

I wouldn't think it would take too much to resurrect the whole west terracing. A few rest rails / barriers and a canopy. Only thing is the other stands would look even more empty on an average match day.

[Scotty]

I think this is a great idea ..... and not before time.

As I have mentioned on here before, I stand at all Toronto FC games and its never been a problem ... Toronto FC is an all seated stadium, that holds about 21,000 and it is usually filled to about 90-100% capacity for MLS games. The designated "supporters sections" are the only areas where standing is permitted and in 5 seasons - 77 league games and about 16 other Canada Cup/Concacaf Champions League games - I have never seen an issue that was related to standing..........

I would think ICT could be prime candidates for a test given the 3 (and a bit) stand layout of the ground. The west stand could easily be used as terracing on a pilot scheme ....

[TopSix]

I think this is a great idea ..... and not before time.

I would think ICT could be prime candidates for a test given the 3 (and a bit) stand layout of the ground. The west stand could easily be used as terracing on a pilot scheme ....

Would folk be prepared to pay for it though? I'd like to hope that those who wish to stand would be able to contribute to the changes that would be needed. How does it work at TFC for you Scotty? Do you pay more to be in one of the designated areas?

[Scotty]

I think this is a great idea ..... and not before time. I would think ICT could be prime candidates for a test given the 3 (and a bit) stand layout of the ground. The west stand could easily be used as terracing on a pilot scheme ....

Would folk be prepared to pay for it though? I'd like to hope that those who wish to stand would be able to contribute to the changes that would be needed. How does it work at TFC for you Scotty? Do you pay more to be in one of the designated areas?

Nope. The season tickets for the "supporters sections" are the lowest in the ground, and although it is laid out like a normal all seated stadium and there are seats there for us - if we want - I dont think many of us have spent more than a few minutes sitting in them during a game (or maybe at half-time) over the last 5 seasons.

My seats: http://www.seats3d.com/mls/toronto_fc/ (enter 113 as section and 11 as row)

Pricing in each section: http://www.goltv.ca/assets/1/AssetManager/2011Pricing%20and%20Seating%20Chart-SINGLEMar8.pdf (couldnt find a link for season ticket cost, but this gives you an idea of single tickets. Seasons range from about $375 in my area to $2000 at the half-way line in main stand). The nice little blue tables on pitchside are about $1000 per game I think (for 4 people) ... but it does come with free drink all through the match !

I hear people saying they would pay more to be in a standing area ... but I would have thought it should be the same or less than seated tickets? What is the rationale for paying more? I guess it will all come down to cost. As with anything there will be some cost, but the devil will be in the detail and the SPL page is severely lacking in that ......

[SMEE]

I hear people saying they would pay more to be in a standing area ... but I would have thought it should be the same or less than seated tickets? What is the rationale for paying more?

I was wondering this myself. Id have thought it would be several quid cheaper to stand than have a seat. Im kinda hoping this would be the case...as i might be able to afford to go to some games a bit more if it was the case

Edited December 19, 2011 by SMEE

[CaleyD]

I very much doubt clubs would be looking to charge less....even if they did create terracing areas....certainly not to begin with. All they would be doing is voluntarily giving up revenue as people moved from seated areas to cheaper areas.

What might be an idea for piloting is giving people the option to exchange their season ticket match stub for a terracing stub on a game by game basis....allowing them to use or revert back to their old seat at any point without having to risk giving it up.

With time you would like to think that if standing areas were bring people back through the turnstiles then it would be reflected in the price...but won't hold my breath on that one.

[TopSix]

I very much doubt clubs would be looking to charge less....even if they did create terracing areas....certainly not to begin with. All they would be doing is voluntarily giving up revenue as people moved from seated areas to cheaper areas.

There's bound to be costs involved in terms of adapting areas for standing though. And the demand and calls for standing areas is coming from the fans... Therefore those fans should be willing to pay more to cover the costs while providing their respective clubs with much needed revenue.

What might be an idea for piloting is giving people the option to exchange their season ticket match stub for a terracing stub on a game by game basis....allowing them to use or revert back to their old seat at any point without having to risk giving it up.

I'd happily give up my seat for terracing.

With time you would like to think that if standing areas were bring people back through the turnstiles then it would be reflected in the price...but won't hold my breath on that one.

I'd also like to think this is part of the SPL's rationale. Wouldn't hold my breath though! I would hope that bringing back standing would improve atmospheres at games and this in turn would lead to bigger crowds though.

Edited December 19, 2011 by Top Six Next Year

[Scotty]

I very much doubt clubs would be looking to charge less....even if they did create terracing areas....certainly not to begin with. All they would be doing is voluntarily giving up revenue as people moved from seated areas to cheaper areas.

There's bound to be costs involved in terms of adapting areas for standing though. And the demand and calls for standing areas is coming from the fans... Therefore those fans should be willing to pay more to cover the costs while providing their respective clubs with much needed revenue.

Thats where I say the devil is in the detail ... or lack of it ... in the statement !!!

IF the SPL allowed existing seated areas to be designated as Safe Standing, then there is no cost ! that is exactly what happens at Toronto. The whole ground is seated, was built on that basis, and the pricing is reflective of that, but the club have designated the whole of the south end of the stadium as "supporters sections" and the rules for these designated areas allow for flags, banners, drums, and standing ... it even mentions on the tickets and walkways something along the lines of "this is a supporters section ticket, and you may be subjected to flags, banners, standing etc". Non-regulars are basically told that if they cant handle that then they should buy a ticket elsewhere in the ground !!!

Applying that to ICT ... perhaps - if the rules allow - the 'singing section' could be designated 'safe standing', and allowed to stand, with other supporters being given the option to relocate if they wish?

If however, the SPL insist that it must be new areas, currently unused areas, or existing areas requiring retro-fitted to meet a certain criteria then yes, there will be some cost and I could understand a premium or at least the same price as elsewhere in the ground.

The positive thing in all this is that the SPL are now open to the basic concept ........

[Joe DiMaggio]

Possibly the first request the SPL will get will be from Ross County, will mean they won't have to upgrade (or downgrade even) their stadium and could just leave the terracing as it is?

[Scotty]

Possibly the first request the SPL will get will be from Ross County, will mean they won't have to upgrade (or downgrade even) their stadium and could just leave the terracing as it is?

Think they would still need the 6500 seats .... doubt that criteria changes ... just the idea that you can have safe standing areas in addition to meeting the minimum stadium criteria ... but it will be interesting to see how the discussion at SPL level may develop

[Renegade]

Apparently though, "safe standing" isn't like what ICT had before. It's this kind of thing -

Presumably that would be more costly than taking out the seats in the West Stand.

Edited December 19, 2011 by Renegade

[Scotty]

Thats what I mean ..... and I will say it again since it appears to be my phrase of the day .... the devil is in the detail ..... does it actually say we have to change seats? Is there a document that defines what is or is not "safe standing"? Does the SPL actually know or - as is usual - will they make it up as they go along?

Toronto FC has normal seats, pretty much the same as you see at ICT. The seats fold up, just like ICT, and they are deemed safe enough for standing in front of. The walkway is no wider than ICT, and the stadium is 3 times the size .... Presumably this type of seat passes the FIFA sniff test to allow standing, since MLS is part of CONCACAF, which in turn is part of FIFA .....

The seats in the pic above - are probably from a German stadium? and yes, I believe these were added to some stadiums in Europe to allow for standing in domestic competitions but sitting in European ones .... but are we simply assuming this is what we would have to have or is there actually any documented specs/rules to this effect ?

[PaderbornCaley]

If i decide to sit down in the 'safe standing area' will I be ejected from the stadium? Good move forward, but as previously mentioned, it won't quite be the same as terracing. Maybe like the picture from the German team - but I do like that concept. At least if you do require a seat at some point, it is there!

[Joe DiMaggio]

That is only safe standing in Germany. More so for Uefa games where terracing isn't allowed.

If a club in Scotland wants to use 'normal' terracing then I dont see why not, there is no rule or law to say what is or isnt safe. Will be interesting if County win the league and want to keep the jail end what will happen.

[givmeaccccc]

Cannot understand what all the debate is about. The Old Firm fans never sit when they come to Inverness so why spend time and money and all the hot air that is going to be spouted about this subject? I'll be interested to see if the Dons fans, assuming they travel in large numbers this weekend, stand or sit throughout the game. One thing is for sure the stewards won't challenge them. One of the reasons for thinking about this is that it may increase the crowds which is a load of rubbish. The only thing that will increase crowds is by reducing the entrance fee. A couple going to watch ICT versus the likes of Hamilton equals almost ?50 without buying a pie, or a bovril or a programme or a half time raffle or the bus to the game etc. ?50 is not value for money.

Also remember the reason for this and the poor souls who perished at Hillsborough, how quickly we forget.

[Joe DiMaggio]

And not all German stadiums appear to use the fold down seats that can be converted. Quick search game up with this one.

Neither do Dortmund, they convert their fully.

[Alex MacLeod]

What the new ruling says is that clubs can apply to the SPL to carry out a trial to see what suits and what problems are encountered. The local authority safety board also has to agree to what can happen. It could be that terracing with safety rails is acceptable. It could be the German folding seats scenario. It could be that, in our case, if we want to put a canopy over the west stand, and the fact that only about four or five rows of person can stand there, that would be seen as a safe option. The changes allow clubs to put a case for whatever they think fits and if approved by all concerned may happen. Different things will fit different stadium. Steep high stands such as at Tynecastle, I should imagine, will require some sort of anti surge barrier whereas our north and south stands may be seen as suitable as they are. What must be remembered in this debate is that anything that happens in the near future is experimental and the outcomes of the experiments, by the clubs that wish to partake, will determine the acceptible way forward.

[SMEE]

That is only safe standing in Germany. More so for Uefa games where terracing isn't allowed.

If a club in Scotland wants to use 'normal' terracing then I dont see why not, there is no rule or law to say what is or isnt safe. Will be interesting if County win the league and want to keep the jail end what will happen.

Id imagine Ross Co would have to have at least 6500 seats elsewhere in the stadium IF they didnt want to change the jail end from standing